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AR15 Preban Magazines - Proving Legal or Illegal

Marcus5aurelius

Marcus5aurelius

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I'm sure people have asked similar questions in the past, but I searched and could not find the answers I was looking for, so I apologize in advance. I also apologize for trying to make sense of MA laws, because we all know that they make no sense anyway.


For these questions, let's assume that law enforcement has confiscated some AR15 magazines and they have every possible resource available to them to prove they are illegal in nature. Also assume that they are willing to take as much time and effort as possible to come to their conclusion.

1.) I understand that mags can have external dating, internal dating, or no dating at all. Is a non dated mag still a liability?

2.) What other methods could be used to decide the legality of unmarked magazines? (Manufacturer, type of paint/coatings, construction of mags, etc)

3.) If you replace an unmarked preban magazine with a new floorplate, springs, and follower, could any of these parts make the magazine be considered postban? Would any of these new parts help create a case that the magazine is not in fact preban?

I understand that these laws are virtually never enforced, and that the average LEO would have no concept of what is legal or illegal when it comes to magazines. I am really only curious about the legal technicalities of this theoretical scenario.
 
To my knowledge, the Federal AWB basically said if it ain't marked and you claim it to be pre-ban, it's pre-ban. The MA AWB doesn't have this little carve-out. Enforcement is anyone's guess.
 
You are innocent until proven guilty. We start with that.

If you have an atypical stamped aluminum USGI undated magazine - it is presumed pre-ban. Now - assume you have replaced the floor plate, spring, follower, and refinished the magazine. That *could* be considered "manufacturing" - making the magazine post ban and illegal. Honestly there is no case law that I am aware of on this issue. But I've heard of this, but that is strictly hear-say.

Obviously if you have a magazine - like a pmag - in which manufacturing only occurred after the ban - then that is clearly an issue.

Honestly I think they only prosecute magazine ban violations in addition to other charges they already have you on. I've seen a lot of pmags at my local range. Seems no one gives a shit about the ban. It's a big joke actually. Can't tell you how many post ban S&W M&P rifles i see with flash suppressors and collapsible stocks too.

Myself.... I tend to play it safe. My lowers are all pre-ban and my mags are all undated USGI stamped aluminum. I have replaced the floor plates, springs, followers and Duracoated them though... So who knows if I'm a criminal or not...
 
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Mark,

Depends if it is an election year and if the DA is running a hard campaign or not! No kidding, if they want face-time in front of all the tv cameras they could "make an example of someone" even if there is no law violation.

One hazard I see mentioned all the time is "I replaced the floorplates"!

If you put a C-Products or P-mag floorplate on an otherwise unmarked mag, refinish it, etc. so it looks new . . . it is easy for a DA to assume it is a new post-ban felony mag. And at best I'd say you'd have a hard time proving otherwise in court. In spite of the law that says "presumption of innocence" that is just not how our criminal justice system swings these days.

There have been primary prosecutions in mag/AWB cases. TTBOMK it was when guns were being returned to the person and someone at the PD said "hey, that looks like a felony" and it went downhill from there.

I do have to ask, WHY do people replace floorplates? I can understand springs and followers, but I've only seen a couple of floorplates that were bent/damaged and in most cases they can easily be flattened. It's not like the floorplate is a part that will wear out!
 
LenS said:
Mark,

Depends if it is an election year and if the DA is running a hard campaign or not! No kidding, if they want face-time in front of all the tv cameras they could "make an example of someone" even if there is no law violation.

One hazard I see mentioned all the time is "I replaced the floorplates"!

If you put a C-Products or P-mag floorplate on an otherwise unmarked mag, refinish it, etc. so it looks new . . . it is easy for a DA to assume it is a new post-ban felony mag. And at best I'd say you'd have a hard time proving otherwise in court. In spite of the law that says "presumption of innocence" that is just not how our criminal justice system swings these days.

There have been primary prosecutions in mag/AWB cases. TTBOMK it was when guns were being returned to the person and someone at the PD said "hey, that looks like a felony" and it went downhill from there.

I do have to ask, WHY do people replace floorplates? I can understand springs and followers, but I've only seen a couple of floorplates that were bent/damaged and in most cases they can easily be flattened. It's not like the floorplate is a part that will wear out!
Click to expand...

To put on tacticool magpul floorplates.... dah..... I keep my original floorplates though... Every single one.... and I keep receipts for the followers, springs, floor plates, and Duracoat...
 
where are the goverment mags marked on the inside? is it easy to see? I want get some larger mags and have never looked into the markings before. I just have a lot of 5 and 10 mags. It is easier for bench rest shooting.
 
Gator9329 said:
where are the goverment mags marked on the inside? is it easy to see? I want get some larger mags and have never looked into the markings before. I just have a lot of 5 and 10 mags. It is easier for bench rest shooting.
Click to expand...

I have many mags that have no markings at all, inside or outside. A have a small number internally date stamped. And a few externally date stamped. But most have no markings at all. One mag had only an "04" on the inside. That was it's only marking. Concerned it could have been assumed to be dated 2004, I did my typical refinish job on it and gave it to a friend who lives in Maine.
 
ThePreBanMan said:
To put on tacticool magpul floorplates.... dah..... I keep my original floorplates though... Every single one.... and I keep receipts for the followers, springs, floor plates, and Duracoat...
Click to expand...

**** that. I go out of my way throw all of that shit away. It's none of anyone's business what I do with my LEGAL magazines. It's their problem if they want to try to put me in jail for owning something that's legal.

Most of this rumination in this thread is pointless anyways. If the state really wants to hook ANY of us, they will do it, and they will get away with it. Two words "MTBS Guy". All this gesticulating in the face of cases like that make it pretty much pointless.

-Mike
 
Well since the laws are so clear on this matter I can see why you would do that DrGrant. [wink]

I personally keep them as an insurance policy. Just in case - I can at least show that I purchased parts for the magazine - parts that a newer post ban magazine would not require. That's called reasonable doubt in my mind... But when it comes to prosecution - you're right. An overzealous DA won't care about things like facts.
 
ThePreBanMan said:
To put on tacticool magpul floorplates.... dah..... I keep my original floorplates though... Every single one.... and I keep receipts for the followers, springs, floor plates, and Duracoat...
Click to expand...

I guess we're different. Most of my AR mags look like they've been thru a war . . . and many have (Vietnam)! As long as they function reliably, the wear adds character in my mind.

Hell, I never even got receipts for most of mine, have so many that I have no idea which ones came from where either!
 
LenS said:
I guess we're different. Most of my AR mags look like they've been thru a war . . . and many have (Vietnam)! As long as they function reliably, the wear adds character in my mind.

Hell, I never even got receipts for most of mine, have so many that I have no idea which ones came from where either!
Click to expand...

same here most of mine are well worn and the few nicer ones i have dated wrapers for them.
 
ThePreBanMan said:
Well it can't hurt... Thats how I see it.
Click to expand...

Show me a case where a parts receipt helped someone in court and then I'll think it's a good idea. If the state is attempting to hook you up on an AWB charge the DA is gonna laugh at that receipt, it proves nothing. It doesn't show provenance of the magazine it just shows you bought a bunch of crap.

-Mike
 
this sucks . I can have three hundred rounds in 30 mags ok, but not 300 rounds in ten mags. I will just stay safe and mag drop often
 
drgrant said:
Show me a case where a parts receipt helped someone in court and then I'll think it's a good idea. If the state is attempting to hook you up on an AWB charge the DA is gonna laugh at that receipt, it proves nothing. It doesn't show provenance of the magazine it just shows you bought a bunch of crap.

-Mike
Click to expand...

Well that may all be true. But if keeping the original floor plates and receipts for the subsequent replacement parts makes me feel better about it - than so it shall be... Like I said before - It can't hurt. It may or may not help, but it can't hurt - and costs me no labor or money to do. So the question really becomes; why not?
 
LenS said:
Mark,

Depends if it is an election year and if the DA is running a hard campaign or not! No kidding, if they want face-time in front of all the tv cameras they could "make an example of someone" even if there is no law violation.

One hazard I see mentioned all the time is "I replaced the floorplates"!

If you put a C-Products or P-mag floorplate on an otherwise unmarked mag, refinish it, etc. so it looks new . . . it is easy for a DA to assume it is a new post-ban felony mag. And at best I'd say you'd have a hard time proving otherwise in court. In spite of the law that says "presumption of innocence" that is just not how our criminal justice system swings these days.

There have been primary prosecutions in mag/AWB cases. TTBOMK it was when guns were being returned to the person and someone at the PD said "hey, that looks like a felony" and it went downhill from there.

I do have to ask, WHY do people replace floorplates? I can understand springs and followers, but I've only seen a couple of floorplates that were bent/damaged and in most cases they can easily be flattened. It's not like the floorplate is a part that will wear out!
Click to expand...

Ranger plates.

I've bought some mags that were preban according to the info on arfcom and other sources - but once I fully wised up to the implications of what could happen - I only get mags with external date codes stamped on them.

I don't know what would happen if I ever got jammed up with a pre-ban mag with an obvious date code on it - that was refinished, had a new spring and follower - and a ranger plate - but at least the mag body would have a pre-ban date on it.
 
Many go on the assumption that no external/internal date stamp USGI mags are good to go. YMMV.

There are others that just don't care about the AWB/ mag limit...Saw someone at the range with a bunch of 30rnd Pmags...I just chuckled and said, "those look cool".

There are also a lot of police that have no idea that there is a mag limit...I have had police that "know the law" say I was fine so long as I had a CL-A NR license and didn't understand why I had 10rnd mags.[laugh]
 
hy2rogen said:
There are also a lot of police that have no idea that there is a mag limit...I have had police that "know the law" say I was fine so long as I had a CL-A NR license and didn't understand why I had 10rnd mags.[laugh]
Click to expand...
This.

It's trouble enough for most cops to nail down what activities are permitted with what license classes, what the legal definitions are for particular weapons (rifle, shotgun, and firearm) and that's we're most of the focus is laid.

My law book in my cruiser bag has over 30 pages dedicated to firearms and weapons offenses, including a half-dozen tables and charts. Plenty of places it talks about large capacity weapons and feeding devices, but nowhere does it get into pre- and post- ban distinction, nor is there any discussion of the AWB and what "evil features" are prohibited.
 
In recognition of the poltical correctness of this fine state, and in order to not hurt the feelings of any magazine, I suggest we stop referring to post ban mags as illegal, and begin referring to them as undocumented.
 

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