Atlantic Tactical - New Shop in Westwood MA

[Mr.E]

Finally got up there today. Nice new store, polite people, advertised pistols were in stock (except for the Sig 229 - not in yet) and for sale to civilians like myself.

But now the bad news: Atlantic Tactical tacks on a $25.00 background check service fee on every gun sale. This took me completely by surprise as I had never been charged such a fee before. Maybe it is common practice in other states, but I'd never run into it before in MA. The fact that Atlantic Tactical is an out-of-state chain may have something to do with it.

Just be aware of this going in because they do not tell you in advance and it isn't posted anywhere. The fee is slipped in at the end. If you don't ask they won't even mention it. I only found out because of questions being asked by another customer confused by the higher than expected amount of his bill.

Anyway, I went away a bit disappointed. The sale prices are still very good even with the service fee added, but not quite as good as I had been led to believe. I'm a lot more price sensitive than most folks so take that into account. At their low grand opening advertised price, another plastic S&W pistol kinda made sense. But with the $25 fee added, it would have come up to more than I paid at FSGuns for a similar gun during their own recent sale. Didn't see much point in that.

Would never do business with a store that imposed any such fee, unless their prices were ridiculously low. I have never even heard of such a thing. Too early to call them scumbags??

 

[Len-2A Training]

So basically, you've got to figure +$25.00 on any gun purchases. Just can't see why they don't just add it onto their price straight up ?

Either they are confused (possible) or they want to APPEAR cheaper when they really aren't with the added "profit fee".

I have a query into an atty at EOPS for clarification on the legality.

My problem is that I sat thru all the hearings on Ch. 180 (Acts of 1998), read the law, studied most of the MA gun laws, etc. I recall either reading or hearing (at one of the legislative hearings perhaps) that NO fees would/could be charged to us to do NICS and MIRCS/FA-10 by dealers on a purchase (as opposed to a FTF transfer at a dealer). So I've asked someone who probably has the resources to find if it is specifically mentioned anywhere in a law or regulation. When I hear anything definitive, I'll post a response.

 

[Len-2A Training]

PA charges dealers $5.00 to perform a PICS check, which includes a NICS check and a state level background check. The Brady Law allows states to act as the Point of Contact (POC) for NICS checks. FL does something similar. NJ charges $15.00 plus tax )of course) for a background check. Then there is this thread from right here on NES.

The fee is just $25.00 pure profit for them. They don't have to pay sales tax on it, it's probably not even taxable as income.

It's like the fees that a lot of car dealers used to charge. "ADP" used to stand for Added Dealer Profit that they'd tack on for popular models.

They don't even have to make a phone call any longer,



Unless they had a gun I absolutely had to have, which would not be a Shield, I wouldn't bother buying from them.

Agreed, pure profit. True that they don't pay the state sales tax on this. Depending on how they list it on the invoice, if they list it as a fee/service it is legally NOT sales-taxable and if they charge the customer sales tax on this amount (as the Rat did) it's a violation of law and reportable to the AG consumer fraud department.

As a business owner, I can tell you that legally any fees charged are taxable as income to the business. AT isn't a fly-by-night local business and thus I doubt they play games and don't declare it as income.

 

[EJFudd]

So basically, you've got to figure +$25.00 on any gun purchases.

Exactly right. Know that going in and shop/price/buy accordingly.

Just can't see why they don't just add it onto their price straight up ?

This is a chain with a website doing business in multiple states with apparently uniform advertised pricing. MA store "grand opening specials" aside, this is their standard practice in other states that allow it so I think they just brought the fee here without even thinking about the fact that no one else in MA does that sort of thing. It just kind of shocked me because I had never encountered a background check service fee ever before in MA or elsewhere. If it is illegal in MA, they obviously don't know that yet.

Would never do business with a store that imposed any such fee, unless their prices were ridiculously low. I have never even heard of such a thing. Too early to call them scumbags??

Their grand opening sale prices are still quite good even with the $25 fee added in. Even their regular (non-sale) prices seem pretty good. I think the sale price on the Shield is currently beating everyone else in MA even with the $25 fee added on. If I needed another Shield (which I don't), I might head on back there before the sale ends. Once you get over the shock of what they're trying to pull, practicality sets in. I wouldn't call them scumbags just yet... maybe just a little sneaky and uneducated about doing business in MA.

 

[rkwjunior]

Remind me never to purchase a firearm from them if there gonna tack on fee's for nothing, if they had to pay Obama or Deval then it unavoidable.
Just another money making scam, seems very liberal-esque to me, or is this the conservative version of capitalism??

So that means if you do a transfer you need to tack on another $25 to the transfer fee??... No thanx.

Ammo seems cheap though.

 

[EJFudd]

Either they are confused (possible) or they want to APPEAR cheaper when they really aren't with the added "profit fee".

I have a query into an atty at EOPS for clarification on the legality.

My problem is that I sat thru all the hearings on Ch. 180 (Acts of 1998), read the law, studied most of the MA gun laws, etc. I recall either reading or hearing (at one of the legislative hearings perhaps) that NO fees would/could be charged to us to do NICS and MIRCS/FA-10 by dealers on a purchase (as opposed to a FTF transfer at a dealer). So I've asked someone who probably has the resources to find if it is specifically mentioned anywhere in a law or regulation. When I hear anything definitive, I'll post a response.

Any further news on this Len? I'd really love to know if this practice is illegal in MA or just universally unpopular.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Any further news on this Len? I'd really love to know if this practice is illegal in MA or just universally unpopular.

FRB Counsel has yet to respond to that question.

I did just now send the same question to another potential source of info on this matter.

Thanks for jogging my memory, although I did remember this one since Michaela sent me an Email last night answering most of my other questions.

 

[92G]

IMO its crappy to push such a fee on an unsuspecting buyer. If its made clear beforehand then whatever it is what it is. But once the NICS check is complete its shitty to then tack an extra fee.....yeah thats junk i agree.

 

[scheming]

Dropped by today and asked about the $25 fee. They said it was a transfer fee and there is no fee for background check.

Also, the sale Len mentioned is now extended to the 31st.

 

[Quiet]

Under the law, retailers don't pay sales tax, they collect sales tax and remit it to the Commiewealth. They are explicitly not allowed to pay the sales tax for the customer.

If you ever get a deal that "includes sales tax" if they are doing it right they reduce the sales price and tack on the tax to reach the advertised (or agreed to) price.

There are ramifications to this so it's not a "difference without a distinction."

 

[Garys]

This is a distinction without a difference. Other than the clerks time to process the NICS check and paperwork, there is no "fee" to do a transfer. I've never had a dealer tack on a transfer fee for a gun I bought from him. If you walk in and ask the FFL to do a transfer between you and another person, that's one thing. He's providing you with a service and a fee for that is reasonable.

This is just a way for them to make an additional $25.00 on a sale. The only way I would look at it is that no matter what price they are advertising, the real price is $25.00 more.

Dropped by today and asked about the $25 fee. They said it was a transfer fee and there is no fee for background check.

Also, the sale Len mentioned is now extended to the 31st.

 

[Quiet]

My comment was limited to sales tax. However as far as a service fee vs product cost, if I were sure I wasn't going to need to return the gun or have another issue with it, I'd just as soon pay $25 for the gun and a $299 service fee as the service fee isn't taxable.

 

[EJFudd]

Dropped by today and asked about the $25 fee. They said it was a transfer fee and there is no fee for background check.

Then I guess they are lying on their website:

In-Store Purchase Background Check Fees:

• New Cumberland, PA Location
  $25.00
• Philadelphia, PA Location
  $25.00
• Queens, NY Location
  No Background Check Fee
• Somerset, NJ Location
  $25.00

Or have they "redefined" the fee to avoid it being a potentially illegal fee here in MA?

 

[Len-2A Training]

My comment was limited to sales tax. However as far as a service fee vs product cost, if I were sure I wasn't going to need to return the gun or have another issue with it, I'd just as soon pay $25 for the gun and a $299 service fee as the service fee isn't taxable.

But I'll bet most merchants would charge the tax on both! That was my first argument with DOR a-hole back ~1970 when I went in to DOR to get a Sales Tax merchant account . . . he actually told me to charge tax on service as well as goods and I argued with him. They are tax COLLECTORS, they will collect blood from a stone if they can get it.

It's a scummy deal that AT is pulling in MA. Some states charge the merchant for background checks, MA does NOT do this so there is no excuse for hitting the buyer with a fee (unless it is a transferred in transaction).

 

[Another_David]

Dropped by today and asked about the $25 fee. They said it was a transfer fee and there is no fee for background check.

Also, the sale Len mentioned is now extended to the 31st.

So does that mean I can stop by and do a person to person transfer for $25? I'm guessing NO! It sounds like it's a special fee--a surcharge applied only when you buy a firearm from them--and not a service you can purchase separately.

It's their business and as far as I am concerned they can do what they want but it seems a little sleazy when the price changes from the tag to the register like that when the store knows everyone is paying $25 more.

 

[EJFudd]

... if I were sure I wasn't going to need to return the gun or have another issue with it, I'd just as soon pay $25 for the gun and a $299 service fee as the service fee isn't taxable.

Can anyone confirm for certain that they aren't charging MA sales tax on their background check service fee?

It's a scummy deal that AT is pulling in MA. Some states charge the merchant for background checks, MA does NOT do this so there is no excuse for hitting the buyer with a fee (unless it is a transferred in transaction).

I'd love to know how many of their firearms customers are objecting to the $25 fee vs. how many are just swallowing hard and accepting it (or not even noticing it until they get home!)? I walked out after hearing about it when that other customer questioned his bill... but like I said earlier, I am much more "cost sensitive" than most.

 

[EJFudd]

So does that mean I can stop by and do a person to person transfer for $25? I'm guessing NO! It sounds like it's a special fee--a surcharge applied only when you buy a firearm from them--and not a service you can purchase separately.

It's their business and as far as I am concerned they can do what they want but it seems a little sleazy when the price changes from the tag to the register like that when the store knows everyone is paying $25 more.

Here is their website FAQ on firearms purchases and transfers: http://www.atlantictactical.com/gunorderfaq

In short:

• $25.00 in-store purchase background check service fee
• $50.00 third-party transfer fee (presumably includes the $25.00 background check service fee)

 

[Another_David]

But I'll bet most merchants would charge the tax on both! That was my first argument with DOR a-hole back ~1970 when I went in to DOR to get a Sales Tax merchant account . . . he actually told me to charge tax on service as well as goods and I argued with him. They are tax COLLECTORS, they will collect blood from a stone if they can get it.

It's a scummy deal that AT is pulling in MA. Some states charge the merchant for background checks, MA does NOT do this so there is no excuse for hitting the buyer with a fee (unless it is a transferred in transaction).

the sales tax determinations are extremely complex and I agree that when in doubt, the state will rule PAY ME rather than keep your money!

however in all fairness, many of a business has tried to creatively structure their pricing to avoid sales tax and in some instances it's legit and in some it's just BS.

If you can't ever sell the service separately from the product it's usually not a "service" but part of the taxable sale. So does this store ever just charge someone $25 for a background check without selling a firearm direct to a consumer in MA when sales tax applies? I'm guess NO. Thus, it's not a service but a price surcharge and thus taxable.

 

[glockforlife]

I just talked with Lenny, the Store Manager. No more background check service fee and no transfer fee (except on out-of-state transfers). The end price is the counter price of the gun plus MA sales tax.

 

[Another_David]

I just talked with Lenny, the Store Manager. No more background check service fee and no transfer fee (except on out-of-state transfers). The end price is the counter price of the gun plus MA sales tax.

First, thanks for making a phone call and saving us hours of fuddly griping.

Second, hurrah for Lenny!

 

[Billsail]

I just talked with Lenny, the Store Manager. No more background check service fee and no transfer fee (except on out-of-state transfers). The end price is the counter price of the gun plus MA sales tax.

I suspect they're following this thread. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they didn't know the MA law, and took their orders and policies from the corporate office.

 

[EJFudd]

I suspect they're following this thread. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they didn't know the MA law, and took their orders and policies from the corporate office.

Or so many potential buyers walked out disgusted or objected to the surprise fee tacked on their bill that they had no other choice.

I'll believe it when I get it directly from the horse's mouth, although I probably won't be going back there anytime soon.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I just talked with Lenny, the Store Manager. No more background check service fee and no transfer fee (except on out-of-state transfers). The end price is the counter price of the gun plus MA sales tax.

+ Rep given and wish I could give you more for doing this!

I suspect they're following this thread. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they didn't know the MA law, and took their orders and policies from the corporate office.

I would have given them the benefit of the doubt BUT having met and talked with the Asst Mgr (don't recall name) . . . he worked for AAA Police Supply for a few years, there is no way in hell that he didn't know that this wasn't required or customary in MA. The younger fellow I spoke with moved into MA to work there, so he wouldn't have known MA laws/rules/regs/way of doing business.

Or so many potential buyers walked out disgusted or objected to the surprise fee tacked on their bill that they had no other choice.

I'll believe it when I get it directly from the horse's mouth, although I probably won't be going back there anytime soon.

I was waiting for EOPS Legal Dept answer before going in there to chat with them. And with the fee I had no desire to go back there for anything on general principles. I'm not a street cop anymore so most of their supplies/clothing is of no real interest to me, just like years go by without my stopping at AAA Police Supply (and Mark treats me not too badly) for the same reason.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I stopped in at Atlantic Tactical yesterday and spoke with Andy (I think he's the Asst. Mgr).

- Ammo sales to anyone with MA LTC/FID, EXCEPT the Ranger series of ammo (restricted to LE only due to contract with Winchester).
- Officially they only carry Winchester ammo, but occasionally a shipment appears from corporate with other brands (they had AE .223 at $8.95/box yesterday).
- Andy says that you can order ammo shipped to store for pickup. He's unsure if corporate will charge you shipping to the store or not.
- All guns are restricted to LE sales only.

Interestingly they had signs that BATFE asked them to put up . . . no use of cell phones at the gun counter. Apparently in other parts of the country in particular, people are using their cell phones at the gun counter to facilitate straw purchases, thus BATFE has been asking some (all?) gun shops to prohibit use of cell phones while at the gun counter. Yup, that'll solve the straw purchase problem I'm sure!

 

[Cabin Fever]

- All guns are restricted to LE sales only

So they can bid on contracts with Jersey City and other anti2A governments. F them. Spend your money elsewhere.

 

[Len-2A Training]

So they can bid on contracts with Jersey City and other anti2A governments. F them. Spend your money elsewhere.

Not the reason.

Mfr authorized LE dealers get special pricing on those guns, but must ensure that they are only sold to those qualified. For instance LE price on Glocks are supposed to be $398.20 for standard sizes (17,22,19, 23). I'm told that is approx. cost to a regular FFL, so the LE dealers have to buy them cheaper than that to sell them over the counter for those prices. [In Free America, LE pricing is available to EMS/FF/Mil/GSSF members for Glock and similar for most other mfrs.]

Bidding on gov't contracts is a different beast and every mfr will work with a dealer who does that separate from any other pricing structure . . . as FET is NOT charged for agency purchases (ONLY). LEOs still pay FET and sales taxes as well.

As for what "social" issues that any agency/gov't entity demands of their suppliers (something I vehemently disagree with), that's a totally different issue that each company has to address or tell that entity to go F themselves.

 

[Another_David]

I stopped in at Atlantic Tactical yesterday and spoke with Andy (I think he's the Asst. Mgr).

- Ammo sales to anyone with MA LTC/FID, EXCEPT the Ranger series of ammo (restricted to LE only due to contract with Winchester).
- Officially they only carry Winchester ammo, but occasionally a shipment appears from corporate with other brands (they had AE .223 at $8.95/box yesterday).
- Andy says that you can order ammo shipped to store for pickup. He's unsure if corporate will charge you shipping to the store or not.
- All guns are restricted to LE sales only.

Interestingly they had signs that BATFE asked them to put up . . . no use of cell phones at the gun counter. Apparently in other parts of the country in particular, people are using their cell phones at the gun counter to facilitate straw purchases, thus BATFE has been asking some (all?) gun shops to prohibit use of cell phones while at the gun counter. Yup, that'll solve the straw purchase problem I'm sure!

you mean we have an 86 thread post about a gun store that ONLY sells guns to LE?

WTF

dam anti-civilians

 

[Len-2A Training]

you mean we have an 86 thread post about a gun store that ONLY sells guns to LE?

WTF

dam anti-civilians

Originally they sold to anyone. When their contracts were up for renewal, they opted to sign new contracts to only carry the LE dealer line of products. The shop is really a 100% "cop shop". Other than cleaning supplies, knives and lights there isn't much there for the average Joe! If you want to look like a Ninja dressed in 5.11 have at it.

Realize in states that don't restrict retail handgun sales, "LE sales" includes ANYONE in public safety roles and Military (including retirees of both MIL and LE IIRC). It's due to the restrictions in MGL that they can't offer guns to those other groups.

 

[Cabin Fever]

Not the reason.

Mfr authorized LE dealers get special pricing on those guns, but must ensure that they are only sold to those qualified. For instance LE price on Glocks are supposed to be $398.20 for standard sizes (17,22,19, 23). I'm told that is approx. cost to a regular FFL, so the LE dealers have to buy them cheaper than that to sell them over the counter for those prices. [In Free America, LE pricing is available to EMS/FF/Mil/GSSF members for Glock and similar for most other mfrs.]

Bidding on gov't contracts is a different beast and every mfr will work with a dealer who does that separate from any other pricing structure . . . as FET is NOT charged for agency purchases (ONLY). LEOs still pay FET and sales taxes as well.

As for what "social" issues that any agency/gov't entity demands of their suppliers (something I vehemently disagree with), that's a totally different issue that each company has to address or tell that entity to go F themselves.

Can they not have a section of guns that are LE only, like I see at many shops? Between this policy, and their bid on the Jersey City contract I want nothing to do with them.

 

[Billsail]

you mean we have an 86 thread post about a gun store that ONLY sells guns to LE?

WTF

dam anti-civilians

When they finally got all their permits, they were selling to anyone with an LTC, as long as it wasn't an LEO only, restricted firearm. Why the change in policy? I can only speculate.

Edit: Read LenS post.