I think they're ripping us off!

magpug said:
Maybe if people were not grabbing just to grab there WOULD be ammo.Also posting so and so has some and then whine 10 minutes later that is gone. WTH. Wait til 11/4 after the arseholes get in. Just saying.
Click to expand...

Screw that.

I was at a gun shop a couple of weeks ago and they had M855, 2 cases of it for $350 a K..I don't even like M855(prefer M193)..I bought all he had because it was a good price.
 
Camhabib said:
it’s taught and known that during emergencies (such as a worldwide pandemic), the standard principles of “supply / demand pricing” no longer apply.
Click to expand...
They apply by definition, but abnormal situations prevent a natural equilibrium of multiple suppliers competing.

Where is it taught that the law of supply and demand is suspended? Price gouging is responding to a change in the demand curve.

Is selling generators you bought in MA for 2x retail after you drive the to Louisiana after a hurricane gouging or supply and demand?

What about a drug company charging $90K for the pills to cure Hep-C because you are in the US where it is worth that to be free of the deadly disease, but only $1000 in what trump would call shithole countries?

Or how about selling a house for twice what you paid for it after holding it for only a few years because you area got "hot"?

What about an ambulance driver saying "My Bezos, there is no other ambulance within miles, you won't make it without my help, my free market supply/demand price to you for this ride is $50B, please sign here and come with me if you want to live"?

Technically, that last transaction meets the definition of supply and demand, though with a bit of college education/new car/pharmaceutical pricing thrown in.

Gouging laws are an attempt to repeal the law of supply and demand and prevent the product from going to the buyer who values it most.
 
enbloc said:
If he is getting only 20 boxes in at $14 a box , I'll bet he'll limit sales to 1 box per customer. Sounds like a loss-leader...

$14-dollar-a-box 9mm ammo on the shelf...
Click to expand...
LOL!!!!! [laugh] I'm betting you're right. Unless the OP is super-bosom-buddy or family with that LGS owner, I'll bet that a full case sale is out of the question. :cool:
 
drgrant said:
....likely have buying habits that make it more likely that they will get screwed every time....
Click to expand...
i think your right on here...but i get screwed every time cause i won't travel to find a deal. i live between 4seasons and collectors and only go there out of convenience, not price, so i pay whatever they ask. usually it's not too bad, safe to say competitive. ts is certainly convenient also. i only buy cases there, i've never bought one from column a and 2 from column b. for the case lot + free shipping and dropped at the door, can't beat it. my old body is beat and doesn't need the heavy lifting.
 
EJFudd said:
LOL!!!!! [laugh] I'm betting you're right. Unless the OP is super-bosom-buddy or family with that LGS owner, I'll bet that a full case sale is out of the question. :cool:
Click to expand...
I wonder if the order is for 20 cases not 'boxes'...?
20 'boxes' equals one 1,000-round case.
 
Camhabib said:
A new gun owner or someone with an upcoming match with absolutely no ammo or would consider a box essential.
Click to expand...

Exactly. So what is better? Keeping ammo prices low, and not having anything for the new people to purchase because the 'experienced' gun owners bought it all, or having some ammo available at such a high price that long time gun owners won't touch it?
 
Mxracer239y said:
Exactly. So what is better? Keeping ammo prices low, and not having anything for the new people to purchase because the 'experienced' gun owners bought it all, or having some ammo available at such a high price that long time gun owners won't touch it?
Click to expand...
In all honesty, I would rather have the ammo in the hands of Americans who are prepared to use it against "Enemies; Foreign & Domestic"
While important, 'new gunners' are not the most likely candidates to achieve that.
As 'Experienced' shooters; It is Our duty to teach them.

Competency with firearms is only half of the equation...
~Enbloc
 
Last edited:
People are still buying it. I've been checking Target sports for A friend of mine. He just purchased his first gun yesterday. Not even any high price defense 9 mm. I have a feeling this isn't going away anytime soon.
 
mousegunfan said:
If they want to stay in business after the hoarding is over they should not rip off their customers.
Click to expand...
Are the distributors selling at the same prices as pre-COVID?

I would like to understand if there is a small increase at the factory, a small increase at the disti and an additional increase at the store. Or if it is mostly all at the store.
 
Broccoli Iglesias said:
Are the distributors selling at the same prices as pre-COVID?

I would like to understand if there is a small increase at the factory, a small increase at the disti and an additional increase at the store. Or if it is mostly all at the store.
Click to expand...

The supply issue starts with the manufacturer, and I doubt any of them think it’s worth scaling up for what could be a one or two year shortage. I doubt anyone is sitting on years old inventory. So they have additional costs to increase production, are not just the employee’s wages, but the employer’s share of FICA, federal and state unemployment, additional workers comp, additional employer’s portion of health insurance (if eligible), training, materials, shipping and distribution costs, etc.

It costs money to increase production, so it costs more to get it to wholesalers or in the distribution channel, and therefore costs more for the TSUSAs of the world and the LGS’s to sell to the end user. Someone’s bull has to get gored in this equation, and since the margins are thin enough to begin with, those additional costs are paid by us (collectively, the shooting community).
 
citoriguy said:
The supply issue starts with the manufacturer, and I doubt any of them think it’s worth scaling up for what could be a one or two year shortage. I doubt anyone is sitting on years old inventory. So they have additional costs to increase production, are not just the employee’s wages, but the employer’s share of FICA, federal and state unemployment, additional workers comp, additional employer’s portion of health insurance (if eligible), training, materials, shipping and distribution costs, etc.

It costs money to increase production, so it costs more to get it to wholesalers or in the distribution channel, and therefore costs more for the TSUSAs of the world and the LGS’s to sell to the end user. Someone’s bull has to get gored in this equation, and since the margins are thin enough to begin with, those additional costs are paid by us (collectively, the shooting community).
Click to expand...
I doubt manufacturers increased cost so much. Unless raw materials are more expensive.

I also doubt the disti is messing with costs (but I never dealt with this type of disti, I deal with Distributors for tech companies).

My guess is the highest % increase is at the retailer.

And that's just supply and demand.
 
Broccoli Iglesias said:
I doubt manufacturers increased cost so much. Unless raw materials are more expensive.

I also doubt the disti is messing with costs (but I never dealt with this type of disti, I deal with Distributors for tech companies).

My guess is the highest % increase is at the retailer.

And that's just supply and demand.
Click to expand...

I really doubt that TSUSA and Four Seasons and Shooters Outpost are getting rich off this ammo scare. But that’s just my opinion.

Maybe we should have futures contracts for ammo. We can trade them on the Chicago Merc right alongside pork bellies and corn futures!
 
citoriguy said:
I really doubt that TSUSA and Four Seasons and Shooters Outpost are getting rich off this ammo scare. But that’s just my opinion.

Maybe we should have futures contracts for ammo. We can trade them on the Chicago Merc right alongside pork bellies and corn futures!
Click to expand...
Screw those guys. We can create an exchange.
 
Camhabib said:
Every time someone posts about how TS is overcharging for ammo compared to most every local shop, invariably the armchair economists in the room start mindlessly going off about “supply and demand.” Just as a quick FYI for anyone who hasn’t had a chance to speak to an actual economist lately, it’s taught and known that during emergencies (such as a worldwide pandemic), the standard principles of “supply / demand pricing” no longer apply. The example that was given to me is that if my child was sick and it was $1k, $100k, $10m for the treatment, would there be any price that I could come up with that sum of money and say no to? If the answer is that I’d pay regardless, that’s how economists define pricing as a “predatory” situation.

Now ammo isn’t considered an essential life saving treatment, and we’d all say no to a $100 box of 9mm, but for many with an addiction to shooting, people who compete, those who have a “stack deep” compulsion, who firearm owners who have no choice, even if it was $100 a box, they’d likely still buy. This is what makes TS selling a $14 box of ammo for $20 less “supply / demand” and more “predatory.”
Click to expand...
Lol not sure if serious. There’s absolutely nothing forcing the consumer to buy ammo, and a few boxes at 20 bucks is still going to get you more than enough ammo to put a pile of antifa rioter carcasses on your front lawn if it ever came down to that.... this isn’t anything like guys showing up illegally selling junk grade generators during the ice storm or something. Also it is trivially easy for someone to argue here that jacking the price to the point where the bulk buyer gets cold feet, makes ammo available to MORE people not less. Which is morally more offensive? Cheap ammo but none to buy, or an exponentially larger # of people being able to at least get a small cache of more expensive ammo to get by on.... up to a point, jacking the price actually increases overall availability. At $20/box few will stockpile but many might still easily buy 3-5 boxes if they had nothing. 5 boxes at 20/per is what, a few tanks of gas? Oh no, new gun owners not going to plink on the cheap, I can think of worse problems.... like them having a gun and nothing to fire out of it at all.... You really think this is price gouging? Lmao. you’re obviously very inexperienced with what’s going on here.... During the Obamascares flippers were selling shit like cases of 5.56 at nearly $1/round.... Basically by that point most LGS had long reached the abandonment mark.... and stopped buying ammo because the base price was too retarded... other than having maybe a small holdback amount for a new gun buyers... Otherwise the risks were too great in terms of being stuck with overpriced shit..,.
 
citoriguy said:
I really doubt that TSUSA and Four Seasons and Shooters Outpost are getting rich off this ammo scare. But that’s just my opinion.

Maybe we should have futures contracts for ammo. We can trade them on the Chicago Merc right alongside pork bellies and corn futures!
Click to expand...
They likely made waaay more at the beginning than now... now there simply isn’t enough supply to meet demand and profits suffer because the volume of ammo moved vs time has dropped in a huge way....
 
Broccoli Iglesias said:
Screw those guys. We can create an exchange.
Click to expand...
Lol It already exists it’s called a buyer group. Problem is most of the good ones you got to put up like six figures to get started.... If I won Powerball the first thing I would do is basically start an ammo distribution business, and I’d cultivate enough buying power that I was sending my own trucks to the US ammo factories, or importing entire 20 or 40 foot containers of ammo.... You need a good chunk of capital to do that very effectively though, and obviously doing it right now would be the worst time to start doing it LOL....
 
drgrant said:
Lol It already exists it’s called a buyer group. Problem is most of the good ones you got to put up like six figures to get started.... If I won Powerball the first thing I would do is basically start an ammo distribution business, and I’d cultivate enough buying power that I was sending my own trucks to the US ammo factories, or importing entire 20 or 40 foot containers of ammo.... You need a good chunk of capital to do that very effectively though, and obviously doing it right now would be the worst time to start doing it LOL....
Click to expand...
Distribution is a great way of making money without having to create anything.

I always thought about becoming a disti, but for software. Since it is software, they don't even need to keep an inventory, lol.

If I could get a couple of somewhat technical peopled to join me, I would be doing it right now.
 
when i had my ffl, and it was quite a while ago, you made no money on the gun sale. the peripheral add ons were your money makers...ammo, holsters, reloading components & cleaning equipment. the original sale item, the firearm, needed to be competitively priced to snag the customer. i really find if unbelievable...if a shop had a distributor cut him a super price on a highly desirable and scarce commodity such as 9 mm ammo and he can undercut other retailers by 6 bucks/box rather than do what every other retail establishment is doing, taking advantage of the current situation and marking up the price, this guy is the worst businessman ever or should be elevated to sainthood in the church of the skinflint.
 
Maybe TSUSA is looking ahead and thinking if the election goes the wrong way, their business could very well be significantly crippled by a new administration in very short order.

One of many factors at play here.
 
OnTheRoad said:
Maybe TSUSA is looking ahead and thinking if the election goes the wrong way, their business could very well be significantly crippled by a new administration in very short order. One of many factors at play here.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah! [puke2] The Godforsaken Dims are going to go FR on us if crazy old Uncle Joe wins and the Senate falls into Dim control:

"Rep. Hank Johnson, a Georgia Democrat who sits on the House Judiciary Committee, on Jan. 30 introduced H.R. 5717, which would, among other items, ban the purchasing and possession of assault weapons. Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., introduced in February the Senate version of the bill, S.3254."
Taxes and bans galore. [angry2]
 
citoriguy said:
The supply issue starts with the manufacturer, and I doubt any of them think it’s worth scaling up for what could be a one or two year shortage. I doubt anyone is sitting on years old inventory. So they have additional costs to increase production, are not just the employee’s wages, but the employer’s share of FICA, federal and state unemployment, additional workers comp, additional employer’s portion of health insurance (if eligible), training, materials, shipping and distribution costs, etc.

It costs money to increase production, so it costs more to get it to wholesalers or in the distribution channel, and therefore costs more for the TSUSAs of the world and the LGS’s to sell to the end user. Someone’s bull has to get gored in this equation, and since the margins are thin enough to begin with, those additional costs are paid by us (collectively, the shooting community).
Click to expand...

A friend of mine has a FFL at the mill. I can see wholesale cost on ammo. Wholesale prices have NOT gone up. This is purely dealers taking advantage of a shifting demand curve.
 
I get it guys! I understand if some one will pay, they'll keep the prices up. MY POINT was my little guy LGS got the same ammo coming that TGUSA got and is selling at his regular price of $14 a box rather than $20 - $25 a box that everyone else is charging. I always believed that Capitalism wasn't fair and the Gov't should do something about it.
 
At the risk of inserting facts into an emotional debate...

Manufacturers sell to distributors who sell to dealers who sell to the public. That is the basic supply chain for guns and ammo.

Some manufacturers will bypass some of the intermediate steps under certain conditions but this may or may not give financial benefit to the recipient. For example, I am can buy directly from Anderson or go through distribution. It is slightly cheaper if I go direct as long as I am purchasing $1500+ of product. Wilson combat on the other hand it is always cheaper to go through distribution no matter how much I buy direct. Sig Sauer it is the same price either way.

Distributors fall into at least 3 categories (I will use 3 for this example)
1) tier 1
2) not tier 1
3) specialty

Tier 1 are big the biggest US distributors that carry a wide selection of product including guns, ammo, accessories, sporting goods, etc. These all tend to be run roughly the same. Same basic pricing out the door to dealers. They have one physical inventory and virtual inventory. The physical is broken into multiple virtual. Average dealer sees one view. Big boxes and national chains see another view (more stuff). For example, official Stocking Glock dealers can see more stuff available than regular dealers. So improved selection. Pricing is still essentially the same as like MAP (minimum advertised price), manufacturers set a minimum price that distributors sell at (indirectly to avoid anti trust crap) and the tier 1s essentially all sell at the minimum price.

Not tier 1 are wannabe tier 1 distributors. They dont have national reach or have limited capitalization. They are not price competitive. They sell above minimum on a lot of stuff or always charge shipping or something else that makes them less desirable. They usually dont have national chain customers and target small gun shops. They dont have as wide a selection like they dont sell ammo or they dont carry certain brands or... They will have items in inventory when the tier 1s dont because they have unfavorable terms and are a distributor of last resort. Some gun shops get enamored with the more personal service they offer and buy everything from these not tier 1, but this hurts their bottom line (higher costs).

The tier 1 and not tier 1 tend to all have the same metrics. Inventory turns. Buy it and sell it as fast as possible. Inventory sitting around is bad because the capital or warehouse space could have been used to make money on something that moves quickly. Sell fast.

Tier 1 and not tier 1 are out of stock on everything. Their reserves are gone. All they can sell now is what comes in on the next truck. This rarely makes it to open inventory and goes to back orders from the national chains/big box stores. If a small dealer gets anything it is a miracle. I have back orders on ammo from multiple tier 1s. Some are just canceling my back orders outright saying they dont know if/when they will fulfill and if they do they cannot promise pricing. Some have them on backorder still since March and I have seen zero product. Demand is higher than supply and only the big boys are getting it.

Specialty are what the name sounds like. The are narrow in some area. For example a ammo only distributor. They tend to not be about inventory turns but about always having the desired product. They will buy oddball stuff and store it until it sells. They will buy containers and containers of common ammo at a rate higher than they know they will sell it. Then when a shortage hits, they have product. They charge typical prices for common stuff up and until we hit a shortage situation. They are built for pandemics and democrats being elected. They have the 7.5x55 swiss in stock with 10 options but also have 9mm in stock right now.

They are now selling ammo they have been stock piling since the last rush on ammo. No, they are not selling it for the same price they did before the pandemic. They have storage cost and capital carrying cost and they are in this for the profit. Their business model includes stockpiling for the shortage cases and making money on it. Their prices are up. BUT they can supply TSUSA and others (at higher prices) and keep their customers happy. They win and their customers win. And you pay more because it costs more. Be glad someone was stockpiling excess supply during good times so that ammo is available now when demand is greater than production.

And no, this is not theoretical. I know of a specialty distributor that is currently shipping 2018 pallets of ammo to their customers and making the profit they deserve. And they will run out soon and if supply/demand does not get in sync prices will jump even more.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Concerns Grow Over ISIS-K Attack in the US; Former Top General Says, 'I Think This Is Inevitable'
Replies
18
Views
438
G4Y4HK
G
How Democrats Think Suppressors Work
Replies
9
Views
376
Nightshift
Nightshift
I'm not sure what to think of this
2
Replies
33
Views
692
chris_1001
chris_1001
I think he spoke for a lot of us.
Replies
22
Views
1K
Blackbeard83
Blackbeard83
House Republicans sell us out
2 3 4
Replies
114
Views
3K
EJFudd
EJFudd
Back
Top Bottom