IDF to replace Tavor with Israeli made AR

40 Creedmoor fan said:
Licensed from IWI. Manufactured in Ukraine. Called Fort-224

armourersbench.com

Ukrainian Tavors – Fort-221 / Fort-224

In this video/article we’ll examine Ukraine’s other bullpup – the Fort-221 – the Ukrainian Tavor. In a recent video/article we looked at the Ukrainian designed and produced IPI Vu…
armourersbench.com armourersbench.com
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Are they mostly ceremonial marching rifles? Haven't seen a single one in real time war footage
 
40 Creedmoor fan said:
This one is more recent. It does have a couple of nuggets of information. One that the author is cleverly alluding to is that Israel tried several times to switch to home grown rifle systems such as Galil and Tavor. These are two very different rifles systems so one has to wonder why would Israel keep going back to foreign-made M16's and M4s. That is until we put two and two together. For the past 40 years the US has been providing ~3-5B in annual aid to Israel. The aid never came in a form of money but rather US-made military hardware, including M-16 and M-4 rifles. As a matter of fact, US has used this very "aid" as a way to prevent Israel from becoming a major military arms supplier. Every time Israel made an announcement to switch to a homegrown rifle, US would suddenly ship insane amount of "aid" in a form of rifles. No matter how inexpensive Galil was, it could never compete with "free". Same with Tavor...

US helps other countries but not for altruistic reasons. As it should be. Nobody looks out for US interests except the US itself. That said, this does diminish the fact that Israel has produced some impressive rifle designs such as Galil and Tavor. Recently, I had a chance to shoot the latest Galil in 7.62x39. Holy cow! What a rifle! Everything about it is just....right! When the unconstitutional MA law is overturned and MA citizens become free citizen, I will go and purchase me a Galil!
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Four Seasons sells the Galil ACE. At least for a few more days.
 
Lol what a horrible meandering article.

The Tavor was barely relevant there even years ago.

Israel always preferred to use free shit they got from the US. Which is going to be an M4.

This way they at least dont have to lie anymore and just be monolithic platform.
 
Broc Tuah said:
TAVOR, POS 4 MOA gun.
Click to expand...

Come to the range. Shoot my Tavor X95 with Geiselle trigger pack, lightning bow trigger and PWS brake. Using correct ammo (69gr match), it is 1.5" groups. green tip is 2.5" groups. Alot like a run-of-the-mill AR15/M4 clone... only no SBR paperwork and it's a piston gun.

Manual of arms does suck though compared to an AR/M4.
 
Also, the article mostly talks about the supply chain, maintenance and training issues with not having a common weapon platform across their units. That tells me the issue of moving to an M4 type platform for everyone is mostly logistics.

"We conducted in-depth research on the subject and comparative experiments with soldiers from the Givati, Kfir and Netzah Yehuda brigades to ensure that it is not just a gut feeling of commanders. We observed in the tests we conducted in the ranges that we need to transition to a unified weapon system because significant gaps have emerged, mainly in reserve battalions that are composed of soldiers from different units, some of whom used the Tavor and others the M4."
The ambition to rely on indigenous Tavor rifles marks the third attempt by the Israeli military in the past few decades to achieve self-reliance, following the Galil rifles in the 1970s and 1980s and the Tavors introduced in the early 2000s, both of which came short of the desired goals.
"This transition will provide significant maintenance flexibility, reduce the reasons for soldiers to transition from active duty to reserves, establish a standardized supply system, and generate long-term logistical cost savings," the officer explained."

Sounds like it's a training and familiarization issue with reservists using different weapons platforms and logistics. The TAVOR already takes STANAG mags and uses 5.56. Accuracy is on par with standard issue M4's.
 
G4Y4HK said:
Are they mostly ceremonial marching rifles? Haven't seen a single one in real time war footage
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They were able to produce about 1000 pieces. In acountry with hundreds of thousands of AKs and now tens of thousands of ARs, Tavors are not exactly mass produced..
 
40 Creedmoor fan said:
… For the past 40 years the US has been providing ~3-5B in annual aid to Israel. The aid never came in a form of money but rather US-made military hardware, including M-16 and M-4 rifles. As a matter of fact, US has used this very "aid" as a way to prevent Israel from becoming a major military arms supplier. Every time Israel made an announcement to switch to a homegrown rifle, US would suddenly ship insane amount of "aid" in a form of rifles. No matter how inexpensive Galil was, it could never compete with "free". Same with Tavor...

US helps other countries but not for altruistic reasons. As it should be. Nobody looks out for US interests except the US itself. That said, this does diminish the fact that Israel has produced some impressive rifle designs such as Galil and Tavor. Recently, I had a chance to shoot the latest Galil in 7.62x39. Holy cow! What a rifle! Everything about it is just....right! When the unconstitutional MA law is overturned and MA citizens become free citizen, I will go and purchase me a Galil!
Click to expand...

No, we don’t just send them weapons. We do give them boatloads of money. And we are not sending them these new contract M4s. Of the money they receive, they’re free to spend 26% of it on domestically produced weapons. Actually, possibly more than that now. And Israel spends billions on things like our F-35, air defense systems, and munitions. They don’t need buy American and spend the pittance that small arms cost in order to meet their 74% obligation for the funds.

The new M4s are Israeli made, so it puts a wrench in that theory about being given US arms. Yes, some of the rifle parts are imported from the US, but they could have done that with the Tavor too if they wanted to do it for US aid reasons. No reason they couldn’t have their US factory manufacture some of their TAR parts to buy with US aid and count it as part of the 74% allotted to US made stuff.

Also, the Galil was 2.5lbs heavier than the M4. It weighs more than the new XM7. Surely that didn’t have anything to do with ditching it? But I’m glad you enjoyed it.
 
Is there an allied country that issues bullpups that their special ops don’t use an AR Carbine variant?

I’m not saying They are useless or even bad, they are just not as good as an AR Carbine.
 
Varmint said:
Do you see anyone in Call of Duty using a bull pup? It’s out of fashion, same with the SCAR it’s all about the AR platform now.
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Guns in video games are infuriating, including a lot of mid tier shooters. Ghost Recon Wildlands had a lot of great gun models in it but theres like 6 guns that are great and dozens that are shitty because they downspec the guns too hard. Like there's stupid shit where an M4 does less damage than an MK18. 🤣
 
PappyM3 said:
No, we don’t just send them weapons. We do give them boatloads of money. And we are not sending them these new contract M4s. Of the money they receive, they’re free to spend 26% of it on domestically produced weapons. Actually, possibly more than that now. And Israel spends billions on things like our F-35, air defense systems, and munitions. They don’t need buy American and spend the pittance that small arms cost in order to meet their 74% obligation for the funds.

The new M4s are Israeli made, so it puts a wrench in that theory about being given US arms. Yes, some of the rifle parts are imported from the US, but they could have done that with the Tavor too if they wanted to do it for US aid reasons. No reason they couldn’t have their US factory manufacture some of their TAR parts to buy with US aid and count it as part of the 74% allotted to US made stuff.

Also, the Galil was 2.5lbs heavier than the M4. It weighs more than the new XM7. Surely that didn’t have anything to do with ditching it? But I’m glad you enjoyed it.
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You have it somewhat backwards. Let's go step by step:

  • M4 that are used in Israel are US-made. Ask Israelis who serve. I have quiet a few relatives who are serving now and many more who have served. They all say M16s, M4s are all US-made. When I mention that Israel does make M4s, they are surprised. Israeli-made rifles actually have to have the maker and model designations, and any other lettering on the rifles, to be in Hebrew as per Israeli law. Every Israeli I ever spoken two said that their rifles had English lettering on them. So no, Israeli M4s are not being used in IDF. At least not at the scale of, say, Tavors.
  • Israel does participate in F-35 program. Here's something most don't realize: Israel is a MAJOR supplier of F-35 components. As a matter of fact, Israel is a net exporter when it comes to F-35 program. In other words, Israel sell more F-35 parts(dollar value-wise) than it buys! So you claim that F-35s are somehow are part of US aid is not very convincing.
  • Just for a though excercise, let's assume Israel does export F-35 components and just buys the aircraft. The most expensive version of F-35 is 100M, with average cost of $80M but let's use the larger number. Israel has a total of 75 F-35s, with 25 of those ordered but not delivered yet. That's 7.5B over the period of 14 years(Israel ordered first F-35's in 2010). That's about 500M/yr. That's less than 15% of annual US aid to Israel!
  • Air defense system, like the MiM-104 Patriot was indeed developed in the US and has been a big part of aid package to Israel over the years. This however has changes in 2017 when Israel and US partnered to create the new generation of air defense system, where 30% of the manufacturing and 50% of R&D would be done by Israel's Rafael Advanced Defense Systems. This development has effectively lowered the need for US-made hardware.
  • Israel has received a total of 310B(adjusted for inflation) in military aid from 1946 through 2024. This is an average of 3.9B/yr. of that, 3.3B must be spent purchasing US-made stuff. Mind you, Israel cannot spend that money on air-defense systems. For that, US allocated 0.5B in aid to spend specifically on air-defense systems. In other words. Israel does not use our tanks. They do not use our drone platforms(we use theirs). All they have is small arms, ammunition and vehicles.
  • Galil weighs about the same as XM7. There's literarily a 2oz difference.
  • If the weight of an M4 is a benefit the why did US adopted a much heavier XM7? This is an indication that Galil's weight was not at issue. Something else was. Also, Tavor is a pound lighter than Galil so the weight would have been a much let important variable.
 
40 Creedmoor fan said:
You have it somewhat backwards. Let's go step by step:

  • M4 that are used in Israel are US-made. Ask Israelis who serve. I have quiet a few relatives who are serving now and many more who have served. They all say M16s, M4s are all US-made. When I mention that Israel does make M4s, they are surprised. Israeli-made rifles actually have to have the maker and model designations, and any other lettering on the rifles, to be in Hebrew as per Israeli law. Every Israeli I ever spoken two said that their rifles had English lettering on them. So no, Israeli M4s are not being used in IDF. At least not at the scale of, say, Tavors.
  • Israel does participate in F-35 program. Here's something most don't realize: Israel is a MAJOR supplier of F-35 components. As a matter of fact, Israel is a net exporter when it comes to F-35 program. In other words, Israel sell more F-35 parts(dollar value-wise) than it buys! So you claim that F-35s are somehow are part of US aid is not very convincing.
  • Just for a though excercise, let's assume Israel does export F-35 components and just buys the aircraft. The most expensive version of F-35 is 100M, with average cost of $80M but let's use the larger number. Israel has a total of 75 F-35s, with 25 of those ordered but not delivered yet. That's 7.5B over the period of 14 years(Israel ordered first F-35's in 2010). That's about 500M/yr. That's less than 15% of annual US aid to Israel!
  • Air defense system, like the MiM-104 Patriot was indeed developed in the US and has been a big part of aid package to Israel over the years. This however has changes in 2017 when Israel and US partnered to create the new generation of air defense system, where 30% of the manufacturing and 50% of R&D would be done by Israel's Rafael Advanced Defense Systems. This development has effectively lowered the need for US-made hardware.
  • Israel has received a total of 310B(adjusted for inflation) in military aid from 1946 through 2024. This is an average of 3.9B/yr. of that, 3.3B must be spent purchasing US-made stuff. Mind you, Israel cannot spend that money on air-defense systems. For that, US allocated 0.5B in aid to spend specifically on air-defense systems. In other words. Israel does not use our tanks. They do not use our drone platforms(we use theirs). All they have is small arms, ammunition and vehicles.
  • Galil weighs about the same as XM7. There's literarily a 2oz difference.
  • If the weight of an M4 is a benefit the why did US adopted a much heavier XM7? This is an indication that Galil's weight was not at issue. Something else was. Also, Tavor is a pound lighter than Galil so the weight would have been a much let important variable.
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Sweet Jesus, let’s cut this down so it’s not a book.

1. The new M4s the IDF is acquiring are going to be Israeli made.

2. No, the U.S. is not buying Israeli equipment to install in our F-35s.They want to install Israeli EW into their own F-35s. But that doesn’t matter because they’re still buying F-35s.

3. You’re bringing up total aid from 1946 to today? Seriously?

4. Are you asking why the Army is willing to gain a pound of weight for the performance of the 6.8x51? Last time I checked, the Galil did not fire a cartridge that offered any benefit over lighter weapons.
 
mav said:
Come to the range. Shoot my Tavor X95 with Geiselle trigger pack, lightning bow trigger and PWS brake. Using correct ammo (69gr match), it is 1.5" groups. green tip is 2.5" groups. Alot like a run-of-the-mill AR15/M4 clone... only no SBR paperwork and it's a piston gun.

Manual of arms does suck though compared to an AR/M4.
Click to expand...
Mine doesn't have nearly these many bells and whistles and it does alright. Changing a mag does feel like I'm doing it left-handed behind my back, but it shoots fine. If I could go back in time I'd have dropped the $2k on an AR with all the cool shit, but this I can live with.
 
PappyM3 said:
Sweet Jesus, let’s cut this down so it’s not a book.

1. The new M4s the IDF is acquiring are going to be Israeli made.

2. No, the U.S. is not buying Israeli equipment to install in our F-35s.They want to install Israeli EW into their own F-35s. But that doesn’t matter because they’re still buying F-35s.

3. You’re bringing up total aid from 1946 to today? Seriously?

4. Are you asking why the Army is willing to gain a pound of weight for the performance of the 6.8x51? Last time I checked, the Galil did not fire a cartridge that offered any benefit over lighter weapons.
Click to expand...
1. Just because IDF intends to aquire Israeli-made rifles does not mean it will actually do it. This has happened before. IDF comes out with "IDF is switching to domestic made rifle X" and US gives them them a couple of million rifles for free.
2. Well, you haven't read my argument, have you? The point was: F-35s are cheap and Israel produces enough equipment to offset the costs of "aid",
3. Just to show how little US has helped Israel. Ukraine received more aid since the start of the war than all of military aid Israel received since before its inception
4) I am demonstrating that decision to change rifles does not hang on rifle's weight alone.
 
40 Creedmoor fan said:
1. Just because IDF intends to aquire Israeli-made rifles does not mean it will actually do it. This has happened before. IDF comes out with "IDF is switching to domestic made rifle X" and US gives them them a couple of million rifles for free.
2. Well, you haven't read my argument, have you? The point was: F-35s are cheap and Israel produces enough equipment to offset the costs of "aid",
3. Just to show how little US has helped Israel. Ukraine received more aid since the start of the war than all of military aid Israel received since before its inception
4) I am demonstrating that decision to change rifles does not hang on rifle's weight alone.
Click to expand...
What's wrong with all those old M4s we gave em? Pass em out. I thought I remembered IDF used to mount optics on the carry handle 5 inches above the bore till they switched to putting their mepros on a gooseneck forward mount. Brilliant.

9ul78ltxgyp41.jpg
 
mav said:
it is 1.5" groups
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i just looked at mine, looks like 2.5-3moa with green tips. good to have those pictures saved. :)

1722035569180.png

i just do not remember at all what optics i had on it at that time, a 3x prism or 1-6x lpvo. it if was with the prism, then the result is not bad at all.
 
G4Y4HK said:
What's wrong with all those old M4s we gave em? Pass em out. I thought I remembered IDF used to mount optics on the carry handle 5 inches above the bore till they switched to putting their mepros on a gooseneck forward mount. Brilliant.

View attachment 901395
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Oh, Israelis don't waste rifles! Front line units get new stuff but everybody else gets hand me downs! M4's and M16s last despite the abuse they get from IDF. Unlike US army, where rifles never leave base, in Israel, all soldiers MUST carry rifles with them even when they leave base. This is why you see so many pictures of Israeli girls in dresses, walking around shopping malls with rifles slung behind them.
 
If you've ever shot a Tavor, this might not make any sense

"The Tavor was based on a mechanism of a rear assembly, which has become less common in Western armies, less suitable for operating some of the restraints, and it has relative disadvantages in fighting in closed areas, as we saw in the fighting in Gaza," a senior IDF officer who leads the intensification project. "

The shortness of the bullpup design would seem to make it BETTER for fighting in closed areas.

That is until you consider one other thing. One of the techniques they teach you when you take a CQB class is switching shoulders to go around corners. The Tavor fails in this regard miserably. Because the action is so far back, if you shoot the rifle from your weak side, it ejects brass into your face.

I have owned Tavors and had this problem when I switched sides. In fact, one time a case bounced off my chin and landed right back in the ejection port, stopping the gun.

It's interesting that they made this oversight when you consider that the main advantage of a bullpup is in close quarters fighting. Either that or earlier Israeli CQB doctrine did not include swapping sides and maybe now it does (100% speculation on my part). Its also interesting that some other bullpups have been engineered to either eject straight down or out a chute in the front.
 

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