Interesting article on how Cops should treat armed citizens written by a Cop.

Thanks for posting that. I thought the article was very good and very pro-CCW.

I don't know what you guys are objecting to in the article. He's specifically addressing officer safety and asking LEOs to make sure they don't treat anyone with a concealed firearm as an automatic felon. What more do you want?

The comments are another story.
This one got me pretty pissed off:

Thank you for the post, it is a good reminder of how many law abiding citizens do carry.
I have my opinion like everyone else.The right to carry is just that, a right, and that right can and should be revoked once any infraction of the law occurs. The police on the street, don't know who the good guys are from the bad guys until such time as the fight is on.Yes we need to be aware at the amount of people who legally carry men and woman alike. But when we are on duty and we come to scene, we are the ones who demand the respect and our commands better be adhered to or somebody may die.
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The right to carry is just that, a right, and that right can and should be revoked once any infraction of the law occurs.
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Really? So this Ahole thinks he can revoke a RIGHT based on some trivial misdemeanor that's not a disqualifier? And that it would be his call in the first place? Ya, Sieg Heil a**h***. You'll notice he didn't say disarmed, which I wouldn't quibble over for officer safety reasons. He said revoked, and I don't think it was on accident.

But when we are on duty and we come to scene, we are the ones who demand the respect and our commands better be adhered to or somebody may die.
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So, little Hitler thinks he gets to DEMAND respect? And makes the thinly veiled threat to kill me if I don't give it to him?

Guess what. If you come off to me with an attitude like that, expect to be treated with thinly veiled contempt. Respect is EARNED, you don't get it issued with your badge. Courtesy is a reasonable expectation. Maybe he could try using that and he'll get a lot more respect.

I could go on, but it's a nice day and I don't feel like getting aggravated. What did you think about the comment LEOs? I'd be interested in your POVs.
 
Cato said:
Protecting themselves from what?

The author began by making a premise. His premise is that people who go through the process of obtaining a concealed gun permit do not present a threat to the police. Are you saying that his premise is wrong?

If we assume that his premise is correct, I still don't have an answer to what I thought was a rather simple question.
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It's all about being situationally aware. A lot of the guys they interact with that have firearms are felons or criminals. The point he's trying to make is don't jump to the conclusion that because someone has a firearm on them that you need to draw and call for backup. Being able to gather intel before you spot a weapon will help you not react in a poor manner when you finally see the firearm.

Maybe I'm way off but that's what I got out of it.
 
cekim said:
Getting shot by a bad guy pretending to be good...

Bad guys don't always often walk up and say "Hi, I'm Jeff, I'll be your bad guy today, how can I harm you?"
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So there are a lot of bad guys that go through the process of obtaining a carry permit and present themselves is such a way to match the extensive description provided by the author?

I don't think that was what the author was getting at. He was not saying to watch out for the one's who normally wear the crooked hats who through much study camouflage themselves as lawful gun permit holders.
 
derek said:
It's all about being situationally aware. A lot of the guys they interact with that have firearms are felons or criminals. The point he's trying to make is don't jump to the conclusion that because someone has a firearm on them that you need to draw and call for backup. Being able to gather intel before you spot a weapon will help you not react in a poor manner when you finally see the firearm.

Maybe I'm way off but that's what I got out of it.
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No, I think that you are absolutely correct. If they come across a firearm when dealing with someone not to flip out.

But what concerns me is that he also seems to say that a LEO should always be trying to locate who is lawfully carrying a firearm on them. Even while observing normal foot traffic they should always be attempting to ascertain who is carrying. I took it as that is why he provided such a long description of what they look like and how they act.

What I'm getting at is after reading the essay, I think that the author does in fact believe that those that carry are somewhat of a threat even though he starts out by saying the contrary.
 
Cato said:
But what concerns me is that he also seems to say that a LEO should always be trying to locate who has a firearm on them. Even while observing normal foot traffic they should always be attempting to ascertain who is carrying. I took it as that is why he provided such a long description of what they look like and how they act.

What I'm getting at is after reading the essay, I think that the author does in fact believe that those that carry are somewhat of a threat even though he starts out by saying the contrary.
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I didn't get that, but 99% of the LEO's that I know personally are pro-gun and pro-Constitution.
 
derek said:
I didn't get that, but 99% of the LEO's that I know personally are pro-gun and pro-Constitution.
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Ok, well maybe I misunderstood him.

And I agree that most LEOs are pro-gun. Every time that I renew my permit the LEO that takes my finger prints apologizes to me for having to do it.
 
I'm having a real hard time trying to articulate what bothered me about the article. Perhaps its because tone and tenor doesn't come through in text it's just my anti-authoritarian side that gets this...

But I get the feeling the author of the article is writing the write stuff, but still from the POV that isn't so much "Public servant" as it is "Brother's keeper".

I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that most cops (IME) know less about the world of guns, both in practical application and in theory (Law) than the average armed civilian. As a result, it irritates me to have any cop come off as if they have the moral or legal high ground in being armed, and that somehow I'm potentially any more dangerous to their safety than they are to mine.

I guess the base if my qualm is that it seems that many LEO's function under the impression that they are the only ones that really should have guns, and that somehow an armed civilian is a "second class" gun carrier, to be tolerated at best, harassed at worst.

ETA: Even the title of the article is part of what I'm getting at... "Dealing with..." As if we're a problem they have to cope with.
 
Cato said:
So there are a lot of bad guys that go through the process of obtaining a carry permit and present themselves is such a way to match the extensive description provided by the author?
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Uh, no, that's not what I was saying...

What I was saying is the officer has no way of knowing that you have a carry permit or you are a bad guy when they meet you...

They do have ways (as described in this and other articles) of assessing whether you are armed.

The point of the article and the prior comment/question I was answering was to point out that this assessment can also be used to "profile" a CCW'er so that you can rule them out as a threat as much as possible and respond accordingly (i.e. not do a felony stop because you see a bulge or a windbreaker on a calm day in July...) That's a good thing... I don't know about you, but I don't feel a need to eat pavement because the wind caused me to print...
 
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derek said:
Read VON1's comment at the bottom and tell me how you feel.
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Ya Derek, this was the comment that just made me crazy. This is the kind of clown that gives CCW folks a bad taste in their mouths over cops. He's probably a CA LEO. I know he's on west coast time, which doesn't bode well for good attitudes unless he's out here in God's country. And no LEO I've ever met in this part of the country acts like that and lasts more than a year on the job.

Always amazes me that these idiots go out of their way to antagonize people who would, absent the provocation, be totally supportive and helpful to them. They're a minority, but it's enough to give a bad impression of all of them.
 
Cato said:
Ok, but why?

Why is it important to know who is in the subcategory of "good with guns" vs just "good"?
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Situational awareness? Knowing whether or not the "guy with a gun" call is serious or just some panicked idiot who saw someone's legal CCW? Knowing who may be a potential threat (illegal carrier) or a potential help should the need arise? There's many reasons why police or even concerned citizens would want to know this. When you're out in public, do you just ignore your surroundings or do you take notice of who's around you.
 
Lamina said:
I'm having a real hard time trying to articulate what bothered me about the article. Perhaps its because tone and tenor doesn't come through in text it's just my anti-authoritarian side that gets this...
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Relax.........This was an article written for LEO's in a LEO on-line publication. It was written accordingly.

I guess the base if my qualm is that it seems that many LEO's function under the impression that they are the only ones that really should have guns, and that somehow an armed civilian is a "second class" gun carrier, to be tolerated at best, harassed at worst.
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Which was exactly the reason the article was written...........[rolleyes]

ETA: Even the title of the article is part of what I'm getting at... "Dealing with..." As if we're a problem they have to cope with.
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Wow.... you are reaching here. This poor bastard LEO writes a good article in support of CCW and people are just trying to find reasons to criticize it.

You just cannot satisfy some people.
 
Dream to Dream said:
Again, it shouldn't be "us and them." Unless someone is acting suspiciously, I don't understand the need to probe and flush out CCW permit holders. Unless someone can point out something I may be missing?
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You are missing the entire point of the article. The point is that............. for example..... many officers when dispatched to a report of a "man with a gun" will respond and when confronted with said "man with a gun" will use controlling techniques on said individual which may and can include proning out and searching. This article was a reminder to those officers that there are ways to attempt to identify whether the "man with a gun" may be a CCW and that they should be treated respectfully as they may be doing nothing wrong.
 
Half Cocked said:
This poor bastard LEO writes a good article in support of CCW and people are just trying to find reasons to criticize it.
You just cannot satisfy some people.
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I agree. I thought the article was useful and very pro ccw. This is definitely one of the good guys and he's specifically trying to educate LEOs on CCWs and what to look for so they don't create a problem when dealing with someone who's more than likely a good citizen and no threat to anyone. What did you want the guy to say Lamina? I wish more cops had this guy's attitude. We'd have a lot fewer problems if all LEOs followed his advice.
 
I thought it was a good right up over all, I like how he go's into looking at people and trying to tell if they are carrying or not, I do the same thing when I am out and about.

I am just worryed about the last poster (VON1), he sounds like a real winner, sounds like someone that shouldn't be putting a badge on everyday. He sounds like he has no respect for what the laws or rights say, it's his way or no way.
 
I look for “tactical carry” vests — such as 5.11 Tactical, Blackhawk, Concealed Carry Clothiers or other “brand name” items — along with some sort logo baseball hat, long sleeved shirt, side cargo pocket pants or jeans with sturdy, lightweight, and hiking footwear to complete the “uniform.”

Damn, time to change my "uniform"-----nah
 
Ron Avery is active in the competitive community, and has loads of experience shooting at events where about 90% of the competitors are not LE. This gives him a perspective that officers who never see a gun in the hands of persons other than cops or criminals lack.
 
I think we need to hold VON1 to his own standards. Any violation of the law should be cause to revoke his right to carry a firearm and in effect, to be a police officer. He was very broad with his use of the words "any violation" so in his case I think we should include things like speeding and jaywalking, or if he's in one of the states that has laws about it, swearing in public.
 
Am I crazy or would one of those badges on your belt next to a gun perhaps save you from a very unpleasant encounter with a cop because the civvies would assume you were a cop if your jacket/shirt blew upon and your pistol was showing? I mean they could serve no other possible purpose. -Except to make mall ninjas feel important.
 
Bill Nance said:
Am I crazy or would one of those badges on your belt next to a gun perhaps save you from a very unpleasant encounter with a cop because the civvies would assume you were a cop if your jacket/shirt blew upon and your pistol was showing? I mean they could serve no other possible purpose. -Except to make mall ninjas feel important.
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Isn't it a crime to impersonate a police officer?
 
Larry Legend said:
Isn't it a crime to impersonate a police officer?
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You're not impersonating if you make no claim to be an LEO. I don't see how a badge which doesn't say police or anything like it, without any claims by you to be an LEO could be impersonation. If people make assumptions, that's their problem. But the assumption might make the difference between a panicked "man with a gun" call to the police and a completely ignored "cop."
 
Bill Nance said:
You're not impersonating if you make no claim to be an LEO. I don't see how a badge which doesn't say police or anything like it, without any claims by you to be an LEO could be impersonation. If people make assumptions, that's their problem. But the assumption might make the difference between a panicked "man with a gun" call to the police and a completely ignored "cop."
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Try it out and let me know how it goes for you?

Seriously, I know that people have been threatened with "impersonating an officer" charges in the past (read it, no personal experience). Not sure how it went, but I'd bet that if you wore it on your belt with this intention, a good ADA could make the charge stick in MA! Remember the judges have an agenda and will rule accordingly.
 
Bill Nance said:
Am I crazy or would one of those badges on your belt next to a gun perhaps save you from a very unpleasant encounter with a cop because the civvies would assume you were a cop if your jacket/shirt blew upon and your pistol was showing? I mean they could serve no other possible purpose. -Except to make mall ninjas feel important.
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A CCW Badge? [rofl]

-Mike
 

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