Interesting article on how Cops should treat armed citizens written by a Cop.

[Billsail]

Really? What percent of police shootings end up in negative action against the cop?

I agree, but what about the emotional distress one would most likely suffer stemming from any violent encounter? No matter how strong you are, you will be affected.

Bill

 

[Jose]

Just because you don't get charged or sued doesn't mean you didn't end up spending a bunch of money on a lawyer. For a police officer, he's likely to be represented by a union lawyer. For J. Random Gunowner, those costs come out of his pocket.


The "rest" of the US? Oh, really? Do you really think that MA courts are much different than say, Rhode Island? How about CT? Southern Maine (e.g., Portland)? New York? New Jersey? Maryland? Delaware? Chicago? Cleveland? CA? Western WA (e.g., Seattle)? Boulder, CO? There are more than a few liberal crapholes spread all over this country, with an ambitious district attorney looking to Nifong some poor shmuck as a way to climb the political ladder.

Yes, rural OH is different than urban MA. But don't kid yourself that the entire country is like rural OH. It isn't.

A whole hell of a lot more of this country (including some of those "liberal crapholes" that I have lived in and I am sure you have not) is like where I live than where you do.

Tell us something, will you unhesitantly pull the trigger if you feel you are in danger of death or severe injury, or will you eat a bullet or a shank second guessing yourself?

I'm just asking out of morbid curiosity, cause I don't particularly care if you live or die through a violent confrontation.

 

[Jose]

I agree, but what about the emotional distress one would most likely suffer stemming from any violent encounter? No matter how strong you are, you will be affected.

Bill

I disagree.

 

[Half Cocked]

I have to say that the whole police "my lights need to be even brighter!!!!" thing seems somewhat counterproductive at times.

What is this phenomena you speak of as I have never heard of it..............

 

[DavidC77]

From BillSail Post
I agree, but what about the emotional distress one would most likely suffer stemming from any violent encounter? No matter how strong you are, you will be affected.

Bill

From Jose Post

I disagree.

Jose iI don't mean this in anyway but I wonder if you have ever had a gun drawn on you or if you have ever had to draw a gun on someone else ???

I just wondering ???

 

[Lamina]

Funny. 50 years ago the concept of "emotional distress" didn't exist.

How ever did men like my great grandfather cope?

 

[DavidC77]

Funny. 50 years ago the concept of "emotional distress" didn't exist.

It was there, it just wasn't "in the open" like it is now a days.

My question to Jose deals with more then just "emotional distress", that's why I intreasted to see his answer.

 

[Billsail]

there it is. the only time someone suffers from that kind of bullshit is when they think they might have been wrong. if you know you were right, there's nothing to think about.

Have you heard of 'post traumatic stress'? Happens to the best and the strongest, even if they are 110% in the right. It's part of the human condition. It doesn't mean you're a wuss or a weakling. True, some can block it out better than others. I like to think I wouldn't be affected, but I don't know...

Maybe we can agree to disagree.

Bill

 

[Jose]

Jose iI don't mean this in anyway but I wonder if you have ever had a gun drawn on you or if you have ever had to draw a gun on someone else ???

I just wondering ???

Wonder no more. I haven't had either happen to me.

I have come close to drawing, once, but the fluid nature of the situation made my hand let go of the pistol before leather was cleared. That's all I am going to say about that.

Do I know exactly how I will react to shooting someone who was to harm me or my family? No.

Do I know how I try to condition myself to that event? Yes.

 

[45collector]

From the article:

I don’t know of any CCW carriers that carry a gun in the hood of their sweatshirt like felons are known to do.

I've never heard of anyone, criminal or otherwise, carrying a pistol loose in the hood of their sweatshirt. Can you imagine trying to draw from that position?

 

[FPrice]

Do I know exactly how I will react to shooting someone who was to harm me or my family? No.

Do I know how I try to condition myself to that event? Yes.

That sounds like an honest response.

If you have a good, strong support system, both external and internal and it's a good shoot, you should be okay.

Let's hope you never have to find out.

 

[atmay]

From the article:



I've never heard of anyone, criminal or otherwise, carrying a pistol loose in the hood of their sweatshirt. Can you imagine trying to draw from that position?

I've never actually heard of anyone doing it, but this isn't the first time I've heard the idea brought up. In high school, they tried making us not wear hoodies for this reason.

And I dont know about you, but I can reach the inside of a hood pretty easily. I mean, it might not be a pretty draw, but if you do it before the fight starts, you should be all set.

 

[45collector]

I mean, it might not be a pretty draw, but if you do it before the fight starts, you should be all set.

I imagine the weight of any loaded handgun dropped inside a hood will make the hood sag down quite a bit. Can you reach over your head with your strongside hand and place your palm on the center of your back? My support hand shoulder is double-jointed, but my strong side is not, so I certainly can't.

 

[atmay]

I imagine the weight of any loaded handgun dropped inside a hood will make the hood sag down quite a bit. Can you reach over your head with your strongside hand and place your palm on the center of your back? My support hand shoulder is double-jointed, but my strong side is not, so I certainly can't.

I might have to test this out later, but most of my hoodies have pretty shallow hoods, which sit around the base of my skull most of the time. I can usually reach my arm around the back of my head and get the bottom of my shoulder blade.


I'll let you know how my test works out for me, once I do it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Wonder no more. I haven't had either happen to me.

I have come close to drawing, once, but the fluid nature of the situation made my hand let go of the pistol before leather was cleared. That's all I am going to say about that.

Do I know exactly how I will react to shooting someone who was to harm me or my family? No.

Do I know how I try to condition myself to that event? Yes.

I have a LEO friend who has drawn down on "idiots with a gun" twice and was still very shaken up at the experience weeks later when he and I discussed it. Turns out in both cases, they were idiot kids with Airsoft pistols (tips painted black of course) who pointed it at him/other officers when they were stopped (one was a girl who had threatened to kill her mother and left the house, was spotted walking in downtown area and stopped)! He told me he was pulling the slack out of the trigger when the idiot finally put the gun down and he was severely rattled by the prospect of putting down an idiot with a fake gun.

I tried to reassure him that he was doing what he had to do and would have no reason to believe that the incident was harmless at the time it happened. Anyone who points a gun at another in a confrontation, deserves to be put down. It's easy for me to say, but I'd guess it completely natural to second-guess yourself afterwards and let it eat at you.

 

[weekendracer]

I was wondering just how long before things got sour.I am never amazed anymore on the internet.

Edit: GSG covered most of the same points in more detail. You can pass this post unless you want another LEO's ideas on the subject.

The problem is simply that any of us LEO's on "THIS" site are pro-gun (even if you discount me for being anti-gun for repeat violent offenders). The negative posts are about LEO's in general, so yes it ruffles our feathers a little to be put into the same mold as the minority anti-gun LEO's.

LEO's speak a certain way among our peer group. We understand the subtext whereas someone who isn't could, or can, take offense to it. Like using the term "subject" to describe someone got a few feathers ruffled a while back. I feel that the author of the article was trying to get LEO's to think before just jumping to felony stop mode. It wasn't written for a CCW, regular joe, but for a cop who may have been taught something and acts based on training. Thankfully, a new breed will be taking over high level positions and can hopefully change this.

 

[Billsail]

i'm familiar with it. and also know that it can manifest itself in individuals outside of shooting / combat situations, too.

in an LE environment where an individual officer is sworn to "protect and serve," and where an immediate inquest looking for any way to vilify the victorious officer is immediately launched, i can certainly see how that officer would be caught in a sh*t storm of internal second guessing.

i'm just joe citizen. i can't tell you how i'd mentally react to justifiably ending an individual who was threatening my life, or the lives of innocents, but i can tell you this. i've seen enough people i loved and cared about die horrible deaths,- in situations where there was absolutely nothing i could do to help them-, to know that any after math where i did the right thing will pale in comparison to the anguish and regret i already carry around each and every day.

OK...It looks like we basicaly agree. When confronted with a life or death situation, we will of course, do what we gotta do. The alternative would be unthinkable, regardless of the consequences we may suffer internally. As I said before, I'd like to think I could cope, but I pray I never have to.

Bill

 

[DavidC77]

The problem is simply that any of us LEO's on "THIS" site are pro-gun (even if you discount me for being anti-gun for repeat violent offenders). The negative posts are about LEO's in general, so yes it ruffles our feathers a little to be put into the same mold as the minority anti-gun LEO's.

LEO's speak a certain way among our peer group. We understand the subtext whereas someone who isn't could, or can, take offense to it. Like using the term "subject" to describe someone got a few feathers ruffled a while back. I feel that the author of the article was trying to get LEO's to think before just jumping to felony stop mode. It wasn't written for a CCW, regular joe, but for a cop who may have been taught something and acts based on training. Thankfully, a new breed will be taking over high level positions and can hopefully change this.

Very well put and I agree.

 

[DavidC77]

Wonder no more. I haven't had either happen to me.

I have come close to drawing, once, but the fluid nature of the situation made my hand let go of the pistol before leather was cleared. That's all I am going to say about that.

Do I know exactly how I will react to shooting someone who was to harm me or my family? No.

Do I know how I try to condition myself to that event? Yes.

Thank you for the answer Jose.

I am a past LEO. I was pro gun before, during and of course now after being a LEO.

I did have to draw my gun when I was working, I can tell you right now there are a million things going through your mind when you have to draw your gun. Luckaly I never had to fire it.

I no of one LEO that had to leave the force shortly after I started because he was involved with a justafied shooting. He only wounded the person but the storm that became his life took it's toll. He was of course sued by the loving family of the person he shot, so he had all those legal fees to deal with, He had all the emotional things to deal with, he ended up losing his house to pay the bills, he ended up losing his wife and kids because of the ordeal and so on.

So yes there is a lot of "emotional distress" to deal with in a violent encounter. It is your right to disagree but if you ever end up dealing with it (and I hope you don't ever have to) I think you will change your mind.

Be Safe.

 

[GSG]

Ummm...No...Its like saying firefighters shouldn't go into a fire barefoot, in shorts and a T-shirt with a dixie cup of water...Ok maybe thats an exageration, but I don't know enough about "fire science" to make a realistic comparison...

Don't let you lack of understanding stop you, it doesn't stop anyone else on the internet .

There are no "winners" in a gun fight, but there are losers. You may go home unharmed, you may end up in the hospital, or you may end up in the bag. But even if you go home unharmed, you don't "win," -- you're in for a world of crap. It's a lot better than losing, but you're still in a for a world of crap.

Agreed.

Really? What percent of police shootings end up in negative action against the cop?

Define negative action. Do you consider getting sent home halfway through your shift, driving home with someone else's blood on your uniform and your holster empty (because you know your gun gets taken away, right?) negative? What about reacting with a gut wrenching terror when the scene is secured and your backup walks up to you to take your gun for the investigation, the one thing that stood between you and certain death mere minutes ago? What about not being able to sleep for weeks after having nightmares come to life as part of your workday? What about people calling you at home and at work, telling you you're a murderer, they're going to kill you for killing/shooting so-and-so? What about the relative of the person you shot attacking you, your wife and daughter on your front lawn a day or two after the incident because the news made the shooting sound like something it wasn't (and worse, serving almost no time for it)? What about everyone referring to you as "the cop who shot..." for the rest of your life? What about your family complaining that you're wooden, something different...just not the same afterwards? What about having to rush to your kids birthday party from the scene of the shooting with no time to decompress, and everyone asking you "Oh my God. Tell me what happened. Are you OK?!?" What about the people who stop talking to you, or treat you differently when they look at you knowingly, judging you and every action that you had to take with the benefit of hindsight on their side? What about when your spouse has a radio tuned to your department frequency the night you get shot, and hear's you begging for help while you're alone in the dark, too injured to fight back or reload your empty gun? What about your subconcious being so stimulated from it, keeping you so alert that the only sleep you get for two years afterwards is the hour or so per night you got when your brain was too exhausted to keep you awake? What about that slow motion replay of the event in your mind every time you shut your eyes, second guessing every action you took, despite the "attaboys" you got for a good shoot? What about when your family comes to see you in the hospital, eyes silently begging you to quit the job that put you there?

I've read several studies on the subject of LE involved shootings, read more written accounts, and spoken to a handful of cops who've walked that out. Every "what about" I asked you above has happened to a police officer in real life post-OIS. Lawsuits, suspensions without pay, trial-by-media (who never seem to get the facts right when someone gets shot), forced resignations and other things are a whole separate set of ugliness.

In most free states a LEO doesn't need any kind of LTC or permit to carry a gun off duty, so most don't bother getting one, especially in states with open public records type laws applying to LTC holders. Depending on department policy, POST standards or state law, when they get suspended after a shooting they may not be allowed to carry a gun. For many (most?) the only handgun they have is their duty weapon, so even if they wanted to they couldn't readily carry something in the aftermath of the shooting; another hidden negative consequence.

Something else you may find interesting, some recent findings actually suggested very specific ways for backup LE to take the firearm of a cop who's been involved in a shooting once all the dust settles. There's some complex psychological issues involved in the situation, and the way that the initial event is handled can cause problems as the officer involved decompresses and processes the event down the road. They have to take the gun for the investigation in most cases, but the "how" is very important here. I'm not getting into it outside of PM's with NES coolcats though.

What percentage of civilian defensive shootings end up in prison time or loss of civil suit?

Massachussets is not the rest of the US. Whatever real or perceived chances of ending up in the shit over winning a gunfight in MA are not applicable to pretty much the rest of the US.

Even if there aren't legal repercussions directly related to the shooting other things can come up. I'm posting two links below to the Norman Borden case in Florida; while he was locked up after his arrest his dogs were put down by the county and his house mysteriously burned down (seems likely it was friends of the gang members that he shot getting revenge).

http://thefloridamasochist.blogspot.com/2007/06/knucklehead-of-day-award_21.html

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20070710/NEWS/707100331?tc=ar

I agree with M1911 that pulling the trigger can be Pandora's box for you. That doesn't mean that it will be, or that death at the hands of a violent felon would be better, but it will be less shocking to believe it now if it happens to you later.

My point was, firefighting is much the same. Sometimes, the job requires not going home at the end of your shift. If all our firefighters didn't accept this fact, what would happen? They'd never go in, and therefore probably suck at their jobs. Same thing with cops. Your job is to uphold and defend the Constitution, and the other laws of our land. Or, perhaps, to "Protect and Serve". Not "make sure I get home at the end of every day, at the expense of other citizen's rights"

Remember the Worcester warehouse fire that killed 6 firefighters? Shortly afterwards a nearly identical fire started in a very similar warehouse, I believe it was in NJ, and there was outrage when the ranking FF on scene pulled all his guys back, not sending anyone in to fight the fire. It resulted in millions of dollars worth of damage, people who lost money went nuts that those firefighters didn't go in there and "do their job." The reasoning given for not letting anyone in was based on painful lessons learned in Worcester, and the need for FF's to preserve life first.

Going home safe means doing what it right in the eyes of the people who know better, not what's right in the eyes of the people who flap their gums but have no idea. I'm not saying that's you or anyone here, but those people always have a way of popping up after big things happen.

Tell us something, will you unhesitantly pull the trigger if you feel you are in danger of death or severe injury, or will you eat a bullet or a shank second guessing yourself?

I'm just asking out of morbid curiosity, cause I don't particularly care if you live or die through a violent confrontation.

No, tell us how you really feel.

What is this phenomena you speak of as I have never heard of it..............

He quoted a post that I made. It's taught to students in driver's ed, skid school and other driver training; look to where you want the car to go when working your way out of a skid or slide, and you'll find the rest of you moving to make it happen.

I imagine the weight of any loaded handgun dropped inside a hood will make the hood sag down quite a bit. Can you reach over your head with your strongside hand and place your palm on the center of your back? My support hand shoulder is double-jointed, but my strong side is not, so I certainly can't.

Reach to the back of your neck with your support hand and tug at the base of the hood to pull it up towards your head, then reach in to draw with your shooting hand when it gets close enough for you to reach.

Also make sure you throw up the right gang sign after performing this manuever, and be prepared to do it while sitting in a car listening to loud rap music with your homies.

 

[DavidC77]

Define negative action.

(deleted most to save space)

Very well put and I agree.

 

[atmay]

Remember the Worcester warehouse fire that killed 6 firefighters? Shortly afterwards a nearly identical fire started in a very similar warehouse, I believe it was in NJ, and there was outrage when the ranking FF on scene pulled all his guys back, not sending anyone in to fight the fire. It resulted in millions of dollars worth of damage, people who lost money went nuts that those firefighters didn't go in there and "do their job." The reasoning given for not letting anyone in was based on painful lessons learned in Worcester, and the need for FF's to preserve life first.

Going home safe means doing what it right in the eyes of the people who know better, not what's right in the eyes of the people who flap their gums but have no idea. I'm not saying that's you or anyone here, but those people always have a way of popping up after big things happen.

I remember that fire. I lived down the street, and later in life, befriended a few guys that were on the force when it happened (and still are).
Please don't mistake what I said as a blanket statement, asserting that FFs should ALWAYS go in, no matter what. I was merely attempting (and apparently clumsily) to refute the claim that accepting, realizing, and keeping in mind the fact that the job is dangerous is somehow 'defeatist'.

 

[Supermoto]

Define negative action.

Big F'en deal. Your average Joe faces all that and legal action. Its time for the Police and government officials to be personally responsible for their actions

 

[Half Cocked]

If you have a good, strong support system, both external and internal and it's a good shoot, you should be okay.

Let's hope you never have to find out.

I have a good friend LEO who was involved in an officer involved shooting which could not have been more justified. The offender was killed. This friend has never been right since. The media and public scrutiny surrounding it caused his wife to leave him and many to not ever treat him the same again.

Do not think that you will not be affected by it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I have a good friend LEO who was involved in an officer involved shooting which could not have been more justified. The offender was killed. This friend has never been right since. The media and public scrutiny surrounding it caused his wife to leave him and many to not ever treat him the same again.

Do not think that you will not be affected by it.

Probably 25 years ago, I attended a LE Forum at Dean College and a Brockton attorney brought two brave officers to explain what they went thru after officer-involved (JUSTIFIED) shootings. [NOTE: This was before all the media attention they get these days.]

- 1st officer was left to hang in the breeze by his department. His Wife left him, he lost his house (to pay legal bills), took (4 IIRC) years in court before being exonerated in the civil trial. There was NO criminal charges brought against him, the investigation showed that it was a righteous shoot.

- 2nd officer had the full backing of his department. He still described the 2 years of anguish wrt the civil suit against him. It took more than a pound of flesh from this fine officer, but he didn't suffer the financial ruin of officer #1. Again, no criminal charges were ever sought, the shoot was investigated and found to be righteous.

Today with the media attention, publishing the officers address, pictures of his family (if they can obtain them), all his personal info, etc. the results are 1000 times more devastating (again we're talking righteous actions here). Civilians involved in a shooting will get treated even more harshly and the PD won't try to defend them (e.g. layout all the guns/ammo/mags they confiscate from the righteous shooters home for the media circus, etc.). How long can any of us take the choppers overhead and every newsmedia van in the state camped out on our front lawns? And you are left defenseless, with the perp's friends all "knowing where you live" and exactly who lives there!!

The police will try to shield one of their own, at least to a point. However NOBODY will lift a finger to help shield a common citizen (or his/her family) who was forced into a situation that they had to defend their own (or family member's) life!!

 

[GSG]

I remember that fire. I lived down the street, and later in life, befriended a few guys that were on the force when it happened (and still are).

I hung out with one of the 6 fallen FF's a few times before he died. We weren't at all close, but I remember every time I drive down 290.

Please don't mistake what I said as a blanket statement, asserting that FFs should ALWAYS go in, no matter what. I was merely attempting (and apparently clumsily) to refute the claim that accepting, realizing, and keeping in mind the fact that the job is dangerous is somehow 'defeatist'.

Gotcha. That could've been error on my part too.

Big F'en deal.

Have you been drinking turpentine or something? Jose asked a specific question about cops suffering negative consequences that I answered.

Your average Joe faces all that and legal action.

Crunch some numbers bud, cops face a lot more legal action (criminal and civil) from clean shoots than your average Joe.

Its time for the Police and government officials to be personally responsible for their actions

Walter Sobchak covered this.

So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...

You know when the Brady Campaign talks about supporting legislation to prevent felons from getting guns? That's what you sound like.

The media and public scrutiny surrounding it caused his wife to leave him and many to not ever treat him the same again.

The FBI's 2007 Violent Encounters study brought up some very interesting info regarding this. They covered two very intriguing topics, one being the need for a speedy investigation. The second was a case study where the police chased an armed felon and shot him when he tried to draw a .357 from his pants. They directly compared the narrative of the involved LEO's and the subsequent use of force complaint filed by a group of neighborhood witnesses who had seen the entire event; it was amazing to see just how poorly violent encounters are understood by people who have never been in one (or even trained for one), and who don't recognize what they're seeing with their own eyes. These witnesses had a clear vantage point to the incident, they saw everything, but they missed all the cues because they didn't know what they were looking for.

The same thing happens here on NES a lot with criticism for LE or military use of force. At first it was frustrating, then it was annoying, now it's just part of the white noise.

 

[Jose]

Civilians involved in a shooting will get treated even more harshly and the PD won't try to defend them (e.g. layout all the guns/ammo/mags they confiscate from the rigtheous shooters home for hte media circus, etc.). How long can any of us take the choppers overhead and every newsmedia van in the state camped out on our front lawns? And you are left defenseless, with the perp's friends all "knowing where you live" and exactly who lives there!!

You know, I have never, EVER seen that routine at the home or in regards to a person that defended himself with deadly force here in the Dayton area. And there have been enough, I can tell you that.

Again, you guys (NE) worldview is drastically different than just about every other place I've lived in.

 

[Coyote33]

Too bad the people in this thread hadn't read this article.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Jose, having lived ONLY in the Northeast, I can't speak for anywhere else.

I can say that they send out news choppers and news vans in MA for every shooting and dwell on it and the family incessantly, with no respect for the further damage they may be creating.

I don't pretend to speak for "Free America", since I don't live there.

 

[Supermoto]

Have you been drinking turpentine or something? Jose asked a specific question about cops suffering negative consequences that I answered.
.

I don't consider getting sent home halfway through your shift, driving home with someone else's blood on your uniform and your holster empty (because you know your gun gets taken away, right?) negative action. I consider getting arrested on spot, going to jail a negative action. How often do cops get arrested on the spot for a clean shoot? how about a bad one.... never