Interesting article on how Cops should treat armed citizens written by a Cop.

[Len-2A Training]

I don't consider getting sent home halfway through your shift, driving home with someone else's blood on your uniform and your holster empty (because you know your gun gets taken away, right?) negative action. I consider getting arrested on spot, going to jail a negative action. How often do cops get arrested on the spot for a clean shoot? how about a bad one.... never

What you state above has deep psychological implications for a cop (or a civilian for that matter).

Before you spout off about that for which you know nothing, I suggest that you read "I Love a Cop" by Ellen Kirschman, a police psychologist. Her book goes into great detail about exactly these issues and the damage that it does to the officers and their families.

I have no experience (luckily) working with officers who were involved in such events (that I know of), but did work with some that had severe alcohol issues to drown out whatever experiences in their lives haunted them.

 

[Supermoto]

I have little sympathy for people that can not handle the psychological consequences of the risk they assumed. You don't want to shoot someone on the job, don't become a cop, you don't want to see blood and guts, don't become a firefighter/EMT.

I save my sympathy for those who did not choose their nightmares

 

[ochmude]

I have little sympathy for people that can not handle the psychological consequences of the risk they assumed. You don't want to shoot someone on the job, don't become a cop, you don't want to see blood and guts, don't become a firefighter/EMT.

I save my sympathy for those who did not choose their nightmares

Wow, that's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read. No sane individual wants to shoot someone.

 

[Supermoto]

Wow, that's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read. No sane individual wants to shoot someone.

You took it to literal, but you're right, I should have said, if you don't want to be in the situation were you might have to, then don't be a cop.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Wow, that's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read. No sane individual wants to shoot someone.

I totally agree with you here!

You took it to literal, but you're right, I should have said, if you don't want to be in the situation were you might have to, then don't be a cop.

I guess that the only people who should volunteer for military service should be those that want to kill people too?

I suppose you have no empathy for those that come home wounded, maimed or in a body bag either!

Sorry, but your attitude sickens me!

 

[Supermoto]

I totally agree with you here!



I guess that the only people who should volunteer for military service should be those that want to kill people too?

I suppose you have no empathy for those that come home wounded, maimed or in a body bag either!

Sorry, but your attitude sickens me!

when you learn the difference between physical damage brought on to you by others and psychological damage brought on by yourself, then get back to me.

 

[Admin]

I guess that the only people who should volunteer for military service should be those that want to kill people too?

I joined the Marines to kill bad people.

 

[ochmude]

I joined the Marines to kill bad people.

I just wanted the college money. Okay, that's a lie, I wanted the pink mist.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I joined the Marines to kill bad people.

Derek, knowing you, I don't doubt that!

 

[Gonzo]

I guess that the only people who should volunteer for military service should be those that want to kill people too?

Ummmm....that's the job of the military. Warheads on foreheads.

 

[atmay]

I hung out with one of the 6 fallen FF's a few times before he died. We weren't at all close, but I remember every time I drive down 290.


Gotcha. That could've been error on my part too.

Don't worry about it. Despite being a native speaker of the language, my English isn't always the best.

 

[Bill Nance]

I thought I'd pipe in here WRT Jose's comments about free America. Both you and M1911 are right Jose. I had a long talk about this stuff with an acquaintance who is in a position to know exactly how this stuff works here in the Northwest (Oregon not included). I can't say more because I don't want to out her, but you can take my word for it that if I would trust anyone's opinion on how it works here, it would be this person's.

How you will be treated after a shooting is utterly dependent on where you live. In Seattle, you're looking at a complete toss-up unless there is NO QUESTION WHATEVER about the righteousness of the shoot. The state laws are pretty damn good here on use of force, so there's no duty to retreat crap or anything like that. But if there are any questions, you are looking at a not negligible possibility of major investigation (cha-ching go the atty's fees) or (less likely) prosecution. Because of the politics there, the County Attorney may well file charges even if he doesn't think he's going to win, just to score points with the wacko contingent.

In Eastern Washington, Idaho, Montana or most of Nevada it's a completely different story. Here at least, unless you shoot someone 12 times in he back from 50 yards away, all a jury has to hear is "gang affiliated" about the dead guy and they'll acquit. The County Attorney won't bring charges unless the case is not only slam dunk, but also not involving a citizen vs. a known bad guy. I've exaggerated a little but, but not that much. Basically if it's a decent shoot, you're good to go. Hell, in some cases the cops will practically give you high-5s. (on the sly of course).

It's been enlightening living in Hell er, Massatwoshoshits for these long 8 years. I've certainly been affected in my attitudes. Paranoia becomes a way of life in Mass simply out of self defense. Now that I'm leaving for good, I've found that my friends and local gunnies give me strange looks when we talk about use of force etc. It will take a while to shake the mental shackles of the NE off completely.

 

[Half Cocked]

when you learn the difference between physical damage brought on to you by others and psychological damage brought on by yourself, then get back to me.

Nevermind............

 

[vellnueve]

Great article, great find.

One thing that stuck out to me was the author stated this a few times; "I don’t expect them to be experts on the law. Most will understand the gist of it but may get lost on certain points."

The author was reffering CCWers, but in my limited experience this more acurately describes some town and city cops with whom I have discussed concealed carry. Granted I am in MA and the laws and regs are designed to be anything but easily understood, so confusion and various points of view are to be somewhat expected, but of the population I've had the opportunity to speak with have more or less told me they have larger issues to make sure they're intimately familiar with, than people who usually are going out of their way to be exceedingly law abiding. Only the jerks or those who feel that civilian CCW is some sort of blight will break balls if they become aware of what they percieve as some sort of infraction.

Be that as it may, I like this guy's point of view.

IMO, people in MA are much more sensitive about the law because they are so convoluted, while in most states firearms freedoms are much more respected and taken for granted.

 

[GSG]

I don't consider getting sent home halfway through your shift, driving home with someone else's blood on your uniform and your holster empty (because you know your gun gets taken away, right?) negative action.

Well I'm sure glad we cleared that up. The next time your TPS report shoots at you I know what demons you won't be dealing with.

I consider getting arrested on spot, going to jail a negative action.

An arrest is not at all a big deal in the grand scheme of things post self defense shooting. There's more to preparing for a life threatening encounter than trigger time on the range.

How often do cops get arrested on the spot for a clean shoot? how about a bad one.... never

While cops don't often get arrested after an on-duty shooting (just like citizens don't when it appears reasonable, not even in MA), they are investigated by multiple agencies, and with a lot more scrutiny and a greater loss of intimacy than there is with Joe Citizen. However, there are tons more cops who are serving hard time in prison for clean shoots and other lawful necessary use of force than there are average citizens. Bernie Goetz and Harold Fish are just the ones that you hear about in the circles that you travel in. Cops indeed get in trouble for bad shoots, and again, a lot more trouble than the average citizen. As the people who enforce the law they should be held to a higher standard, I don't have a problem with that. But the more you talk, the more you demonstrate how little you know about the subject.

I have little sympathy for people that can not handle the psychological consequences of the risk they assumed.

I never said couldn't handle. I pointed out that it's things they need to handle after a shooting, things you'd never expect because you just don't know.

when you learn the difference between physical damage brought on to you by others and psychological damage brought on by yourself, then get back to me.

When you survive a serious violent encounter or six, you can apply your asinine theories on trauma.

In Eastern Washington, Idaho, Montana or most of Nevada it's a completely different story. Here at least, unless you shoot someone 12 times in he back from 50 yards away, all a jury has to hear is "gang affiliated" about the dead guy and they'll acquit. The County Attorney won't bring charges unless the case is not only slam dunk, but also not involving a citizen vs. a known bad guy. I've exaggerated a little but, but not that much. Basically if it's a decent shoot, you're good to go. Hell, in some cases the cops will practically give you high-5s. (on the sly of course).

It's similar in my county in Florida. Some recent notable shootings:

-Drug dealer killed two "home invaders" in his crackhouse, wasn't arrested or charged until the end of the months long investigation concluded that he was criminally wrong.

-Several carjacking self defense shootings by average citizens who weren't detained longer than it took to get statements, then handguns were returned and they were sent on their way.

-Multiple cases where attackers were shot through windows or doors of homes (state law allows this if they're trying to forcibly enter, but these people got the benefit of the doubt in some questionable cases), also countless cases of intruders shot in the home, no drama for the good guys.

-CWP holder carrying illegally at a school was involved in a 100% justified self defense shooting, no arrest, no loss of carry license, no charges filed, not even for carrying in a no-no zone. Similar turnouts for other carrying in off limits places when LE found out because of self defense.

Here’s another example involving a CWP holder, although not in my county. In the Norman Borden case I posted earlier in this thread, he was walking his dogs when three gang members harassed him, then tried to run him over with their vehicle. He shot five rounds into the vehicle as it came towards him, and when they crashed he walked up to the wreck and fired nine more rounds, including some contact shots. This was before “stand your ground” passed, he was arrested, charged and locked up until trial, but in the end he was acquitted.

In straightforward homicides and such it goes differently, but if there’s any doubt, you’ll get the benefit of it here. Cops still get put through the wringer.

 

[Coyote33]

Nice to read that, GSG. You know, for all the hysteria seen here on this forum (egpen carry discussions), most of the time, common sense still rules the day.

 

[GSG]

Nice to read that, GSG. You know, for all the hysteria seen here on this forum (egpen carry discussions), most of the time, common sense still rules the day.

Open carry saves lives.