Pocket Guns

The Goose

The Goose

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There is a WTB post in the classifieds for a pocket gun and folks have been tossing in posts with opinions and advice . TYPE01313 suggested starting a thread about the subject so here it is. This is one of my faorite topics.

I pocket carry every day and have for several years. I have experimented with different pistols and revolvers, but I always come back to my S&W j frame. It is the second handgun I ever bought and probably the one I will never part with. It is a 342 Titanium frame .38 and it is my constant companion. Sometimes I pocket carry a S&W 60 all steel .357, but it is a bit too heavy for some trousers.

I wear Dockers every day with a tucked in white work shirt. I do sales and estimating. I go into homes and businesses of all types. I might go from a boardroom in downtown Boston to an attic or crawlspace in the suburbs. I may have to climb, crawl, lift, reach and contort in a variety of ways at any given time. When the ladder is too short I might have to chin up into an attic hatch. My j frame sits securely and discreetly in my pocket. I have toyed with vests and cover garments over an IWB, but have never felt 100% secure. I have had an IWB get hung up trying to sueeze my considerable girth through a tight area.
Bottom line is that pocket carry works for me every day in every situation and when I am off work and can carry my .45 more confidently the j frame becomes a BUG.

In cooler weather when I wear a jacket a whole world of other carrying opportunities presents itself. I wear a Cabelas barn coat with vertical chest level pockets with velcro closures. Before I get into the car I can move the j frame and holster into the chest pocket which I believe is the MOST accessible form of carry in a car with a seat belt on. It is very fast. Late at night while walking back to a deserted parking garage in the wee hours I can move the j frame into a side jacket pocket and discreetly walk with my hand on my gun. Likewise if I am waiting for a client in front of a building in a really bad area I can do the same thing. In a jam I can even shoot through the pocket and have practiced this in training classes. In my opinion the j frame is truly a close quarters fighting gun with a host of tactical advantages.

In terms of accessories I use either a Desantis Nemesis or a Mika pocket holster. I have also used a cheap Uncle Mikes with great satisfaction. In jacket weather I carry 2 speedloaders in my jacket or coat pocket. In the summer I carry a speed strip in a pants pocket. Add my Spyderco folder and OC and I feel well armed. Also Surefire flashlight which I use constantly for work purposes.

Ammo: Speer 135 gr. Gold Dots.

I have tried other "pocket" guns, but I will stick to my j frame. Here are what I have tried:

Seecamp .32: heavy for it's size, hard to shoot (does not fit my hand at all), ammo picky, and I cannot hit anything with it. Also underpowered.

Kel Tec P3AT .380: feels like a toy, must be kept very clean, mine would consistently malfunction after 20 - 25 rds. Also underpowered.

Sig 230, 232 & Walther PPKS .380: Very heavy for what they are, reliable, but underpowered, only a couple more rounds then the j frame.

AMT Back up .45: Big, clunky, inaccurate & unreliable

Glock 26/27: just too big (for me) to pocket carry every day.

Beretta Tomcat .32: I actually like this pistol. Fits my hand pretty well. Reliable, but under powered.

Charter Arms Bulldog .44: Mine is very old with a 2" barrel. Actually carries nicely. Accurate. Mine rattles and scares me. Best left in the safe.

Those are other pocket guns I have tried. I will say that even the smallest semi auto did not conceal any better then my j frame. Any time or place that I could carry the Kel Tec I could carry my j frame. It has never ever had a single malfundtion of any type. It goes bang every time. I have put thousands of rounds through it and it is as tight as the day I bought it. I have taken a few different snubby specific classes and have put hundreds of rounds through it in one day. At 30' I can put all 5 shots well within a 5.5" shoot N C target with confidence. Certainly adequate for close range self defense. Most significantly it is with me always.

In my experience the very small semi autos are spotty in terms of reliabilty, difficult to shoot well, under powered and with only a minimal advantage in terms of increased firepower and perhaps (??) faster reloads. My little semi autos mostly sit in the safe because I have yet to find a time when I can't conceal my j frame just as easily.

Everything stated above is my opinion based upon my personal experience. Your results may differ. I would love to hear other thoughts.
 
Although I have not had the experience with the varying models you have listed I myself feel 100% comfortable with my S&W 642.

You pointed out all the benefits in your post. I can drop it in just about any pocket without concern. Its reliable, light, packs enough punch and with a little practice is quite accurate.
 
I will say that even the smallest semi auto did not conceal any better then my j frame.
Click to expand...
That has not been my experience.

I have an NAA .32. That is really small and really flat. Much easier to wear and conceal than my 642. Of course, it is a bear to shoot and is only a .32 as well.

My MK9 is much easier for me to conceal than my 642, and unlike the 642 it has real sights. I find it far easier to hit the target with the MK9 than my 642. And I can reload the MK9 much faster than 642. The downside is that the MK9 is heavy and that's a problem for those of us with Dunlop disease.

The solution for that problem is my Kahr PM9. Same good sites as the MK9, but much lighter. Downside is the expected additional recoil.

Unfortunately, both the MK9 and PM9 are very hard to find here in MA.

I've got a 642. I find the sights very difficult to use. I also find that it is very, very unpleasant to shoot. Under recoil, my trigger finger ends up getting smacked by the trigger guard. It is better with larger boot grips, but then I can't conceal in my pocket, which defeats the whole purpose of that gun.
 
+1 on the J frame! I opted for the 442 because in my opinion the black was slick looking.
Even if I am carrying another firearm IWB, like Goose, I carry the J fram as back up in the chest pocket of my coat.
 
For pocket pistols I have a Sterling .22lr, Davis .380 and a Jennings .22lr. The only one I remotely trust carrying is my Sterling.

FWIW I gave my best mans wife a Jennings 22 for her LTC gift.
 
[wink]
M1911 said:
That has not been my experience.

I have an NAA .32. That is really small and really flat. Much easier to wear and conceal than my 642. Of course, it is a bear to shoot and is only a .32 as well.

My MK9 is much easier for me to conceal than my 642, and unlike the 642 it has real sights. I find it far easier to hit the target with the MK9 than my 642. And I can reload the MK9 much faster than 642. The downside is that the MK9 is heavy and that's a problem for those of us with Dunlop disease.

The solution for that problem is my Kahr PM9. Same good sites as the MK9, but much lighter. Downside is the expected additional recoil.

Unfortunately, both the MK9 and PM9 are very hard to find here in MA.

I've got a 642. I find the sights very difficult to use. I also find that it is very, very unpleasant to shoot. Under recoil, my trigger finger ends up getting smacked by the trigger guard. It is better with larger boot grips, but then I can't conceal in my pocket, which defeats the whole purpose of that gun.
Click to expand...


Agree 100% I have had the opportunity to pocket and shoot a PM9 on a few occasions, and they conceal much better than my 637.

Too bad they are so hard to get in Mass. They are on the EOPS list. You think maybe BPS will sell me one?
 
Great topic, Goose.

I covered this on my blog a few months ago.

For me, it's a toss-up between the S&W model 38 and my Kel-Tec P3AT. The model 38 is more powerful and accurate; the P3AT is lighter, higher capacity, and thinner. Either are easy to conceal in a pocket; the P3AT has a slight edge due to thinness in tighter pants.

In any case, the one thing above all that can't be stressed enough is to practice, practice, practice drawing from concealment. It's one thing to sweep the cover garment aside and draw from an IWB or OWB holster; it's another thing entirely to pull a 3/4 pound gun out of your pocket...
 
I have a Beretta .21A in .22LR. Very small, much smaller than my 637. You can carry it hammer down on a loaded chamber because it's double action and the barrel is a tip up barrel - so no need for cocking and uncocking to load and unload. Underpowered, sure. But 8 rounds of .22 in someone's face should be a definite deterrent. Plus another 7 rounds are only a mag change away - vs another 5 rounds in a bulky speedloader for the 637.

But both do fit nicely in a front pocket, although the J frame is still bulkier and less comfortable to carry. My Kahr K9 is definitely NOT a pocket gun, although my PPK (sold to buy the Kahr) was. PPK was a .380, the K9 is 9mm... the K9 is a LOT less expensive to practice with, though.

If I could get one, I'd definitely get a Bond Defender in .45 for pocket. Only 2 shots, but two shots with some definite authority to them!
 
I have a Jennings P22 and had a Raven .25. Neither of then are designed to be carried with one in the chamber. You can but you take your life in your own hands.

If you should really NEED to use it, having to pull it out, and rack the slide before you can use it, could get you killed.

They are also not well known for feeding reliably.

Not recommended IMHO. Get a jframe....I did. I dumped the .25 and keep the .22 for conversational purposes only.

Dwarven1's idea of a Baretta .22 is an EXCELLENT choice if you don't want the jframe.
 
Last edited:
Get a Seecamp. Best pocket gun out there. Well, available in MA anyway. .32 is not ideal for SD but it is better than nothing. My Seecamp is with me when I would normally have nothing and much better than .22/.25. 100% concealable in almost all pockets with the right holster.

Holster choice is a big issue with pocket guns. A ton of choices out there for the Seecamp. Somre really great ones. But, other small .22/.25 guns I am guessing the selection is limited.

For me a J-frame just won't conceal in a pocket but it is great gun and everyone should have one. I just need something a bit smaller most of the time.

Contrary to popular opinion they are extremely reliable. You just have to use ammo it likes.
 
As an aside... at the Franklin Lodge Turkey Shoot, our Sr Deacon (who DOES have his LTC, and who I'm trying to get to read NES) was blown away (so to speak) at how well concealed the shootin' irons were of those of us who carried... he only knew because we ran a "Run What ya brung" stage. It WAS kind of funny to see the look on his face when my 1911 came out from under the sweatshirt and the Beretta came out from the pocket.

Now if only cane guns weren't illegal... since I'm using a cane at the moment while I'm still in the walking cast. [smile]
 
dbhn said:
Holster choice is a big issue with pocket guns. A ton of choices out there for the Seecamp. Somre really great ones. But, other small .22/.25 guns I am guessing the selection is limited.
Click to expand...
Yes, you are guessing. [wink] Here's a sample of what's out there just for the Beretta.
 
dbhn said:
Get a Seecamp. Best pocket gun out there. Well, available in MA anyway. .32 is not ideal for SD but it is better than nothing. My Seecamp is with me when I would normally have nothing and much better than .22/.25. 100% concealable in almost all pockets with the right holster.

Holster choice is a big issue with pocket guns. A ton of choices out there for the Seecamp. Somre really great ones. But, other small .22/.25 guns I am guessing the selection is limited.

For me a J-frame just won't conceal in a pocket but it is great gun and everyone should have one. I just need something a bit smaller most of the time.

Contrary to popular opinion they are extremely reliable. You just have to use ammo it likes.
Click to expand...


I have to agree with this 100%. The Seecamp is a thing of beauty. Mine is 100% reliable; I use the ammo that Seecamp specifies, and at typical self-defense ranges I have no trouble hitting the target at all. I find that it points very naturally. I have very large hands, too, and that is no problem either. I like the small wheel guns, but they are harder to conceal.
 
The Goose said:
There is a WTB post in the classifieds for a pocket gun and folks have been tossing in posts with opinions and advice . TYPE01313 suggested starting a thread about the subject so here it is. This is one of my faorite topics.

I pocket carry every day and have for several years. I have experimented with different pistols and revolvers, but I always come back to my S&W j frame. It is the second handgun I ever bought and probably the one I will never part with. It is a 342 Titanium frame .38 and it is my constant companion. Sometimes I pocket carry a S&W 60 all steel .357, but it is a bit too heavy for some trousers.

I wear Dockers every day with a tucked in white work shirt. I do sales and estimating. I go into homes and businesses of all types. I might go from a boardroom in downtown Boston to an attic or crawlspace in the suburbs. I may have to climb, crawl, lift, reach and contort in a variety of ways at any given time. When the ladder is too short I might have to chin up into an attic hatch. My j frame sits securely and discreetly in my pocket. I have toyed with vests and cover garments over an IWB, but have never felt 100% secure. I have had an IWB get hung up trying to sueeze my considerable girth through a tight area.
Bottom line is that pocket carry works for me every day in every situation and when I am off work and can carry my .45 more confidently the j frame becomes a BUG.

In cooler weather when I wear a jacket a whole world of other carrying opportunities presents itself. I wear a Cabelas barn coat with vertical chest level pockets with velcro closures. Before I get into the car I can move the j frame and holster into the chest pocket which I believe is the MOST accessible form of carry in a car with a seat belt on. It is very fast. Late at night while walking back to a deserted parking garage in the wee hours I can move the j frame into a side jacket pocket and discreetly walk with my hand on my gun. Likewise if I am waiting for a client in front of a building in a really bad area I can do the same thing. In a jam I can even shoot through the pocket and have practiced this in training classes. In my opinion the j frame is truly a close quarters fighting gun with a host of tactical advantages.

In terms of accessories I use either a Desantis Nemesis or a Mika pocket holster. I have also used a cheap Uncle Mikes with great satisfaction. In jacket weather I carry 2 speedloaders in my jacket or coat pocket. In the summer I carry a speed strip in a pants pocket. Add my Spyderco folder and OC and I feel well armed. Also Surefire flashlight which I use constantly for work purposes.

Ammo: Speer 135 gr. Gold Dots.

I have tried other "pocket" guns, but I will stick to my j frame. Here are what I have tried:

Seecamp .32: heavy for it's size, hard to shoot (does not fit my hand at all), ammo picky, and I cannot hit anything with it. Also underpowered.

Kel Tec P3AT .380: feels like a toy, must be kept very clean, mine would consistently malfunction after 20 - 25 rds. Also underpowered.

Sig 230, 232 & Walther PPKS .380: Very heavy for what they are, reliable, but underpowered, only a couple more rounds then the j frame.

AMT Back up .45: Big, clunky, inaccurate & unreliable

Glock 26/27: just too big (for me) to pocket carry every day.

Beretta Tomcat .32: I actually like this pistol. Fits my hand pretty well. Reliable, but under powered.

Charter Arms Bulldog .44: Mine is very old with a 2" barrel. Actually carries nicely. Accurate. Mine rattles and scares me. Best left in the safe.

Those are other pocket guns I have tried. I will say that even the smallest semi auto did not conceal any better then my j frame. Any time or place that I could carry the Kel Tec I could carry my j frame. It has never ever had a single malfundtion of any type. It goes bang every time. I have put thousands of rounds through it and it is as tight as the day I bought it. I have taken a few different snubby specific classes and have put hundreds of rounds through it in one day. At 30' I can put all 5 shots well within a 5.5" shoot N C target with confidence. Certainly adequate for close range self defense. Most significantly it is with me always.

In my experience the very small semi autos are spotty in terms of reliabilty, difficult to shoot well, under powered and with only a minimal advantage in terms of increased firepower and perhaps (??) faster reloads. My little semi autos mostly sit in the safe because I have yet to find a time when I can't conceal my j frame just as easily.

Everything stated above is my opinion based upon my personal experience. Your results may differ. I would love to hear other thoughts.
Click to expand...

Agreed on almost all counts, and an excellent, well-written post.

Rep point added. [smile]
 
I had a Sterling. Emphasis on the "had." Single action, tiny safety and a thin, stamped, external transfer bar that screamed "Accidental Discharge!"

"I have a Beretta .21A in .22LR. Very small, much smaller than my 637. You can carry it hammer down on a loaded chamber because it's double action and the barrel is a tip up barrel - so no need for cocking and uncocking to load and unload. Underpowered, sure. But 8 rounds of .22 in someone's face should be a definite deterrent. Plus another 7 rounds are only a mag change away - vs another 5 rounds in a bulky speedloader for the 637."

I've got the same basic gun, but in .25. More power, less chance of a cartridge catching on the rim of a carelessly-loaded cartridge. I can carry loaded, hammer-down because of the long trigger pull and inertia firing pin. Very light.
 
Scrivener said:
I've got the same basic gun, but in .25. More power, less chance of a cartridge catching on the rim of a carelessly-loaded cartridge. I can carry loaded, hammer-down because of the long trigger pull and inertia firing pin. Very light.
Click to expand...
While I like the design of the 21A and the 950, the next .25 auto I own will be my first... and it will never happen. I have YET to see a .25 that wasn't a jammomatic - even with factory FMJ. I'd rather have the .22 - I've wrung it out on the range and I know that it will go bang with the proper ammo... Federal bulk pack stuff from Wally World. Maybe sometime I'll try Stingers out, but the manual says to stay away from the hypervelocity stuff, and I have to assume that they know their gun better than I do.
 
I had a Seecamp .32.....

While it was a nice looking gun, it didn't live with me for more
than about 6 months or so.

-Required a DEATH GRIP to keep it from jamming. As long as you
made your hand hurt when shooting it, it wouldn't jam! [laugh]

-The whole "mag at least partially the gun to open the slide"
thing just pissed me off in so many ways. [sad2]

-Was easy to break/screw up if you didn't know what you were
doing. (yes, I busted one of those springs).

One thing I can say about it, is despite having no sights I had
no trouble hitting what I wanted to hit with it up to about 20
feet or so. So in that regard, it did what it was designed to
do. Seecamp also has good customer service.

Was a decent pistol overall, but I'm not going to run out and
buy another one. Just didn't suit me. To me its a good
pistol to use in a picture with a Rolex next to it. It does
look very classy. [laugh]

I also had a Kahr MK9. It did work very well, hit what
it was supposed to, and handled good defensive ammo with
no trouble at all.

I only ended up dumping the MK9 because I discovered that 99%
of the time I could carry something bigger than that.

Even nowadays the smallest SD gun I own is an SW640 with
boot grips. A bit heavy to be in a pocket but still viable, and
it handles the Speer GDHP "short barrel" 357 mag load quite
well.

If I ever get another pocket auto it might be a Rohrbaugh R9 or
a Kahr PM9. Kinda doubt it though, as I find the 640 seems to
work quite well, even despite the weight. On top of that
even the 640 sees minimal use as I find myself carrying my P2000
whenever I can.


-Mike
 
dwarven1 said:
Maybe sometime I'll try Stingers out, but the manual says to stay away from the hypervelocity stuff, and I have to assume that they know their gun better than I do.
Click to expand...

My Jennings .22 will not feed any standard ammo reliably, but has never failed when using Stingers. The slightly longer case makes them feed flawlessly. I doubt the slightly higher velocity will hurt anything.
 
dwarven1 said:
While I like the design of the 21A and the 950, the next .25 auto I own will be my first... and it will never happen. I have YET to see a .25 that wasn't a jammomatic - even with factory FMJ. I'd rather have the .22 - I've wrung it out on the range and I know that it will go bang with the proper ammo... Federal bulk pack stuff from Wally World. Maybe sometime I'll try Stingers out, but the manual says to stay away from the hypervelocity stuff, and I have to assume that they know their gun better than I do.
Click to expand...

I'll bring some stingers to the shoot, you can try them then.
 
drgrant said:
I had a Seecamp .32.....

While it was a nice looking gun, it didn't live with me for more
than about 6 months or so.

-Required a DEATH GRIP to keep it from jamming. As long as you
made your hand hurt when shooting it, it wouldn't jam! [laugh]

-The whole "mag at least partially the gun to open the slide"
thing just pissed me off in so many ways. [sad2]

-Was easy to break/screw up if you didn't know what you were
doing. (yes, I busted one of those springs).

One thing I can say about it, is despite having no sights I had
no trouble hitting what I wanted to hit with it up to about 20
feet or so. So in that regard, it did what it was designed to
do. Seecamp also has good customer service.

Was a decent pistol overall, but I'm not going to run out and
buy another one. Just didn't suit me. To me its a good
pistol to use in a picture with a Rolex next to it. It does
look very classy. [laugh]

-Mike
Click to expand...


I agree, some features of the Seecamp are just downright annoying. Seecamp claims it is the cost of miniturization - you can't have it all in a gun that size.

I too have broken a spring as you cannot touch the trigger with the mag out. If you pull it, you'll bust up a spring. But, I always did learn things the hard way.

You do have to hold it pretty tight, but as long as you know that you are alright. Plus I think in a SD situation you'll be squeezing the f out of it anyway.

I have posted a question on the Seecamp forum about clearing a Type 3 and have yet to get any solid answers, even from Larry Seecamp. I am going to set one up today at the range and see how difficult it is to clear. The mag must be dropped slightly and there is no slide catch. Should be interesting.
 
I've carried a number of pocket guns through the years. I can't remember them all, but the one that I carried the most was the S&W 940 (9mm, J frame), which was my BUG back in the day.

For various reasons, I decided to move on and got my G27, which I pocket carry every day.

I wear 511 tacticals (which press up nicely for business casual) and carry the weapon quite well.
 
I have the Beretta 21 in .25 caliber as well. I chose it over the .22 model because I am more sure of ignition with the center-fire primer. The .22 is actually more powerful, but I get many non firing .22 cartridges, from all brands.

ANY gun, shoved in someones nose, will get the job done, but the real mini-guns aren't what I use anymore.

Nowadays I carry a S&W 442 .38+P, or a S&W 640-3 with .38 gold dots, and if I want, .357.

I'm small, but have no trouble pocket carrying the 442 or the 640, depending on what grips I have on it. I also have a Model 36 .38+P (Chiefs Special) that I like a lot.

With a winter coat on I most likely have a Browning Hi-Power or a Colt 45 somewhere in a zipper pocket, with the 442 in my left front pants pocket as well. I wear that every day, no matter what.

I wouldn't carry a Raven or a Jennings if I could help it.
 
Dwarven1, I just thought I'd pipe up here on this one, maybe give you some hope. I used to have an American Arms PX .25 pistol that I never experienced any kind of jam, malfunction, misfeed, etc. with. Unfortunately, that company went under 25+ years ago. I bought the gun unfired, NIB, with the packing grease still on it about a year ago, but I didn't own it for long. I put 300-400 rounds through it, with ball ammo and a box of Speer Gold Dots. I only had the one magazine that came with it, but it was a great shooting little gun.

For the $150 I paid it was awesome. I bought it specifically to pocket carry, and I never had any issues with the Uncle Mike's pocket holster I used with it. I got rid of it because I found that I could hide a snubby .38 just as well, and it hardly left the safe. On top of that, the company has been gone for so long that parts, magazines, holsters and other specific items don't exist for it.

Just figured I'd tell you though, there is hope out there for a .25 that doesn't always jam. [grin]
 

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