Pocket Guns

.22 more powerful than a .25?

IF the former is fired from a rifle, yes. IF fired from a 6" pistol barrel, maybe.

Fired from a 2" barrel? Not bloody likely. The long, thin shape of a .22 LR cartridge makes its use in a short barrel counterproductive. Lots of noise, lots of muzzle flash, but no velocity. A .22 WRFM in a pistol is even worse.

I like my .25 Beretta for those times when concealability is a challenge.
 
Scrivener, what I've read many times is the .22 caliber has more foot pounds of energy than the .25. Both are way below 200ft. lbs., and neither are great stoppers.

Like you, I like my Beretta .25. It's reliability is my first concern.

I saw a man in West Roxbury Court who killed a "friend" in a dope deal with a .25. The guy took 6 shots at close range, and didn't die right away. But the Beretta sure does hide well. Almost fits in a watch pocket.
 
depicts,

Thanks for the nice comments. I appreciate it. I'm glad the video helped.

M1911,
I have no problem with the weight of 2 SP101s and pocket carry them both all day. You just need the right kind and size of pocket and a good belt.

On day one of my Armed Response class I carry in 9 loaded guns--all concealed. After about the 2nd hour (giving people plenty of time to notice), I ask the class how many guns they think I am carrying--no one has a clue!

4pm - S&W MP45
appendix - XD Service
8pm - SP101
Pocket SP101
Packet SW640
Shirt pocket SW340
Shirt Pocket SW340
rear pants pocket - keltec 380
Rear Pants Pocket - Keltec 380

They are on me when I leave home at 7am and are removed when I get home at 7pm.

I do remove the two Keltecs during class because it is uncomfortable to sit with them in my rear pockets. The other 7 are kept all for the rest of the day. Lesson: If I can carry 7 guns all day, you (the student) can certainly carry one.
 
You just need the right kind and size of pocket and a good belt.
Click to expand...
I've got a top notch belt -- custom Alessi.

Problem is the waist (or lack of same), not the belt. My frickin' MK9 pulls my pants down. Two SP101s? Nope, doesn't work for me.

And the fact is, I shoot my MK9 and PM9 better than my SP101. YMMV.
 
I had a Kahr PM40 that I sold to a forum member--(mistake). Good pocket gun for a semi-auto. I sold it because I picked up a 360PD Scandium/Titanium J-Frame which was slightly smaller and significantly lighter. Oops, sold the Kahr before I figured out that I could not shoot the 360 worth a darn with decent defense ammo. So I sold the 360 and went back to the trusty 6906 IWB. Twelve rounds of 9mm Hydra-shocks with 12 more available in a second mag. Pretty good if not exactly a "pocket" gun.
 
Great thread, Steve. I've been starting to look into a J-frame type pocket carry option for those days when the usual IWB carry piece (Glock 30) can't come along. Reading this thread may have just sealed the deal... Time to start looking! [smile]
 
+1 with the Beretta 950 in 25 cal. I love that pistol, never a mis-fire or failure to feed...ever! Sold off a Sterling 22lr and Raven 25 last year...as mentioned previously the Sterling was a FTF waiting to happen...very picky about ammo...fun to shoot though. The Raven never had a problem but was not safe to carry with one in the chamber.
 
M1911 said:
If I put my SP101 in one of my pockets, it would be pulling my pants down. Sorry, but two SP101s are way, way, way, way, WAY too heavy for me.
Click to expand...

Huh. I switched from a 642 to a SP101 and found no difference. Then again, I probably have more padding keeping my pants up than yourself.
 
M1911 said:
642 is much lighter than an SP101. 15 oz versus around 25 oz.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt it, but they feel similar to me in my pocket. I bought a crimson trace recently, and can't decide which one to put it on (and carry). Maybe both!
 
I too, can barely feel the difference between the 642 and the SP101. I would much rather carry the SP101 as it feels better in my hand, shoots better, and is easier to control.
 
Snubbie training?

Wow! what a great topic. I myself have been moving towards the pocket carry option for my J-frame. [grin]


I also noticed some people who carry this way have a tendency to carry speed loaders or strips. I personally do not do so yet due to lack of knowledge or experience and recognize the need to get some training for pocket carry.

Does anyone have any information for some local training in the MetroWest region on this subject?
 
will99 said:
Wow! what a great topic. I myself have been moving towards the pocket carry option for my J-frame. [grin]


I also noticed some people who carry this way have a tendency to carry speed loaders or strips. I personally do not do so yet due to lack of knowledge or experience and recognize the need to get some training for pocket carry.

Does anyone have any information for some local training in the MetroWest region on this subject?
Click to expand...

Michael de Bethencourt runs a couple of snubbie-specific one day courses.
 
I'm a fan of pocket carry.

Had a Colt Pony that I pocketed around until I got an old Model 60, which lasted till I got a Model 38, which lasted (I still have it just don't carry it) until I got a Model 340 PD, which is in my pocket at the moment. [smile]
 
+1 for the J-frame S&W. Mine is titanium with the hard plastic Crimson Trace lasergrips. I believe it weighs less than 12 oz and is very comfortable where ever I want to wear it.

-Cuz.
 
will99 said:
Thanks, but I already took that class. I'm looking more specifically for any training mostly pertaining to carrying snubbies.
Click to expand...

Another +1 for De Bethencourt's classes. I just took the "essentials" a few weeks back, and it was great. Keep an eye out for when it comes back around.

(His folding knife course is good too)
 
Don't want to rain on anyone's parade here but here's a question: Can you shoot those sub-15oz. fire-breathers? One can not underemphasize the need for practice with super lightweight handguns. In my case, I just could not master the 360 Scandium/Titanium and was not confident carrying it. YMMV
 
Executive said:
Don't want to rain on anyone's parade here but here's a question: Can you shoot those sub-15oz. fire-breathers? One can not underemphasize the need for practice with super lightweight handguns. In my case, I just could not master the 360 Scandium/Titanium and was not confident carrying it. YMMV
Click to expand...
I can hardly master my 642 with .38 +P. No way I would try a lighter .357 -- those are just ways to turn money into recoil.
 
Executive said:
Can you shoot those sub-15oz. fire-breathers?
Click to expand...
F*ck, NO!

I tried JayG's 360 ONCE.

I'd rather shoot my COP4. [rolleyes] Heck, I'd rather shoot EddieCoyle's nuclear-tipped .500 magnums out of a snubbie than shoot a 360 with full-power loads again. That was PAINFUL.
 
That word you were using... I do not think it means what you think it means... [smile]

The 360PD DOES take a LOT of practice (and if I remember correctly, I had offered to let you shoot mine...) to master with .357 Magnum loads.

On at least a half-dozen occasions, I have given my loaded 360 to someone to try and received it back with three unfired rounds.

The first shot produced a pain so exquisite that they just HAVE to take one more to see if it really did hurt that bad.

However, with repeated practice it gets much easier. Also, you can stoke it with .38 special +Ps or even +P+s and it's a LOT easier to handle.

Besides, with full-power .357 Magnum rounds, if you miss your intended target the muzzle blast will set his clothes on fire... [devil]

Executive said:
Don't want to rain on anyone's parade here but here's a question: Can you shoot those sub-15oz. fire-breathers? One can not underemphasize the need for practice with super lightweight handguns. In my case, I just could not master the 360 Scandium/Titanium and was not confident carrying it. YMMV
Click to expand...
 
Jay G said:
On at least a half-dozen occasions, I have given my loaded 360 to someone to try and received it back with three unfired rounds.

The first shot produced a pain so exquisite that they just HAVE to take one more to see if it really did hurt that bad.
Click to expand...
Good grief, the sadist even ADMITS to inflicting that beast on unsuspecting shooters!! [shocked]
 
I thought about asking to try it at the pumpkin shoot, but I didn't see any 38 special rounds nearby. Watching others shoot 357s out of it was painful enough :p
 
jar said:
I thought about asking to try it at the pumpkin shoot, but I didn't see any 38 special rounds nearby. Watching others shoot 357s out of it was painful enough :p
Click to expand...

Aw man... [hmmm]

I brought plenty of .38 specials; I even brought some real pussycat reloads that would have been fine.

Next shoot, just ask. I'll bring it along, and I'll be sure to have regular .38s, .38 +P, light .357 Magnum, and full-bore .357 Mag on hand...
 
The Goose said:
I have tried other "pocket" guns, but I will stick to my j frame. Here are what I have tried:

Seecamp .32: heavy for it's size, hard to shoot (does not fit my hand at all), ammo picky, and I cannot hit anything with it. Also underpowered.

Kel Tec P3AT .380: feels like a toy, must be kept very clean, mine would consistently malfunction after 20 - 25 rds. Also underpowered.

Sig 230, 232 & Walther PPKS .380: Very heavy for what they are, reliable, but underpowered, only a couple more rounds then the j frame.

AMT Back up .45: Big, clunky, inaccurate & unreliable

Glock 26/27: just too big (for me) to pocket carry every day.

Beretta Tomcat .32: I actually like this pistol. Fits my hand pretty well. Reliable, but under powered.

Charter Arms Bulldog .44: Mine is very old with a 2" barrel. Actually carries nicely. Accurate. Mine rattles and scares me. Best left in the safe.
Click to expand...

***

Well done, Goose. Great intro to pocket guns. I'm the new guy here (FNG?), but if you will permit me, I'd like to add my comments and put my spin on it, because this is one of my favorite topics.

I've carried concealed in my career and in service to Uncle Sam for nearly 30 years now. I've been through a lot concerning what works for concealed carry, and what does not. What we think we need, isnt exactly what we need to yank our butts out of a wagon-rut is needed... and that's why we carry... right? [hmmm]

Goose, I must commend you on your choice of the J-frame. A finer, more-reliable handgun would be difficult to choose. What I wanted to add about the J-Frame is that in essence, it comprises the best of many worlds, and can perform its duties without breaking a sweat. The J-Frame is considered by many to be the perfect backup gun. In moments of stress in which a backup in needed, it is simple in form and function. Aim it and pull the trigger. In this I like the J because the simple things get the job done.

The J-Frame does take practice to shoot correctly. There is no substitute for becoming intimately-familiar with your weapon and how its shoots. My thoughts boil down to this: If you can conceal it comfortably and successfully, then pack it. You won't find a better choice in my humble opinion.

The Goose said:
Seecamp .32: heavy for it's size, hard to shoot (does not fit my hand at all), ammo picky, and I cannot hit anything with it. Also underpowered.
Click to expand...

The Seecamp is a turd. For all the above reasons, yet they do make a .380 version now, which has been plagued with cracked slides, etc. By the way, their excuse for FTF and FTE failures is largely related to the beefy slide spring they use for such a wimpy round (.32). However if you want a Seecamp-type gun, NAA makes a good-quality replica of the Seecamps, but with seemingly-fewer problems, and they are half the price to boot.

The Goose said:
Kel Tec P3AT .380: feels like a toy, must be kept very clean, mine would consistently malfunction after 20 - 25 rds. Also underpowered.
Click to expand...

I have a P3AT. It took about 500 rounds to break it in right, and to iron-out the feeding problems. It required a "Fluff & Buff" when I got it. Straight out of the box, the slide had sharp edges, and the polymer had flashing and seams from the injection-molding process that needed to be removed and cleaned up. Once this gun was reliable enough for me to deem it worthy to carry I did for a while. It was super lightweight and very concealable. Great for off-duty casual wear, the P3AT with the optional pocket-clip looks just like a folding knife in your pocket (providing you aren't wearing tight pants).

All in all, I like the P3AT. Its a cheap gun, and a exercise in self-discipline to get it in fighting shape. Some may disagree with me, but a bond is formed when you work hard with something to mold it towards your liking. Oh, and the .380 ammo is just fine. Corbon makes powerball ammo which has the same velocities as some of the lesser 9mmx19 loads.

NOW Kel-Tec makes a PF9, which is a single-stack 9mm. Slightly bigger than the P3AT, but slightly smaller than the PF11 (a double-stacker). I've heard its a sweet sweet gun, and I ordered one yesterday. [grin]

The Goose said:
Sig 230, 232 & Walther PPKS .380: Very heavy for what they are, reliable, but underpowered, only a couple more rounds then the j frame.

AMT Back up .45: Big, clunky, inaccurate & unreliable

Glock 26/27: just too big (for me) to pocket carry every day.
Click to expand...

Its is my personal belief that these guns are weak miniaturizations of full-sized models. When the boardroom execs discovered they were missing out on the pocket-gun market segment, they issued orders for the engineers to invent one. Being fiscally-prudent, the managers in charge decided a miniaturization project would be less-costly, instead of developing a small gun that performs like a big gun. Oh no, they had to go and trim a big gun around the edges and call it good. [rolleyes]

The Goose said:
Beretta Tomcat .32: I actually like this pistol. Fits my hand pretty well. Reliable, but under powered.
Click to expand...

It is beyond me why anyone would buy one of these with intent on self-defense. Its a .32 ferchrissakes! Its okay for shooting paper targets at the carnival booth, but would you trust your life to it? Its another whole rant entirely, but anything less than a .380 or 9mm and you are asking for trouble. JMHO

Right now, I carry a Sig Sauer P239. It is a splendid marriage of form and function, and conceals well. Although its a little bigger than the Kahr MK9/PM9, it shares none of the quality issues plaguing the Kahrs. The Sig is a solid, substantial gun. It works and runs beautifully, like a fine swiss clock, or a sewing machine. It feels good in the hand. Its shoots very well, and well, I like it. There is no strongarm BS to contend with this pistole, either. You want to shoot it limp-wristed? Go right ahead. I haven't been able to make mine jam or FTF or FTE.

So thanks for reading my little brain-spill. It happens sometimes! Peace, and God Bless!
 

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