Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

[pastera]

Ah crap. You're right.

I gotta go edit all those posts now.

Thanks.

No problem - it's not easy pasting together all of ramifications of each line of text.
The formatting seems designed to make it impossible to do a plain text reading - that's why I have been trying to reformat my citations to be readable by those that don't consume hours of this bullshit.

 

[bigbravehog]

No problem - it's not easy pasting together all of ramifications of each line of text.
The formatting seems designed to make it impossible to do a plain text reading - that's why I have been trying to reformat my citations to be readable by those that don't consume hours of this bullshit.

its much appreciated

I'm working two jobs right now and don't have the time to read the lengthy legislation or GOALs responses.

 

[Rockrivr1]

You can put me on ignore like a lot of other people and get by on lots of faith and hopium - it's funny when I now see people getting hot over rumors the police being trained on the interpretation that I (and others) said was the only way to read it given the Supreme Court's published rules of interpretation.

Naaaa... I was throwing a joke. Nothing worthing of an ignore list. Some good info here, but was slightly getting my hopes up about the mag transfer thing. Guess not.

 

[pastera]

Naaaa... I was throwing a joke. Nothing worthing of an ignore list. Some good info here, but was slightly getting my hopes up about the mag transfer thing. Guess not.

As was I
The messenger always gets a bite of the shit sandwich - sometimes it takes me a day or two to get over it.

This bill is a shit show and I think Healy will double down by asking the legislature to drop an emergency bill on her desk to put this thing into action immediately in order to bypass the referendum. The question on that one is if the courts will allow that to happen since the bill amounted to a taking if passed with an emergency preamble and without text updating 131m to allow time to dispossess banned guns would be a constitutional issue now with an emergency amendment passed.

 

[drgrant]

As was I
The messenger always gets a bite of the shit sandwich - sometimes it takes me a day or two to get over it.

This bill is a shit show and I think Healy will double down by asking the legislature to drop an emergency bill on her desk to put this thing into action immediately in order to bypass the referendum. The question on that one is if the courts will allow that to happen since the bill amounted to a taking if passed with an emergency preamble and without text updating 131m to allow time to dispossess banned guns would be a constitutional issue now with an emergency amendment passed.

So to access the preamble she has to sign another bill?

 

[VigilantesLiberi]

So to access the preamble she has to sign another bill?

This is what the AG is delaying for, as I guessed, to let Maura sign the emergency preamble. The petition is 100% constitutional, they are not sure if the preamble actually is given the word soup they pushed into law.

 

[Cuz]

Wait a minute, I thought if you didn’t understand it, you could ignore it because it obviously doesn’t apply to you…

 

[pastera]

So to access the preamble she has to sign another bill?

From my understanding - she has the power to add a preamble at the time of signing. After signature, the bill is law and only the legislature can modify a law by amending it with another bill.
I was wrong in my understanding - the governor can at any time file the preamble.

Massachusetts Constitution

malegislature.gov

if the governor, at any time before the election at which it is to be submitted to the people on referendum, files with the secretary of the commonwealth a statement declaring that in his opinion the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, safety or convenience requires that such law should take effect forthwith and that it is an emergency law and setting forth the facts constituting the emergency, then such law, if not previously suspended as hereinafter provided, shall take effect without suspension, or if such law has been so suspended such suspension shall thereupon terminate and such law shall thereupon take effect:

The bolded part will be an issue - since she is the one that declared in 2016 that C&D were an issue but did nothing.
And when presented with the opportunity to correct that "shortfall" neither the legislature nor the governor herself deemed the law to be an emergency until presented with opposition.
It is clear to any court that the bill was not and is not an emergency and declaring it as such is a simply reaction to meeting resistance to its enactment.

 

[MAJoe]

You can put me on ignore like a lot of other people and get by on lots of faith and hopium - it's funny when I now see people getting hot over rumors the police being trained on the interpretation that I (and others) said was the only way to read it given the Supreme Court's published rules of interpretation.

Compliance modification

The AG is staking out a position that an MA defined AW cannot be "made compliant". Note slide #36 from the dealer training:

www.northeastshooters.com

It’s been that way since 2023 under the old law too. I can’t find the link to the full training anymore, but police have been trained on the press release being law.

 

[pastera]

Compliance modification

The AG is staking out a position that an MA defined AW cannot be "made compliant". Note slide #36 from the dealer training:

www.northeastshooters.com

It’s been that way since 2023 under the old law too. I can’t find the link to the full training anymore, but police have been trained on the press release being law.

And as of 10/23 or whenever Healy signs an emergency preamble then that will be the legal interpretation of the law.

 

[straightshooterjake]

From my understanding - she has the power to add a preamble at the time of signing. After signature, the bill is law and only the legislature can modify a law by amending it with another bill.
I was wrong in my understanding - the governor can at any time file the preamble.

Massachusetts Constitution

malegislature.gov

The bolded part will be an issue - since she is the one that declared in 2016 that C&D were an issue but did nothing.
And when presented with the opportunity to correct that "shortfall" neither the legislature nor the governor herself deemed the law to be an emergency until presented with opposition.
It is clear to any court that the bill was not and is not an emergency and declaring it as such is a simply reaction to meeting resistance to its enactment.

There are many facts to argue that this law is not an emergency. Most specifically, that it was not given an emergency preamble to start with, and the excessive delays in bringing it forward. However, the word "convenience" in the section on reasons that the Governor can add a preamble makes me suspect that courts will find little if any barrier to the Governor's ability to add the emergency declaration.

 

[MAJoe]

And as of 10/23 or whenever Healy signs an emergency preamble then that will be the legal interpretation of the law.

But what’s interesting is if this training was followed, almost all dealers in the state would be in trouble. How many dealers didn’t sell copies and duplicates, but sold rifles that had compliance work done? An MCX that came with a flash hider, but later had a brake pinned before sale according to this is not okay. That’s what police were trained on.

I feel like it’s going to be a charge of convenience. You have a license suspended and guns seized, it’ll be added on and plead out, especially if there are other charges.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Unless I am reading the bill wrong, they just legalized some shit they may not have intended to.

Take hand guns.... It used to be that the feature check included the ability to accept a detachable magazine as one of the two features. Now according to the law, it is the ability to accept a detachable magazine PLUS 2 features.

H4885 Sumary by Subject Matter

www.goal.org

See page 9 of the actual bill:

Massachusetts H4885 | 2023-2024 | 193rd General Court

Bill Text (2024-07-25) Modernizing firearm laws [Signed by the Governor, Chapter 135 of the Acts of 2024]

legiscan.com

a semiautomatic pistol with the capacity to accept a detachable feeding device and includes at least 2 of the following features:
the capacity to accept a feeding device that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip
a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand
a threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer
a shroud that encircles either all or part of the barrel designed to shield the bearer’s hand from heat, excluding a slide that encloses the barrel.


A pistol with a detachable magazine and a threaded barrel does not meet the above definition as it only has a detachable mag and ONE feature.

Previously, the mag was one on the features in the feature check. Now it's explicitly called out separately, plus 2 features. Which means it is now legal, or soon will be, to own a pistol with a detachable mag AND a threaded barrel, for example. Previously, that was not legal. So now, I could go out and get a threaded barrel and a flash hider for my VP9 - for example, and be perfectly legal.... Thanks Marsha!!!

Am I reading this wrong - or did they f*** up? Because I doubt that was the intent... Looks like daddy is in the market for new toys.

 

[drgrant]

But what’s interesting is if this training was followed, almost all dealers in the state would be in trouble. How many dealers didn’t sell copies and duplicates, but sold rifles that had compliance work done? An MCX that came with a flash hider, but later had a brake pinned before sale according to this is not okay. That’s what police were trained on.

I feel like it’s going to be a charge of convenience. You have a license suspended and guns seized, it’ll be added on and plead out, especially if there are other charges.

It's not going to be a charge of anything. *groan*

This is meaningless crap in the grand scheme of 4885.

 

[CrackPot]

Unless I am reading the bill wrong, they just legalized some shit they may not have intended to.

Take hand guns.... It used to be that the feature check included the ability to accept a detachable magazine as one of the two features. Now according to the law, it is the ability to accept a detachable magazine PLUS 2 features.

H4885 Sumary by Subject Matter

www.goal.org

See page 9 of the actual bill:

Massachusetts H4885 | 2023-2024 | 193rd General Court

Bill Text (2024-07-25) Modernizing firearm laws [Signed by the Governor, Chapter 135 of the Acts of 2024]

legiscan.com

a semiautomatic pistol with the capacity to accept a detachable feeding device and includes at least 2 of the following features:
the capacity to accept a feeding device that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip
a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand
a threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer
a shroud that encircles either all or part of the barrel designed to shield the bearer’s hand from heat, excluding a slide that encloses the barrel.


A pistol with a detachable magazine and a threaded barrel does not meet the above definition as it only has a detachable mag and ONE feature.

Previously, the mag was one on the features in the feature check. Now it's explicitly called out separately, plus 2 features. Which means it is now legal, or soon will be, to own a pistol with a detachable mag AND a threaded barrel, for example. Previously, that was not legal. So now, I could go out and get a threaded barrel and a flash hider for my VP9 - for example, and be perfectly legal.... Thanks Marsha!!!

Am I reading this wrong - or did they f*** up? Because I doubt that was the intent... Looks like daddy is in the market for new toys.

This is identical to the old pre-conditions. Rifles and pistols were always semi auto with a detachable mag and TWO of the following features ARE an assault weapon or now a ASF. So one feature is fine. If not semi or no detachable, then not an AW or ASF.

The features being tested for have changed for both rifle and pistol.

The addition of a second grip is only partially impactful since a VFG always made a pistol an AOW under federal law. So a non vertical grip on a pistol is now a feature. The real change is that all barrel shrouds that are not slides are features so that wipes out a lot of stuff.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

This is identical to the old pre-conditions. Rifles and pistols were always semi auto with a detachable mag and TWO of the following features ARE an assault weapon or now a ASF. So one feature is fine. If not semi or no detachable, then not an AW or ASF.

The features being tested for have changed for both rifle and pistol.

The addition of a second grip is only partially impactful since a VFG always made a pistol an AOW under federal law. So a non vertical grip on a pistol is now a feature. The real change is that all barrel shrouds that are not slides are features so that wipes out a lot of stuff.

Oh, okay. So a threaded barrel on an atypical pistol was always fine then.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[CrackPot]

But what’s interesting is if this training was followed, almost all dealers in the state would be in trouble. How many dealers didn’t sell copies and duplicates, but sold rifles that had compliance work done? An MCX that came with a flash hider, but later had a brake pinned before sale according to this is not okay. That’s what police were trained on.

I feel like it’s going to be a charge of convenience. You have a license suspended and guns seized, it’ll be added on and plead out, especially if there are other charges.

Ive seen the training deck. As often happens when the state creates collateral, a lot of it is more aspirational than factual.

Firearms License Frequently Asked Questions

This is a list of firearms related frequently asked questions.

www.mass.gov

This FAQ has as much incorrect in at as correct. They state an unloaded handgun not under your direct control must be in a locked container for transport. The law says no such thing. Read MGL 140 131C.

The MIRCS FA10 website has "registration" and wants you to record guns when you move into the state. Again, none of this aligns with the law.

So on the training, who cares? The reality is that the police and DAs know Chap 269 Sec 10 and that is it. That is how you charge people w/o licenses. I have picked up guns from the police multiple times that we unambiguously illegal for a resident of MA to possess. THEY DONT CARE. You will find the occasional anal department that will charge people for crap, but a good lawyer almost always makes this go away.

Remember, if you own guns in MA, you are a felon in waiting. If that bothers you, don't own guns.

 

[CrackPot]

Oh, okay. So a threaded barrel on an atypical pistol was always fine then.

Thanks for clarifying.

A threaded barrel on a semi auto pistol with a detachable mag was always fine as long as it was the only evil feature. Yes. The structure is the same, the impact is a little different. Lots that was legal is now illegal. Some stuff that was illegal is now legal. The goal posts moved.

 

[silversquirrel]

A reminder that all this only applies to law abiding licensed gun owners.
For bad guys its business as usual.

 

[CrackPot]

A reminder that all this only applies to law abiding licensed gun owners.
For bad guys its business as usual.

Which is why DAs only know 269 10, what you charge a bad guy with and then drop the charges...

 

[ThePreBanMan]

What if I identify as an illegal alien? The laws don't seem to apply to them.

 

[M1911]

Sooooo, sell the gun at asking price and then give the mags for free. I know very weak but I didn’t read anything regarding giving stuff away being illegal.

The law bans transfers of standard capacity magazines. So you can’t give it away to a resident of MA.

There is no simple wallhack around this law.

 

[dgrafton]

Today no one w/o a ammo sellers license, INCLUDING LTC holders can lawfully sell ammo. So a dealer license includes ammo in the new law so 3 licenses collapse to 2 for most dealers. Clubs can now get a club license. I dont think anyone could get a ammo license under todays law w/o a FFL 01/06/07/08/10/etc

I dont think this added to clubs burden, but made lawful what they have been doing illegally up to now.

If a club follows through and gets a club license, does that then put the club in violation of the humanoid target law if they host action sports? (Or even just allow individuals to bring their own IPSC/IDPA targets)

 

[Spartan65]

The law bans transfers of standard capacity magazines. So you can’t give it away to a resident of MA.

There is no simple wallhack around this law.

Drive to NH, hand it over, drive home.

 

[M1911]

Drive to NH, hand it over, drive home.

Which is stated in the law — dispose of it out of state. That is not a wall hack around the law.

 

[drgrant]

Which is stated in the law — dispose of it out of state. That is not a wall hack around the law.

The bad thing happened somewhere it isn't bad. Then it reduces the impact to 1 party maybe.

Regardless it's nearly unenforceable, unless the people involved in this "heinous crime" are really, really stupid.

 

[CrackPot]

Drive to NH, hand it over, drive home.

Yes, but the person you handed it over to cannot bring it back into MA. 131M says you cannot import into the Commonwealth a large capacity feeding device. Once it leaves, it is gone.

But as @drgrant says, this is all pretty unenforceable.

 

[DJBrad]

If a club follows through and gets a club license, does that then put the club in violation of the humanoid target law if they host action sports? (Or even just allow individuals to bring their own IPSC/IDPA targets)

Only the carve outs for law enforcement exist.


122B

(c) The club shall:
(i) not permit shooting at targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties;

 

[TLB]

The bad thing happened somewhere it isn't bad. Then it reduces the impact to 1 party maybe.

Regardless it's nearly unenforceable, unless the people involved in this "heinous crime" are really, really stupid.

It's like no one smoked pot in the 80s because it was illegal. Amirite? Can't be passing those illegal joints.

ETA: Except now those joints are legal for you to keep if you already had them. Good luck with that.

 

[M1911]

It's like no one smoked pot in the 80s because it was illegal. Amirite? Can't be passing those illegal joints.

ETA: Except now those joints are legal for you to keep if you already had them. Good luck with that.

What was the penalty for a small amount of weed back in the day? What is the penalty for illegal importing a standard cap magazine under the new law?