RMR, optic, Red Dot for a Glock?

[DJBrad]

Thanks, that‘s what I meant to express. If Apple was willing to spend an extra dollar on their iPhone components, it wouldn’t have any issues. It’s the greed of American companies.

And the materialism of Americans. The same guys hating on China are the same ones that benefited for their entire lives on globalization with a cheap labor class and cheap commodities while America exported it’s inflation overseas for 40 years gutting the industrial sector to import cheap goods for the gluttonous masses. Without a reserve currency, powerful military industrial complex, and poor resource rich nations we would not be where we are today but things are changing. Some lament foreigners selling US debt but what do you expect when the debt grows unfettered and uncontrolled?


I’m a capitalist so Holosun is good with me.

 

[Supermoto]

 

[mav]

OP asked for recommendations for an optic for his MOS pistol, not opinions on whether or not he should support China. Holosun is a private Chinese company, it is not owned by the CCP. I don’t mind supporting Chinese people, the people are not the government. Sure they pay taxes to the CCP, but if you go by that logic, then buying USA made products mean you are supporting years of bombings in the Middle East.

And for the ignoramus who have never been to China, their manufacturing and technology is light years ahead of us. You don’t see many high quality “made in China“ products here because ppl don‘t want to pay for the quality, so they send us the cheapest crap they can make.

So you’re a China apologist. Good to know. Feel free to move back to China and enjoy life in Communist hell home with zero freedoms and complete government control.

As to your assertion they are “light years ahead” of us, you are so wrong it isn’t funny and show your ignorance of real manufacturing processes, techniques and technologies. They are a cheap joke.

The US manufacturers the the best military equipment. in the world. What can China produce? Converting a 50yo Soviet era Aircraft carrier? How about Nuclear submarines? Let’s change tracks… Taiwan manufacturers the worlds most advanced chips and is not China, in case you didn’t know. China is a polluted authoritarian joke. And no, I don’t seperate the people from the government/party. The people killed millions to install that government and most go along with everything the party says. They are complicit.

Now please tell us how they are superior manufacturers…

 

[mav]

And the materialism of Americans. The same guys hating on China are the same ones that benefited for their entire lives on globalization with a cheap labor class and cheap commodities while America exported it’s inflation overseas for 40 years gutting the industrial sector to import cheap goods for the gluttonous masses. Without a reserve currency, powerful military industrial complex, and poor resource rich nations we would not be where we are today but things are changing. Some lament foreigners selling US debt but what do you expect when the debt grows unfettered and uncontrolled?


I’m a capitalist so Holosun is good with me.

Dude, I drive german, wear italian, get my time from Swiss, ski Austrian, shoot German, Austrian and American and play games on Taiwanese and Japanese. The only thing other than American Chinese food that is “China” in my life is likely produced by Apple, and those macbooks were provided by work. I go 4 years plus between phones so China isn’t getting a whole lot of money from me. I take zero meds and go out of my way to buy non-China products.

Also, being a capitalist isn’t mutually exclusive with not buying China. We were Capitalists in the 50’s and fought China… and there is zero capitalism in China. There is zero private ownership in China given the Party and government can at any time take whatever it wants, change the “rules” and put folks in jail, all in the name of the party.

 

[M1911]

Folks, dial back the personal attacks.

 

[frenchman]

Aimpoint’s primary target market is militaries around the western world. Things like solar or the shake awake thingy just add complexity to an optic. The more features a red dot has, the more shit can go wrong. And shit going wrong can and will get you killed in the field. Never change a running system.
What most people don’t grasp is that when you buy a mil grade optic, you don’t pay that much for features. What you pay for is ruggedness and extensive R+D and testing. As a person who doesn’t do “range toys”, I myself take simply and rugged over feature rich any day.

 

[paul73]

Things like solar or the shake awake thingy just add complexity to an optic.

yep, complexity sucks.
here is a perfect made in usa $1000 sight design innovation:

 

[frenchman]

yep, complexity sucks.
here is a perfect made in usa $1000 sight design innovation:

Those look like they add 120 MOA or more.

 

[M1911]

Aimpoint’s primary target market is militaries around the western world. Things like solar or the shake awake thingy just add complexity to an optic. The more features a red dot has, the more shit can go wrong. And shit going wrong can and will get you killed in the field. Never change a running system.
What most people don’t grasp is that when you buy a mil grade optic, you don’t pay that much for features. What you pay for is ruggedness and extensive R+D and testing. As a person who doesn’t do “range toys”, I myself take simply and rugged over feature rich any day.

In this case, we are talking about slide-mounted pistol optics. Aimpoint's entry, the ACRO P1, was fielded with pathetic battery life (like a couple months). It was relatively quickly replaced with the better P2.

I don't think the ACRO is being fielded by militaries. It isn't like T1/T2.

 

[frenchman]

Never understood the ACRO, nor did I ever like the idea of a “tunnel” on a pistol. I agree with you that it’s one of the Aimpoints that I consider a failure.

 

[mav]

In this case, we are talking about slide-mounted pistol optics. Aimpoint's entry, the ACRO P1, was fielded with pathetic battery life (like a couple months). It was relatively quickly replaced with the better P2.

I don't think the ACRO is being fielded by militaries. It isn't like T1/T2.

True but @frenchman's post applies to Trijicon RMR's as well. Trijicons just need to work. Period. Innovation and complexity go hand in hand. I would also argue that the reason Holosun "innovates" is because there products aren't mil-spec and quality, simplicity and durability aren't as important to their customer base as much as price and features. Look at the conversation here? Folks who are price sensitive will look at their products. Folks who are looking for mil-spec reliability/durability and aren't price-sensitive are looking at other brands. That is without going into the "support Chinese companies" arguments.

Also, Trijicon had fiberoptic/tritium optics that essentially worked off the sun well before Holosun was even a company... solar powered isn't an innovation and is one more thing that can go wrong at the most inopportune time the way Holosun has it built. Trijicon's fiber/tritium worked with zero moving parts, batteries, etc. Few points of failure.

 

[Supermoto]

Aimpoint’s primary target market is militaries around the western world. Things like solar or the shake awake thingy just add complexity to an optic. The more features a red dot has, the more shit can go wrong. And shit going wrong can and will get you killed in the field. Never change a running system.
What most people don’t grasp is that when you buy a mil grade optic, you don’t pay that much for features. What you pay for is ruggedness and extensive R+D and testing. As a person who doesn’t do “range toys”, I myself take simply and rugged over feature rich any day.

Yeah like the extensive testing Eotech did with their shifting zero.

Mil-spec isn't the highest level. It is the least acceptable

 

[M1911]

Never understood the ACRO, nor did I ever like the idea of a “tunnel” on a pistol. I agree with you that it’s one of the Aimpoints that I consider a failure.

Closed emitters have a few advantages. If you get dirt or snow between an open emitter and the lens, then you won’t see the dot and it is hard to clear. That can’t happen on a closed emitter like the ACRO — all you need to do is brush off the front or rear lens.

Second, there are those who claim that it is easier to find the dot with a closed emitter, because the tube helps you fix the presentation. I haven’t shot a closed emitter, so I can’t comment on that.

 

[M1911]

True but @frenchman's post applies to Trijicon RMR's as well. Trijicons just need to work. Period. Innovation and complexity go hand in hand. I would also argue that the reason Holosun "innovates" is because there products aren't mil-spec and quality, simplicity and durability aren't as important to their customer base as much as price and features. Look at the conversation here? Folks who are price sensitive will look at their products. Folks who are looking for mil-spec reliability/durability and aren't price-sensitive are looking at other brands.

I disagree. I run both Trijicons and Holosun’s on concealed carry guns. I didn’t buy the Holosun for its price. I bought the 507k for its features — correct size and footprint for my 43x, ease of battery replacement.

Right now, I’m looking for a Holosun EPS carry because I want to try a closed emitter and I need one for a gun with a thinner slide — an RMR is too wide for this gun. I’m not buying based on price. Heck, I’ve got an extra SRO in my safe awaiting a gun to get a slide cut.

You are making a mistake if you think all Holosun buyers are primarily budget driven.

 

[mav]

You the like the extensive testing Eotech did with their shifting zero.

Mil-spec isn't the highest level. It is the least acceptable

Not apologizing for Eotech's failure in terms of thermal drift affecting zero, but my understanding is that is also the case for Aimpoints and almost any emitter-based optic. Also, it was an edge case. Even in the military, not many units were dealing with changing temps to that degree...

From USSOCOM
"The first is the reliability of the HWS in extreme temperatures, referred to as “Thermal Drift”. The PMO has noted a +/- 4 MOA shift at -40 Deg F and 122 Deg F."

 

[mav]

I disagree. I run both Trijicons and Holosun’s on concealed carry guns. I didn’t buy the Holosun for its price. I bought the 507k for its features — correct size and footprint for my 43x, ease of battery replacement.

Right now, I’m looking for a Holosun EPS carry because I want to try a closed emitter and I need one for a gun with a thinner slide — an RMR is too wide for this gun. I’m not buying based on price. Heck, I’ve got an extra SRO in my safe awaiting a gun to get a slide cut.

You are making a mistake if you think all Holosun buyers are primarily budget driven.

OK, so ease of battery replacement seems a lark because we only replace batteries once every 1-2 years. I don't care if I have to unmount my RMR, replace the battery, remount and confirm zero once in 1-2years. Also, a battery failure is why we run co-witnessed irons. As to size, sure, you're looking for the best fit for a carry. RMR doesn't fit the bill given you're saying the RMR is too wide and an SRO is slightly bigger. I'm sure there are other manufacturers that produce a smaller footprint RMR. Leupold for instance. As to trusting your life with a Chinese product, I wouldn't do it. Range toy, maybe, but not on a carry gun.

 

[mav]

Yeah like the extensive testing Eotech did with their shifting zero.

Mil-spec isn't the highest level. It is the least acceptable

I disagree. It really depends on what we're talking about in terms of standards. I would argue that our milspec comm gear was some of the best available at the time, so much so that I was required to have secret clearance to use it. I also don't consider Trijicon's "least acceptable", nor Aimpoint. Eotech got blasted for the thermal drift, but only because they said it wasn't an issue. As I posted, that issue impacts all emitter based optics. Aimpoint just warned about it.

 

[Supermoto]

How many holosun failures have you seen?

 

[M1911]

OK, so ease of battery replacement seems a lark because we only replace batteries once every 1-2 years. I don't care if I have to unmount my RMR, replace the battery, remount and confirm zero once in 1-2years. Also, a battery failure is why we run co-witnessed irons. As to size, sure, you're looking for the best fit for a carry. RMR doesn't fit the bill given you're saying the RMR is too wide and an SRO is slightly bigger. I'm sure there are other manufacturers that produce a smaller footprint RMR. Leupold for instance. As to trusting your life with a Chinese product, I wouldn't do it. Range toy, maybe, but not on a carry gun.

Aaron Cowan has done a lot of testing of Holosun optics. They are quite good.

No, the battery replacement issue on an RMR is not “a lark”. The battery location on the RMR sucks. I properly replace it once a year. This involves removing the RMR from the slide, cleaning and degreasing the screws, replacing the battery, installing the RMR on the slide, putting the correct thread locker on the screws, torquing the screws properly, sealing the screws with a marker, adding witness marks to the screws, and then going to the range to confirm zero.

Here is the procedure for the Holosun: use a small screwdriver to open the battery tray, replace battery, close and secure battery tray. Done. Which one is better?

Leupold’s red dots have generally received poor reviews. I have a Deltapoint Pro and, frankly, it sucks. It wasn’t reliable, the brightness adjustment has only one switch, not up and down, so you have to go through all the settings.

I suspect that most of the red dots from other manufacturers (excluding Aimpoint and Trijicon) are also made in China.

 

[M1911]

How many holosun failures have you seen?

Zero. My Leopold Deltapoint has failed on me.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

I disagree. I run both Trijicons and Holosun’s on concealed carry guns. I didn’t buy the Holosun for its price. I bought the 507k for its features — correct size and footprint for my 43x, ease of battery replacement.

Right now, I’m looking for a Holosun EPS carry because I want to try a closed emitter and I need one for a gun with a thinner slide — an RMR is too wide for this gun. I’m not buying based on price. Heck, I’ve got an extra SRO in my safe awaiting a gun to get a slide cut.

You are making a mistake if you think all Holosun buyers are primarily budget driven.

The EPS I handled was one of the nicer micro dots I’ve seen at any price. Can’t and won’t speak to build or reliability, but others seem to be good based on real use reviews.

The Chinese BS is just virtue signaling. It happens to be virtue signaling I fundamentally agree with but it’s also disingenuous by nature. Bottom line there is nobody here that doesnt own shit made in China, so attempting to put others down because you simply own “less” Chinese shit is Internet forum shtick and nothing more. Attempting to debate with a routine or intent persona is futile as the very basis of the argument is subjective and a moving goalpost.

If Trijicon and Leupold want to earn my money, they better bring more to the table, period. My pair of MROs are inferior to many at their price point.

My Eotech, well… Say no more

Sold my Leupolds as Vortex (at the time) had higher quality for less

My Schmidt & Bender SBII laughs in an evil German accent at all my other dots and optics.

A Holosun is a great place to start if you have never run a dot before. Buy a 407 and a case of 9mm for less than you would have spent on a Trijicon to see if you like it and then go from there.

Unless you buy Russia manufactured 9mm, then you are the devil

 

[Supermoto]

Zero. My Leopold Deltapoint has failed on me.

Me either
Seen a bunch of eotechs failure.
Had a Aimpoint failure
Bunch of C-more crap out.
Vortex, burris, all have had issues

Let's be honest here, Trijicon is just as connected to gov as holosun. But if the gov tit dried up, bye bye Trijicon, they have nothing left to fall back on. The larpers will just buy what ever the gov tells them is best.

 

[mav]

How many holosun failures have you seen?

None, since I don't buy optics from China. Do a google search for Holosun failures. There are plenty. Here's one from 2015, so pretty old, but the internet doesn't forget:

Unsuitable at Any Range: A Holosun Review -

Lets get this out of the way: This is a negative review of Holosun. After more than a year of use I am unimpressed with the optic.

www.thefirearmblog.com

Here's another from 2020:

General Holosun pistol optic thread

While we have had a variety of threads on aspects of Holosun pistol optics, I dont believe we have a general Holosun thread, so I thought we should start one given their increasing popularity. Historically, my sense is nearly 20 percent of Holosun optics fail out of the box or in the first...

pistol-forum.com

"Historically, my sense is nearly 20 percent of Holosun optics fail out of the box or in the first few days of use, but if they get by that, they hold up reasonably well. Recently, I bought three 507 V2 units, and while two worked fine out of the box, the third had a problem with the “+” button that controls intensity. Need to send it back. Also, last week a one year old original 507 failed while I was dry firing it. Dot went intermittent, even though the battery tested at 90 percent good."

Anyway, this seems like the debate is becoming a ".45ACP vs. 9mm" type of debate and folks are set in their ways. I won't buy Chinese crap and I won't help fund or develop Chinese military capability given we'll likely be on the receiving end in the next decade. It isn't virtue signaling. It isn't "anti-capitalist". It is Nationalistic and self-interested given I have two kids 18 and 16 who are both considering military service I'll be damned if I do anything to support that Communist regime.

 

[mav]

Me either
Seen a bunch of eotechs failure.
Had a Aimpoint failure
Bunch of C-more crap out.
Vortex, burris, all have had issues

Let's be honest here, Trijicon is just as connected to gov as holosun. But if the gov tit dried up, bye bye Trijicon, they have nothing left to fall back on. The larpers will just buy what ever the gov tells them is best.

Yeah, dude. While you'll just go buy cheap Chinese knockoff crap. There are a number of words I could use to describe that, but we've already been warned about "personal attacks"...

And this discussion was never about government contracts or the Military Industrial complex, but thanks for trying to mix it up. Trijicon is a better company than Holosun because they are American, they are Christian, and because they understand that when their products fail, it could cost lives. I'll give them my money all day, every day over a Communist regime.

I'll add, the only failure I have had was on a 10 year old Eotech where the connectors finally gave out. I'll take a 10 year product life when that product was getting beat to crap. Oh, and the $500 I spent, that works out to $50/year for you skinflints. My Aimpoints have been rock solid. My Trijicon's have been rock solid. My latest Eotech has been rock solid. RMR's, Red dots, Holos. Hell, even my Elcan has been good to go. So if we're talking about anecdotal experience, my experience is that the brands I run are solid. And none are made in China...

 

[Supermoto]

Holosun isn't a cheap knockoff. They have surpassed trijicon in features, quality and price. Trijicon will soon have to add features to be competitive. Only reason they are in business is the government. They are FSA. Doing nothing but living off government money.

 

[Dench]

Holosun isn't a cheap knockoff. They have surpassed trijicon in features, quality and price. Trijicon will soon have to add features to be competitive. Only reason they are in business is the government. They are FSA. Doing nothing but living off government money.

Holosuns are just fine. Although I do think it's crazy to give the CCP the plans and the means to make these items when they would never be able to cook them up on their own, will for sure steal the IP and then pose a real risk to use these optics against the west one way or another. Luckily they usually screw up stuff that they steal (like all those crap knock off tires they tried to copy, failed, and then sent off to Russia to screw them over). However, it's not a stretch to think that eventually they will get their act together and use this stuff against us directly with it actually working as intended.

We are reminded regularly that China seems to have a lot of interest in invading Taiwan, that for some reason we have to defend. So why give them tools to use against us if we get dragged into the millionth war in my life? All of it seems silly to me.

 

[Broc Tuah]

I just want to add, and this is not meant to attack anyone, every Steel Challenge match I show up to, I see at least 3 or 4 Holosun (in my squad - most matches have 5 to 7 squads), and I never hear anyone complain about their sight.

In fact, they are usually excited to talk about it and show it to people.

The last march before winter a guy showed me his Holosun with a green dot on his AR and it looked great. Easy acquisition the first time and the green was very bright.

I had doubts about their solar charging, but several people here have posted how that is not an issue for them.

So, there is that. I will be buying my first Holosun this year.

I have a Vortex, 2 C-more and an Ultradot. I am happy with the C-more, one of them handles the recoil of a 460 just fine, the Ultradot is doing great with the 45/70, the Vortex with an AK and the other C-more with a .22.

But none of them have the battery life or options I want for the use the Holosun will get.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

Holosuns are just fine. Although I do think it's crazy to give the CCP the plans and the means to make these items when they would never be able to cook them up on their own, will for sure steal the IP and then pose a real risk to use these optics against the west one way or another. Luckily they usually screw up stuff that they steal (like all those crap knock off tires they tried to copy, failed, and then sent off to Russia to screw them over). However, it's not a stretch to think that eventually they will get their act together and use this stuff against us directly with it actually working as intended.

We are reminded regularly that China seems to have a lot of interest in invading Taiwan, that for some reason we have to defend. So why give them tools to use against us if we get dragged into the millionth war in my life? All of it seems silly to me.

Its weird to me that people think there is something difficult in a red dot? Its an emitter, a battery, and glass. There is nothing proprietary they have stolen.. I mean, they do steal everything from jet planes to nuke reactors I would guess but our .gov helps with a lot in that.

Also, the idea that China cant manufacture to a high level is decades old. that is said not in support of buying Chinese shit, it is just stated because its not factual.

 

[paul73]

Those look like they add 120 MOA or more.

that`s the innovation part.

 

[paul73]

I suspect that most of the red dots from other manufacturers (excluding Aimpoint and Trijicon) are also made in China.

i do not believe for a second that either of those 2 manufactures emitters and actual glass parts domestically in states. the final assembly may be done here, but, all the rest is a same damn chinesium as everybody else uses. because if just has to be. no one makes nothing here no more. no one.
just priced exactly 2x higher.