RMR, optic, Red Dot for a Glock?

[Dench]

I don't think the gov cares about that.
We leave military equipment everywhere that is then used against us.

I'm not necessarily talking about our government. However, our government has insane ties to the CCP. Specifically the house and senate and how it's tolerated (Just talking about the publically known stuff, not tin foil) is really crazy.

Its weird to me that people think there is something difficult in a red dot? Its an emitter, a battery, and glass. There is nothing proprietary they have stolen.. I mean, they do steal everything from jet planes to nuke reactors I would guess but our .gov helps with a lot in that.

Also, the idea that China cant manufacture to a high level is decades old. that is said not in support of buying Chinese shit, it is just stated because its not factual.

China has shown that it can make most of what the West shows it to make. China has a LOT of problems reverse engineering things without Western help.

Here's a recent example: After years of research, China has finally figured out how to make ballpoint pens

Clearly they had access to ball point pens to attempt to reverse engineer forever. Meanwhile the West was making them for a long, long time. Despite the West being able to make them for decades to a century, it wasnt until 2017 that they cracked the code on that one.

Theres a lot of stories like this. From watches to pens to whatever. Sure, they can do it when someone shows up to handhold their engineer team, but they usually can't do it solo.

I personally would not consider making a quality red dot easy. It has to withstand extreme forces, hold zero, be robust, etc. That's not easy. It is easy to make something that will fall apart/break/fail/lose zero, though. We're giving these people endless tools to destroy us while they directly attack the West, buy our leaders, etc. I'm starting to think the US will never snap out of it, especially after the literal zero consequence COVID-19 event. That's a true objective disgrace.

 

[Supermoto]

Holosuns are just fine. Although I do think it's crazy to give the CCP the plans and the means to make these items when they would never be able to cook them up on their own, will for sure steal the IP and then pose a real risk to use these optics against the west one way or another. Luckily they usually screw up stuff that they steal

Chinese red dot predate RMRs by many years. Red dots started in the 70s.

Let's not forget that trijicon started as a company the imported products from South Africa. Their innovation always come from someone else

 

[paul73]

Here's a recent example: After years of research, China has finally figured out how to make ballpoint pens

dude, they had stolen successfully whole data set from cisco to make huawei. they can steal with not much external help. what to do with the stolen stuff was the issue, but, not so more anymore thanks to apple.

there was a good article not so long ago about what apple did there.... there was a huge issue there with the know-how on business organization of supply chains, but, apple realistically has built there a whole industry in china that got now aquired by them, studied and replicated and reused across all other productions - most lately inserted into the DJI to promote its success, etc.

here, found it - it is a good read.
hmm, it refuses to bypass a paywall. so odd. here - found the way.
they concentrate there on the fate of apple, but, the real thing is about WHAT apple execs armed china with, for all your precious iphoneses in your pocketses.

How Apple tied its fortunes to China | Financial Times​

https://www.ft.com › Asia-Pacific › Companies › Apple Inc


Jan 16, 2023 — More than 95 per cent of iPhones, AirPods, Macs and iPads are made in China, where Apple also earns about a fifth of its revenue — $74bn last ...

 

[Dench]

Chinese red dot predate RMRs by many years. Red dots started in the 70s.

Let's not forget that trijicon started as a company the imported products from South Africa. Their innovation always come from someone else

I'm no Trijicon fanboy. I do like the RMR and the SRO, but as stated earlier I think the 4x32 ACOGs are hot garbage and super over rated. Maybe when they came out they were fantastic, I have no clue I wasn't shooting back then. I do remember most times I had to use an ACOG I thought it was a pain in the ass and couldn't understand the hype.

 

[BREWINZ]

I own two Trijicon RMRs and three Holosuns (two 508Ts and one 507K).

The RMRs are definitely brighter in daylight sun. The Holosun optics feel, to me, like they needed one or two adjustments brighter to be perfect. Most of the time, however, they're bright enough. YMMV.

As to durability...

The 508T I have on my 10mm lasted about 6 months before the brightness control buttons fell off the optic. Less than 250 rounds. Returned to Holosun with an RMA. I got a brand new optic in return. Turnaround time was 8 weeks. I have the other 508T on a 9mm SBR. ~500 rounds. No problems to report... yet.

The 507K I have on my P365XL didn't fair much better, unfortunately. The lens literally popped out from the lower portion of the optic after about 500 rounds or so. Returned to Holosun with an RMA. Turnaround time on that one was 7 weeks. They did send a new optic in return.

I've never had any problems with either RMR. I have an RM06 on my P320 and an RM09 as a backup sight on a rifle. The RM06 is "old" and has over 1K rounds on it. The RM09 is new, though. Not enough rounds to really judge durability.

I want to like Holosun, but my personal experiences have made me very wary. 3 is a very small sample size, but when they fail 67% of the time on you, you'll be hesitant, too. I wish Trijicon would innovate more and release updated products, but I can't complain about quality.

 

[Dench]

I own two Trijicon RMRs and three Holosuns (two 508Ts and one 507K).

The RMRs are definitely brighter in daylight sun. The Holosun optics feel, to me, like they needed one or two adjustments brighter to be perfect. Most of the time, however, they're bright enough. YMMV.

As to durability...

The 508T I have on my 10mm lasted about 6 months before the brightness control buttons fell off the optic. Less than 250 rounds. Returned to Holosun with an RMA. I got a brand new optic in return. Turnaround time was 8 weeks. I have the other 508T on a 9mm SBR. ~500 rounds. No problems to report... yet.

The 507K I have on my P365XL didn't fair much better, unfortunately. The lens literally popped out from the lower portion of the optic after about 500 rounds or so. Returned to Holosun with an RMA. Turnaround time on that one was 7 weeks. They did send a new optic in return.

I've never had any problems with either RMR. I have an RM06 on my P320 and an RM09 as a backup sight on a rifle. The RM06 is "old" and has over 1K rounds on it. The RM09 is new, though. Not enough rounds to really judge durability.

I want to like Holosun, but my personal experiences have made me very wary. 3 is a very small sample size, but when they fail 67% of the time on you, you'll be hesitant, too. I wish Trijicon would innovate more and release updated products, but I can't complain about quality.

For context I broke an ACOG in the late 00's 100% my fault and Trijicon had it back quick. Under 2 weeks if I remember correctly. Not sure if that's normal or not but that's my solo experience with sending something back to them that needed a repair. I don't remember if they fixed it or sent me a new one.

 

[eboos]

About 1,500 - 2,000 rounds through my G17 with Holosun SCS. 200ish full power factory loads, remainder 130pf loads. No problem so far. Looking forward to getting a 507 Comp when available.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I'm no Trijicon fanboy. I do like the RMR and the SRO, but as stated earlier I think the 4x32 ACOGs are hot garbage and super over rated. Maybe when they came out they were fantastic, I have no clue I wasn't shooting back then. I do remember most times I had to use an ACOG I thought it was a pain in the ass and couldn't understand the hype.

I know it's a bit of a distraction, but what is it you dislike about the 4x ACOG?

 

[eboos]

I know it's a bit of a distraction, but what is it you dislike about the 4x ACOG?

The 4x magnification of the price tag? IDK, never had one, never used one.

 

[Darkslide]

So you’re a China apologist. Good to know. Feel free to move back to China and enjoy life in Communist hell home with zero freedoms and complete government control.

As to your assertion they are “light years ahead” of us, you are so wrong it isn’t funny and show your ignorance of real manufacturing processes, techniques and technologies. They are a cheap joke.

The US manufacturers the the best military equipment. in the world. What can China produce? Converting a 50yo Soviet era Aircraft carrier? How about Nuclear submarines? Let’s change tracks… Taiwan manufacturers the worlds most advanced chips and is not China, in case you didn’t know. China is a polluted authoritarian joke. And no, I don’t seperate the people from the government/party. The people killed millions to install that government and most go along with everything the party says. They are complicit.

Now please tell us how they are superior manufacturers…

Bro, I never said I liked China. Yes, it’s a polluted totalitarian hell hole, not arguing that. I’m just pointing out that the Chinese people is not the government. If it was a CCP owned company, then I wouldn’t support them, but I’m fine buying from private businesses.

I spent a month in China to take a class, and everything relevant to daily life is better than here. Their subway system, buildings, malls, restaurants, apartments, automated robots, appliances… make Boston look like a backwards ghetto. Still wouldn’t live there, but they are way ahead of us. If you’ve never been there, you can’t make a comparison. The things that are better here is the lack of pollution, more freedom (for now), no social credit system (for now), less censorship, no fear of getting kidnapped by the govt and never seen again, and gun ownership (for now).

As for Chinese manufacturing, my friend suggested an improved design on an air ionizer and the manufacturer sent it to him within a week. Of course, they stole his design and updated all their current ionizers, but that’s besides the point. Their manufacturing is quick and efficient. If you suggest a design improvement to an American company, it’ll be buried on someone’s desk.

 

[Dench]

I know it's a bit of a distraction, but what is it you dislike about the 4x ACOG?

the eye relief on the 4x32 is super annoying. Once you're on it it's fine. But wear a helmet, body armor and a LVB and it's a slog as shouldering is significantly different, less stable, annoying, etc. I actually bought one while I was still in so I could use it to practice with. Again, the problem with that is shouldering it a Harvard is a lot different than shouldering it on an M16A4 in costume at Drum/Devens/Cape/etc.

On the other hand, the less magnified version like the 1.5 TA44 are awesome. Very easy to use.

 

[Mesatchornug]

the eye relief on the 4x32 is super annoying. Once you're on it it's fine. But wear a helmet, body armor and a LVB and it's a slog as shouldering is significantly different, less stable, annoying, etc. I actually bought one while I was still in so I could use it to practice with. Again, the problem with that is shouldering it a Harvard is a lot different than shouldering it on an M16A4 in costume at Drum/Devens/Cape/etc.

On the other hand, the less magnified version like the 1.5 TA44 are awesome. Very easy to use.

makes sense. as an almost complete optics noob, eye-box issues are the biggest turn off for me about glass in general.

 

[Dench]

makes sense. as an almost complete optics noob, eye-box issues are the biggest turn off for me about glass in general.

I'm probably the last person on Earth to ask questions about optics, I'm far from an expert and have never had any formal training on any of them bizarrely enough.

I have been using RMR's on rifles for a while now and I think those are about as simple as it gets to use. RMR's on pistols suffer from the dot being tricky to find unless your punch out is really dialed in. I'm not young anymore so I recently got an SRO to help with that. My wife is using the RMR now I guess it doesnt bother her.

I am really happy with that TA44 mini acog though. I was really hesitant to buy one as I never used one before I bought it but did enough research and reviews etc to be comfortable with trying it. It's been a big hit.

All that said theres plenty of people who can use 4x ACOGs just fine. I'm not one of them though and the eye relief being a colossal pain in the ass is a common complaint.

 

[M1911]

On a rifle, I use a closed red dot like an Aimpoint T1/T2. It makes a lot more sense than an RMR.

 

[mav]

Bro, I never said I liked China. Yes, it’s a polluted totalitarian hell hole, not arguing that. I’m just pointing out that the Chinese people is not the government. If it was a CCP owned company, then I wouldn’t support them, but I’m fine buying from private businesses.

I spent a month in China to take a class, and everything relevant to daily life is better than here. Their subway system, buildings, malls, restaurants, apartments, automated robots, appliances… make Boston look like a backwards ghetto. Still wouldn’t live there, but they are way ahead of us. If you’ve never been there, you can’t make a comparison. The things that are better here is the lack of pollution, more freedom (for now), no social credit system (for now), less censorship, no fear of getting kidnapped by the govt and never seen again, and gun ownership (for now).

As for Chinese manufacturing, my friend suggested an improved design on an air ionizer and the manufacturer sent it to him within a week. Of course, they stole his design and updated all their current ionizers, but that’s besides the point. Their manufacturing is quick and efficient. If you suggest a design improvement to an American company, it’ll be buried on someone’s desk.

My roommate in college has spent the last 25 years living and working in China. I get the low down regularly. I have at different points in my career managed manufacturing ERP systems from Oracle, SAP and Glovia (US, German, and Japanese respectively). I understand quite a bit about manufacturing though that isn't my specialty, software is. As part of that, I have worked in the automotive and lighting industries. I will say it again, there is nothing novel coming out of China in terms of manufacturing. QA is all over the place. Lots of the low-cost, low-value manufacturing has actually moved out of China (textile for instance) to places like Vietnam because costs have risen. It was literally the only thing going for them and they are paying the price because they are polluting their air, land and water so much.

As I posted above, this debate is bordering on religious. No one is going to convince anyone on the internet the benefits of .45 or .40 over 9. I'm not going to convince anyone here that buying China is a bad idea. Maybe Holosun has great products now. Lots of reviews say differently, but you can find ones that are positive as well. I just won't do it, doesn't matter how far behind companies like Trijicon (or Eotech or Aimpoint, or Leupold or Nightforce) get from China, I won't willingly give them money. I could do a quick inventory of "Made in China" in my life and I just don't see it. Are there components? Sure, but if I buy a big ticket item, I buy American (or Euro or Japanese). I recently had to buy some home appliances for my folks. I was looking at GE until I read they were China owned. I went Maytag. US owned, operated and manufactured. I'm not sure where everyone is still "buying China".

 

[SFC13557]

Glock has arrived at the Mill, heading over soon for pickup.
Thanks for all the info, so now I have to decide between buying from American bible thumpers and the evil CCP!

 

[Supermoto]

On a rifle, I use a closed red dot like an Aimpoint T1/T2. It makes a lot more sense than an RMR.

For me it really depends on what distance I am shooting. Anything fast and close, I prefer open dots with a large glass. Distance or accuracy, tubes are fine.

 

[mav]

I'm probably the last person on Earth to ask questions about optics, I'm far from an expert and have never had any formal training on any of them bizarrely enough.

I have been using RMR's on rifles for a while now and I think those are about as simple as it gets to use. RMR's on pistols suffer from the dot being tricky to find unless your punch out is really dialed in. I'm not young anymore so I recently got an SRO to help with that. My wife is using the RMR now I guess it doesnt bother her.

I am really happy with that TA44 mini acog though. I was really hesitant to buy one as I never used one before I bought it but did enough research and reviews etc to be comfortable with trying it. It's been a big hit.

All that said theres plenty of people who can use 4x ACOGs just fine. I'm not one of them though and the eye relief being a colossal pain in the ass is a common complaint.

Eye relief was always an issue with the ACOG's, but lack of moving parts, duel lighting without batteries and a BDC that made shooting "private proof" made for a good combat optic for the average grunt. I haven't looked at the TA44's so I'll have to see what they are all about. I've been more focused on the LPVO's recently because I've been acquiring more rifles.

I may move my RMR to my G19 and pick up an SRO for the G17. Again, old age catching up and more glass is nice at least in a full size handgun. I also wanted to try the SRO on my S&W TRR8.

 

[mav]

Glock has arrived at the Mill, heading over soon for pickup.
Thanks for all the info, so now I have to decide between buying from American bible thumpers and the evil CCP!

I can't hold it against you if you fall for the feminine wildes of the Chinese... we're both B/Co 104th guys.

 

[Darkslide]

My roommate in college has spent the last 25 years living and working in China. I get the low down regularly. I have at different points in my career managed manufacturing ERP systems from Oracle, SAP and Glovia (US, German, and Japanese respectively). I understand quite a bit about manufacturing though that isn't my specialty, software is. As part of that, I have worked in the automotive and lighting industries. I will say it again, there is nothing novel coming out of China in terms of manufacturing. QA is all over the place. Lots of the low-cost, low-value manufacturing has actually moved out of China (textile for instance) to places like Vietnam because costs have risen. It was literally the only thing going for them and they are paying the price because they are polluting their air, land and water so much.

As I posted above, this debate is bordering on religious. No one is going to convince anyone on the internet the benefits of .45 or .40 over 9. I'm not going to convince anyone here that buying China is a bad idea. Maybe Holosun has great products now. Lots of reviews say differently, but you can find ones that are positive as well. I just won't do it, doesn't matter how far behind companies like Trijicon (or Eotech or Aimpoint, or Leupold or Nightforce) get from China, I won't willingly give them money. I could do a quick inventory of "Made in China" in my life and I just don't see it. Are there components? Sure, but if I buy a big ticket item, I buy American (or Euro or Japanese). I recently had to buy some home appliances for my folks. I was looking at GE until I read they were China owned. I went Maytag. US owned, operated and manufactured. I'm not sure where everyone is still "buying China".

I respect that. Though it’s gonna get harder to avoid Made in China stuff if they keep buying up foreign companies.

 

[Dench]

Eye relief was always an issue with the ACOG's, but lack of moving parts, duel lighting without batteries and a BDC that made shooting "private proof" made for a good combat optic for the average grunt. I haven't looked at the TA44's so I'll have to see what they are all about. I've been more focused on the LPVO's recently because I've been acquiring more rifles.

I may move my RMR to my G19 and pick up an SRO for the G17. Again, old age catching up and more glass is nice at least in a full size handgun. I also wanted to try the SRO on my S&W TRR8.

I have the RMR on a G45 MOS and the SRO on my old G34. Seems great so far

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

My roommate in college has spent the last 25 years living and working in China. I get the low down regularly. I have at different points in my career managed manufacturing ERP systems from Oracle, SAP and Glovia (US, German, and Japanese respectively). I understand quite a bit about manufacturing though that isn't my specialty, software is. As part of that, I have worked in the automotive and lighting industries. I will say it again, there is nothing novel coming out of China in terms of manufacturing. QA is all over the place. Lots of the low-cost, low-value manufacturing has actually moved out of China (textile for instance) to places like Vietnam because costs have risen. It was literally the only thing going for them and they are paying the price because they are polluting their air, land and water so much.

As I posted above, this debate is bordering on religious. No one is going to convince anyone on the internet the benefits of .45 or .40 over 9. I'm not going to convince anyone here that buying China is a bad idea. Maybe Holosun has great products now. Lots of reviews say differently, but you can find ones that are positive as well. I just won't do it, doesn't matter how far behind companies like Trijicon (or Eotech or Aimpoint, or Leupold or Nightforce) get from China, I won't willingly give them money. I could do a quick inventory of "Made in China" in my life and I just don't see it. Are there components? Sure, but if I buy a big ticket item, I buy American (or Euro or Japanese). I recently had to buy some home appliances for my folks. I was looking at GE until I read they were China owned. I went Maytag. US owned, operated and manufactured. I'm not sure where everyone is still "buying China".

I think most/all agree we would rather not buy chinese... I haven't argued for that, that's for sure! I also don't think Trijicon, Aimpoint, Leupold, or Nightforce are bad by ANY stretch (screw Eotech, serious F those guys ) Nightforce is likely my next optic actually.

I do think there is value to consider in some of the Chinese brands and the quality doesnt at all seem below the USA produced stuff, although time will tell. I wish and hope that pressure from lower cost importers pushes USA companies to innovate faster.

All that said, I would still advocate for someone experimenting with a red dot to buy a Holosun and a case of ammo for their for their first pistol mounted RDS as I could see it being an accessory that ends up in a box on the reloading bench for some.

 

[NH_Realtor]

I certainly understand the concern about supporting the CCP. I will say, however, that Trijicon has been resting on its laurels and hasn’t innovated in years. The need to remove the RMR once a year to replace the battery is just stupid. I have an RMR on one of my carry guns. It‘s a good red dot. But it sure is a heck of a lot easier to replace the battery in the 507k on one of my other carry guns.

In contrast, Holosun’s innovation can be dizzying — the 509t, the EPS, the SCS, etc.

I hope that Holosun’s advances will finally kick both Trijicon and Aimpoint in the backside hard enough that they both start to innovate again.

This. I’ll pay double what a holosun costs if it’s made in the USA, but Holosun is the only one coming up with new cool shit.

Trijicon can’t even add a side load battery FFS.

 

[SFC13557]

Back from the Mill, all is well. They're not expecting an eviction notice anytime soon.
G17 looks great, internals look new.

 

[pv600]

Holosun SCS.

Who cares about the china stuff. Everyone is typing it on their made in china phone, laptop, or tablet while sitting there in their tightie whites that are also made in China

 

[SFC13557]

I can't hold it against you if you fall for the feminine wildes of the Chinese... we're both B/Co 104th guys.

You are correct!

 

[mav]

Holosun SCS.

Who cares about the china stuff. Everyone is typing it on their made in china phone, laptop, or tablet while sitting there in their tightie whites that are also made in China

Boxer briefs, made in Vietnam. PC with processor and graphics chips made in Taiwan. So, no, not everyone buys stuff made in China... honestly, the level of skin flinting to buy tightie whities made in China is hard core.

 

[Broc Tuah]

 

[paul73]

I’ll pay double what a holosun costs if it’s made in the USA

the actual reality shows that most buy dozens of $6 pintys as soon as they get a chance.

 

[Broc Tuah]

This. I’ll pay double what a holosun costs if it’s made in the USA, but Holosun is the only one coming up with new cool shit.

Trijicon can’t even add a side load battery FFS.

I just need 4 simple things in a red dot:

1. Long lasting. At a minimum 1.5 years in a bright setting. 1.5 years is not absurd, many would consider this sh*t life, but notice I said "bright setting", I don't want a dot that can be on for 5 years in a setting I won't see sh*t if it is bright outside.

2. Change the battery without removing.

3. A dot bigger than 3 MOA. WTF is up with this? - I have a 6 MOA DOT in a C-More RTS2 and it is not great on a bright day, yet most offer 3 MOA only. 12 MOA would be perfect, I recently tried one and it was awesome for plates. Would be perfect for self defense. 12 MOA sounds huge, but it isn't for self defense distances.

4. Some reliability, I don't want to read reviews talking about how the glass fell off.

It can't be that hard. Yet, it seems to be very hard.