The Conference Committee has sent official language out - h.4885

[pastera]

Stating that you can do live fire doesn't clear things up since as far as I know the requirements haven't been published.
So we don't know anything except the trainee needs to fire an unknown number of rounds from an unknown type of gun in an unknown manner.

 

[MickeyD’s]

Did you read it?
If not, go read it and several of the pre-Bruen 2a opinions from the SJC, then come back and support your position.

Tossing out shit like "it got us knives" and "has yet to effect guns" is not helpfull and borders on ignorant childish ranting.

Has it ? Has it been used in a case yet on firearms? The answer is no nothing has happened yet.

unless there’s a magic case that suddenly appeared. Please provide a link to said case

I

 

[JDL]

Stating that you can do live fire doesn't clear things up since as far as I know the requirements haven't been published.
So we don't know anything except the trainee needs to fire an unknown number of rounds from an unknown type of gun in an unknown manner.

This has nothing to do with the new training requirements that have not been developed yet it has to do with the towns and cities that are currently requiring live fire now. For some reason you have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I will have to clearer in my future posts on this subject. If you have questions please contact me.

 

[Picton]

This has nothing to do with the new training requirements that have not been developed yet it has to do with the towns and cities that are currently requiring live fire now. For some reason you have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I will have to clearer in my future posts on this subject. If you have questions please contact me.

Out of curiosity, do you as an instructor have some sort of directory that lists all the towns with live-fire reqs? I've always been curious about how that worked.

I did a live fire as part of my LTC course, and the instructor seemed to suggest it would suit or exceed any town's requirements. It was twenty rounds at about 12 feet. Granted, this was many years ago; I'm curious how it's done now.

 

[Abe Froman]

I did a live fire as part of my LTC course, and the instructor seemed to suggest it would suit or exceed any town's requirements. It was twenty rounds at about 12 feet. Granted, this was many years ago; I'm curious how it's done now.

My non-resident CT LTC live fire was 10 rounds at 5 yards.

 

[MickeyD’s]

So the fact that THOUSANDS of people are now unrestricted because of Bruen is irrelevant?

Wow.

This is par for the course for the NES whining toddler club though.

Never said it was irrelevant , never said it was bad. All I said was the effect here in mass was minuscule and that Bruen didn’t go far enough.

Unfortunately Thousands is not big numbers. Boston for example 1.79% was the number of residents that owned guns ( all guns) that’s what 11k people.

If AWBs get shot down…we’ll see how Massachusetts handles compliance. I expect it to be nuclear levels of retardation

 

[Kurtz]

I was reading about having a renewal application denied, upon denial one must surrender all firearms? Is this even before a current license expires?

 

[Coda]

Has it ? Has it been used in a case yet on firearms? The answer is no nothing has happened yet.

unless there’s a magic case that suddenly appeared. Please provide a link to said case

I

You are new here. So you have no idea how much time this member has spent breaking this crap down so we can at least begin to understand it (because totally understating it is impossible, that was the plan).

Listen to what he has to say and stop challenging him. Be thankful for the effort he puts in. I am not here to white night anybody, just stating the facts as I see them.

 

[pastera]

Has it ? Has it been used in a case yet on firearms? The answer is no nothing has happened yet.

unless there’s a magic case that suddenly appeared. Please provide a link to said case

I

So in other words you didn't read it because you're a knuckle dragging troll?
Prive me wrong.

Yes, I'm being an ass to you simply because that's how you are responding.

 

[pastera]

This has nothing to do with the new training requirements that have not been developed yet it has to do with the towns and cities that are currently requiring live fire now. For some reason you have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I will have to clearer in my future posts on this subject. If you have questions please contact me.

Got it - was thinking you were saying that you could offer a compliant live fire training.
I do believe that new people should get some supervised range time but don't believe it should be mandatory.

Didn't mean to suggest different

 

[JDL]

Out of curiosity, do you, as an instructor, have some sort of directory that lists all the towns with live-fire reqs? I've always been curious about how that worked.

I did a live fire as part of my LTC course, and the instructor seemed to suggest it would suit or exceed any town's requirements. It was twenty rounds at about 12 feet. Granted, this was many years ago; I'm curious how it's done now.

I currently do not have a database with that information. What i do is when some one call about scheduling a class, i ask what town or city they live in and taylor the class to their needs. I only do small classes and because I live in Western MA. I don't see any students from the eastern part of the state. If you do a class such as NRA Basic Pistol it would most likely fulfill any city or town requirements. Although most will accept the 4hr. NRA Home Firearms Saftey. Class.

 

[Picton]

I currently do not have a database with that information. What i do is when some one call about scheduling a class, i ask what town or city they live in and taylor the class to their needs. I only do small classes and because I live in Western MA. I don't see any students from the eastern part of the state. If you do a class such as NRA Basic Pistol it would most likely fulfill any city or town requirements. Although most will accept the 4hr. NRA Home Firearms Saftey. Class.

Awesome. Thanks. So... once they tell you the town, you check that PD's site to find out?

That's customer service!

 

[pastera]

Never said it was irrelevant , never said it was bad. All I said was the effect here in mass was minuscule and that Bruen didn’t go far enough.

Unfortunately Thousands is not big numbers. Boston for example 1.79% was the number of residents that owned guns ( all guns) that’s what 11k people.

If AWBs get shot down…we’ll see how Massachusetts handles compliance. I expect it to be nuclear levels of retardation

There are multiple cases in Mass where out of staters were charged with unlicensed carry and had their charges dropped under Bruen
And Canjura supports that through its proscribed review process.
So since SJC jurisprudence is fully binding on Mass courts, Canjura already has applicability.
The reason we don't see it easily is that district court outcomes are not all that easy to access - until cases start hitting appeals and we are way too early for that

I was reading about having a renewal application denied, upon denial one must surrender all firearms? Is this even before a current license expires?

On a strict reading yes, they will take all firearms on denial.
Since all licenses are now shall issue, a denial is essentially saying you are a federally prohibited person.

 

[JDL]

Awesome. Thanks. So... once they tell you the town, you check that PD's site to find out?

That's customer service!

Yes and I down load copy of the towns directions and a copy of the application for each student and revew at the end of the class.

 

[MickeyD’s]

So in other words you didn't read it because you're a knuckle dragging troll?
Prive me wrong.

Yes, I'm being an ass to you simply because that's how you are responding.

Simply answer my question has conjura been cited in any court case?

we all got excited over heller, over McDonald, Caetano, and now Bruen …yet here we are.

Until it bears fruit

 

[powerman]

There are multiple cases in Mass where out of staters were charged with unlicensed carry and had their charges dropped under Bruen
And Canjura supports that through its proscribed review process.
So since SJC jurisprudence is fully binding on Mass courts, Canjura already has applicability.
The reason we don't see it easily is that district court outcomes are not all that easy to access - until cases start hitting appeals and we are way too early for that

On a strict reading yes, they will take all firearms on denial.
Since all licenses are now shall issue, a denial is essentially saying you are a federally prohibited person.

I think the new law actually says registered firearms, so you should know what's what I guess and plan accordingly. Needs to be confirmed

 

[wcorey]

Simply answer my question has conjura been cited in any court case?

we all got excited over heller, over McDonald, Caetano, and now Bruen …yet here we are.

Until it bears fruit

How would you know it hasn't borne fruit?
Seems to me like you're looking at it ass-backwards, because of Canjura there's a good chance applicable cases will never go to trial as charges won't be filed knowing they'll likely lose and set a precedent they don't want to set.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Out of curiosity, do you as an instructor have some sort of directory that lists all the towns with live-fire reqs? I've always been curious about how that worked.

I did a live fire as part of my LTC course, and the instructor seemed to suggest it would suit or exceed any town's requirements. It was twenty rounds at about 12 feet. Granted, this was many years ago; I'm curious how it's done now.

I have always taught Home Firearm Safety and added live fire to every class. They shoot 50 rds, .22LR (revolver, pistol, and rifle), 9mm, .223 (AR-15), and 7.62x39 (AK-47). So I didn't have to worry about whether or not a town required live fire, it was done and noted on the MSP Cert that I gave each student.

 

[Picton]

How would you know it hasn't borne fruit?
Seems to me like you're looking at it ass-backwards, because of Canjura there's a good chance applicable cases will never go to trial as charges won't be filed knowing they'll likely lose and set a precedent they don't want to set.

A wise poster upthread reminded me that there's scant point replying to this fellow. His mind is made up: he is married to his bias, and will think of a reply that supports it.

Not that I can blame him. I am biased, too, but I have much better reason to be.

 

[MickeyD’s]

A wise poster upthread reminded me that there's scant point replying to this fellow. His mind is made up: he is married to his bias, and will think of a reply that supports it.

Not that I can blame him. I am biased, too, but I have much better reason to be.

Not biased

Just a blend of cynicism and pessimism. Show me results I’ll change my tune. Conjura is too new to take a victory lap esp in this state. Bruen and Heller are toilet paper to lower courts.

 

[Picton]

Not biased

Just a blend of cynicism and pessimism. Show me results I’ll change my tune. Conjura is too new to take a victory lap esp in this state. Bruen and Heller are toilet paper to lower courts.

I've tried to engage you on this about four times. You're determined not to understand me, and I've seen that tendency in your responses to others as well.

Good luck in your endeavors and have a nice evening.

 

[wcorey]

Not biased

Just a blend of cynicism and pessimism. Show me results I’ll change my tune. Conjura is too new to take a victory lap esp in this state. Bruen and Heller are toilet paper to lower courts.

Bruen and Heller are what spawned Canjura, still too early to tell what will come of that.
Little by little it's filtering down to the lower courts, the point being that things seem to be finally moving in our direction and though slow it's better than losing ground.
You should start a conversation with Coyote33, you'd be a great pair, both stubborn impatient types who just don't seem to get how our courts work or how long these things take.

 

[MickeyD’s]

Bruen and Heller are what spawned Canjura, still too early to tell what will come of that.
Little by little it's filtering down to the lower courts, the point being that things seem to be finally moving in our direction and though slow it's better than losing ground.
You should start a conversation with Coyote33, you'd be a great pair, both stubborn impatient types who just don't seem to get how our courts work or how long these things take.

So far im the only one who’s been advocating for tempering the expectations. Conjura is too new so let’s stop the victory lap, said that multiple times now. It needs to show some results , so far I’ve seen no case cite conjura. Unless I’m wrong and i know some would love to show me.

Lower courts wipe their ass with heller and Bruen…if they didn’t we wouldn’t have snopes waiting conference Friday the Lower courts would have fallen in line.

 

[wcorey]

So far im the only one who’s been advocating for tempering the expectations. Conjura is too new so let’s stop the victory lap, said that multiple times now. It needs to show some results , so far I’ve seen no case cite conjura. Unless I’m wrong and i know some would love to show me.

Lower courts wipe their ass with heller and Bruen…if they didn’t we wouldn’t have snopes waiting conference Friday the Lower courts would have fallen in line.

Again, to me you're still looking at it from the wrong perspective.
Show me where Ma has been successfully prosecuting cases based on the garbage enacted with Chapter 135 that contradicts Bruen/Heller.
Sure they can still use it for intimidation but will be more and more hesitant to test it in court.

For most of my life all I've seen is us treading water and going under against a steady tide, now I see the tide is finally slowing/turning and I'll do a happy dance/victory lap for every little win we get.

 

[Coyote33]

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/DDaBQzjvKe8/

 

[pastera]

I think the new law actually says registered firearms, so you should know what's what I guess and plan accordingly. Needs to be confirmed

They are taking everything they find.
And if there is something in their registry that isn't there, you likely will br required to make it appear and fast.

Anything they find that's not registered, once its active, will be a charge.

 

[pastera]

Bruen and Heller are what spawned Canjura, still too early to tell what will come of that.
Little by little it's filtering down to the lower courts, the point being that things seem to be finally moving in our direction and though slow it's better than losing ground.
You should start a conversation with Coyote33, you'd be a great pair, both stubborn impatient types who just don't seem to get how our courts work or how long these things take.

He hasn't read Canjura or he would have a different understanding of Heller, Bruen and, in this state, Caetano.

But that assumes the ridiculous assumption that he has read any of those opinions in the first place.

 

[pastera]

So far im the only one who’s been advocating for tempering the expectations. Conjura is too new so let’s stop the victory lap, said that multiple times now. It needs to show some results , so far I’ve seen no case cite conjura. Unless I’m wrong and i know some would love to show me.

Lower courts wipe their ass with heller and Bruen…if they didn’t we wouldn’t have snopes waiting conference Friday the Lower courts would have fallen in line.

So where have you gone looking for all of these cases that fail to cite Canjura?

 

[APFSDS]

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/DDaBQzjvKe8/

I can't find any info on this on the GOAL website or through a web search. Any more info on what that means?

They are taking everything they find.
And if there is something in their registry that isn't there, you likely will br required to make it appear and fast.

Anything they find that's not registered, once its active, will be a charge.

The new guidance says if it's in the EFA-10 database it will be registered to you automatically. How is this going to work in practice with guns that have been sold out of state etc? There is no requirement to record this in any way. I guess more add-on charges to screw you with, or justification for an arrest and keeping you locked up.

ETA: found it

 

[JDL]

⁸

I have always taught Home Firearm Safety and added live fire to every class. They shoot 50 rds, .22LR (revolver, pistol, and rifle), 9mm, .223 (AR-15), and 7.62x39 (AK-47). So I didn't have to worry about whether or not a town required live fire, it was done and noted on the MSP Cert that I gave each student.

My non-resident CT LTC live fire was 10 rounds at 5 yards.

Yes that is the minimum to quilify level 2 in NRA Basic Pistol. I never stop there with my students I get them all qualified NRA level 4 even when I am doing a class for a CT LTC. That would be 10 round in the NRA prescribed targets at 10ft, 15ft, 20ft and then 45ft. The class you took short changed you and only qualified you NRA level 2 they really should have qualified you NRA level 4.