The Conference Committee has sent official language out - h.4885

Rob Boudrie said:
Not scare tactics - one attorney's interpretation of the law.

Like I said, everyone is guessing as to interpretation, however, the chances attorney Guida is technically correct are excellent. That does not mean the courts will see it that way.



You mean like how the court reasonably interpreted that the 60 day exemption for new residents did not apply to high capacity firearms and magazines, because it did not explicitly list a subclass of firearm and magazine that did not exist (in law) when the exemption was put into place?
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Not saying I agree just stating the reality. We can interpret this how ever we want so we feel warm and fuzzy inside. Bottom line is if they decide to go after you, you are fu*ked
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Not scare tactics - one attorney's interpretation of the law.

Like I said, everyone is guessing as to interpretation, however, the chances attorney Guida is technically correct are excellent. That does not mean the courts will see it that way.



You mean like how the court reasonably interpreted that the 60 day exemption for new residents did not apply to high capacity firearms and magazines, because it did not explicitly list a subclass of firearm and magazine that did not exist (in law) when the exemption was put into place?
Click to expand...
Not remotely on Guida. He has been invested in the Healey edict since the beginning and his current logic is completely flawed from a technical perspective. I will not name other names, but lawyers I respect far more than him with far better pedigrees and results in court are aligned with my view on this. Guida suffers from severe confirmation bias on this topic. He also has major gaps in his understanding of MA law that came out the very first time I engaged with him in conversation.
 
BroncoAZ said:
I was planning on purchasing a newspaper on 8/1 and taking photographs with the newspaper and my LTC-A and the serial number of the needing to prove grandfathered items in the picture to prove possession on 8/1/2024. I moved in from out of state in 2020 and wasn’t required to register anything brought in when I initially moved, so unless I go enter them in the current portal I have no record of ownership in MA at a specific time. Good idea, bad idea?
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Can the date and time signature in the photos be altered?
 
disclaimer: Recent LTC, didn't prepare, did write to reps, not panic buying, I got whatever I got.
In the 'careful what you wish for' category, I had a dark thought this morning. What happens if 4885 gets overturned? Will it be piecemeal or in toto? Where does that leave all the panic buyers and their new, now grandfatherless, firearms? Are they now all owners of once again previously proscribed items? [frown]
 
Coyote33 said:
Why do they have 2 dates, anyhow? Couldn't they just come up with one new date or something? I guess creating confusion is part (or all/most) of their game.
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Why?

Multiple authors - at least one was ban everything no grandfathering and another was more pragmatic about being able to survive it's trip to the Supreme Court.
 
BroncoAZ said:
was planning on purchasing a newspaper on 8/1 and taking photographs with the newspaper and my LTC-A and the serial number of the needing to prove grandfathered items in the picture to prove possession on 8/1/2024.
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Say that I purchase a newspaper with the date of 7/1.

It's 7/28 now, will a photo featuring that newspaper be evidence that I owned something on 7/1?

How about some photos, print them out, get them notarized. This will have a witness date, at least.
 
vicorjh said:
Say that I purchase a newspaper with the date of 7/1.

It's 7/28 now, will a photo featuring that newspaper be evidence that I owned something on 7/1?
Click to expand...

So basically he should film himself bringing all of his guns into a convenience store that sells newspapers on the current day so he can prove that the newspapers are from the actually day that they say they’re printed on.
 
Dr. Claw said:
Someone actually asked this on a Reddit MAGuns post and the person who responded said that in their interpretation long guns could still be purchased out of state while the roster is updated, but not sure how that works if what you buy after 8/1 isn't added to the roster and if out of state sellers will still be willing to sell given we are in this period of disarray.
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Roster is what in-state dealers can transfer to you, not what you can own
 
[
CrackPot said:
Not remotely on Guida. He has been invested in the Healey edict since the beginning and his current logic is completely flawed from a technical perspective. I will not name other names, but lawyers I respect far more than him with far better pedigrees and results in court are aligned with my view on this. Guida suffers from severe confirmation bias on this topic. He also has major gaps in his understanding of MA law that came out the very first time I engaged with him in conversation.
Click to expand...

But… but, he’s the self proclaimed “leading expert on Massachusetts firearms laws and regulations.”

Not just ‘a’ leading expert, but ”the” leading expert, according to the words on his website.
 
Once an AR lower is purchased before 8/1 - can the LTC holder then go on to sell it in the future by FTF?

The AR lower was legally possessed before 8/1, right?

If so, how long can such FTF sales go on for?

If this can be done, a person who did not make their AR purchase before 8/1 now has a legal way to obtain a AR lower after 8/1.
 
Spooonnss said:
Still unsure of an answer here. I got a ar made ma compliant, Pinned stock and welded muzzle, a few months ago. Since it was a complete rifle and not a lower, it should still be lawful to posses prior to 8/1?
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Yes - as long as you have an LTC, you can lawfully possess a compliant AR.
 
Reptile said:
Once an AR lower is purchased before 8/1 - can the LTC holder then go on to sell it in the future by FTF?

The AR lower was legally possessed before 8/1, right?

If so, how long can such FTF sales go on for?

If this can be done, a person who did not make their AR purchase before 8/1 now has a legal way to obtain a AR lower after 8/1.
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In perpetuity or until the next issue of tyranny gets released.

FTF is good to go for grandfathered ASW’s.
Prices might get funky, as inventory will be limited to what’s already in state.
 
Jenska22 said:
disclaimer: Recent LTC, didn't prepare, did write to reps, not panic buying, I got whatever I got.
In the 'careful what you wish for' category, I had a dark thought this morning. What happens if 4885 gets overturned?
Click to expand...
Those sections go away
Jenska22 said:
Will it be piecemeal or in toto?
Click to expand...
It will be in sections - that's just how the court operates
Jenska22 said:
Where does that leave all the panic buyers and their new, now grandfatherless, firearms? Are they now all owners of once again previously proscribed items? [frown]
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The new law replaces the previous law.
If the law gets shot down, then there simply isn't anything there except freedom.
Sometimes a court will stay it's opinion to allow a state to enact a new, compliant law.

This shit show - there is no constitutional cure for the bans so they will go away
The training requirements - likely to stay partially (safety and handling)
The red flag stuff - this is way to new to know exactly where Scotus will land. It's obviously well past the line now but exactly where that line lands, we don't know.
 
CrackPot said:
Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.
Click to expand...

I had a stroke reading this, then the paramedic picked up my phone and read it and had a violent psychotic episode.
 
CrackPot said:
Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.
Click to expand...
Thanks for taking your time and typing this out, much appreciated.
 
Reptile said:
Once an AR lower is purchased before 8/1 - can the LTC holder then go on to sell it in the future by FTF?

The AR lower was legally possessed before 8/1, right?

If so, how long can such FTF sales go on for?

If this can be done, a person who did not make their AR purchase before 8/1 now has a legal way to obtain a AR lower after 8/1.
Click to expand...
If so, your net worth will be in the millions
 
Whutmeworry said:
Great summary. Keep in mind also (unless I’m mistaken) that they can’t simply add rifles and shotguns to a new roster. All manufacturers will also be subject to the same “testing” standards (drop test, accuracy test, etc.) before they can even be considered by EOPSS to be included on the roster.
Click to expand...
I think people forget that the AG office can and will do what they want. I wouldn’t be surprised if they issued a notice saying bolt action and shotguns ( or some subset) are exempt from the roster or something to that effect.
 
According to the law, they've effectively stopped all new gun licenses until such time as the State Police Stand up all the new training requirements. In actuality, the law states that unless your license has been issued as of 8/1 (or renewals) you'll be subjected to the new training requirements. My son submitted his application about 3 weeks ago but it has yet to be issued by the state. According to the law, he is now subject to the new requirements. Does that mean they intend to reject all in-flight licenses and have them start over? Apologies if this has been covered already - I've been trying to keep up
 
Duxprep said:
According to the law, they've effectively stopped all new gun licenses until such time as the State Police Stand up all the new training requirements. In actuality, the law states that unless your license has been issued as of 8/1 (or renewals) you'll be subjected to the new training requirements. My son submitted his application about 3 weeks ago but it has yet to be issued by the state. According to the law, he is now subject to the new requirements. Does that mean they intend to reject all in-flight licenses and have them start over? Apologies if this has been covered already - I've been trying to keep up
Click to expand...

No one really knows at this point, the best we can do is educated guesses.

I would guess that in-flight licenses may go through because of the 90 day enactment of the bill (10/22 I think). But again, that is one dude's guess, I wouldn't waste too much brain power trying to figure it out until you get an answer in the form of a license or denial.

Honestly, denying or "pausing" all applications until this is rolled out while short term would suck, would arguably be more favorable in court as another draconian overreach by the state.
 
Serious question here, is this law a ban on all semi-auto rifles going forward, or is it possible that some featureless rifles will pass the feature tests and eventually be added to the roster? I have followed these threads pretty closely, and I still don't understand the answer to this question.

Just as an example of a featureless rifle, lets talk about the Ruger PC Carbine State Compliant model. This is a pretty traditional looking rifle without a pistol grip or threaded barrel. It does not have a barrel shroud, but it does have a fore-end that is shaped like a traditional hunting rifle.

My understanding is that a "barrel shroud or foregrip" is now defined as a feature. If a "foregrip" includes the fore-end included on all traditional rifles, then the law would be an outright ban on semi-auto rifles. If no one knows at this time what a foregrip means, then that would be a fair answer.

Also, there are other models of the Ruger PC Carbine which do have lots of features, and are considered assault weapons. Does that matter in this conversation?

On a related point, if featureless rifles are permitted, could they be brought into Mass between 8/1 and 10/23, sold by dealer, and then remain legal thereafter?

And clarification about rimfire semi-auto rifles would be helpful too.

I will admit that I have not read the legislation to form my own viewpoint on these questions, but I don't think any reasonable amount of effort would actually lead me to correct answers.

Thank you to everyone who has read through this mess and helped us all to understand it.
 

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