The Conference Committee has sent official language out - h.4885

[ddeck]

No one really knows at this point, the best we can do is educated guesses.

I would guess that in-flight licenses may go through because of the 90 day enactment of the bill (10/22 I think). But again, that is one dude's guess, I wouldn't waste too much brain power trying to figure it out until you get an answer in the form of a license or denial.

Honestly, denying or "pausing" all applications until this is rolled out while short term would suck, would arguably be more favorable in court as another draconian overreach by the state.

My opinion on this is that some licensing authorities will not issue new licenses (cities/towns that were looking for an excuse to not issue them) whereas other ones will submit it. Of course, the state level board that prints the licenses may have a completely different directive.

As stated, it's all just educated guesses. I know one person who has been waiting for 50 days for his first interview when all this dropped. So, I've been asking him what has happened and still nothing.

 

[Atlantis]

Serious question here, is this law a ban on all semi-auto rifles going forward, or is it possible that some featureless rifles will pass the feature tests and eventually be added to the roster? I have followed these threads pretty closely, and I still don't understand the answer to this question.

Just as an example of a featureless rifle, lets talk about the Ruger PC Carbine State Compliant model. This is a pretty traditional looking rifle without a pistol grip or threaded barrel. It does not have a barrel shroud, but it does have a fore-end that is shaped like a traditional hunting rifle.

My understanding is that a "barrel shroud or foregrip" is now defined as a feature. If a "foregrip" includes the fore-end included on all traditional rifles, then the law would be an outright ban on semi-auto rifles. If no one knows at this time what a foregrip means, then that would be a fair answer.

Also, there are other models of the Ruger PC Carbine which do have lots of features, and are considered assault weapons. Does that matter in this conversation?

On a related point, if featureless rifles are permitted, could they be brought into Mass between 8/1 and 10/23, sold by dealer, and then remain legal thereafter?

And clarification about rimfire semi-auto rifles would be helpful too.

I will admit that I have not read the legislation to form my own viewpoint on these questions, but I don't think any reasonable amount of effort would actually lead me to correct answers.

Thank you to everyone who has read through this mess and helped us all to understand it.

ASW is for center fire detachable mag, so rimfire can’t be ASW. An exception/issue might be a .22lr AR if the receiver is a standard AR lower.

Aside from that yes, foregrip is now a shroud. So effectively a semi auto center fire mag fed ban.

 

[240Geezer]

Federal law and DOT regulations regarding common carriers may, emphasis may, provide some protection from state law. This is why states, for example, are not required to have explicit exceptions for common carriers in their law regarding regulated products (Controlled substances, firearms,, etc.).


May a dealer legally transfer a stripped frame for a handgun that is on the roster once the new law is passes?

Nobody really knows for sure, and anyone who claims to is just guessing.

I as a NH resident am able to have shipped to a dealer anything.
Common carriers must pass thru Mass to get here.
They will ship through. There will be no avoiding that.

 

[ackwaves]

Any thoughts on whether this exempts .22lr rifles on folding stocks, etc? Something like the M&P 15 .22lr or HK SP5 .22lr.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I as a NH resident am able to have shipped to a dealer anything.
Common carriers must pass thru Mass to get here.
They will ship through. There will be no avoiding that.

That would be my expectation as well, which is consistent with my expectation that either federal regulations will trump the new MA law, or it will be ignored. Basically, the same as MA dealers accepting ammo shipments from out of state distributors who do not mave a MA license to sell ammunition (there is no exemption for that in the current law).

Many of these interpretations of the finer points should start with "My best guess is....".

 

[silversquirrel]

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.

 

[lord_bacon]

My opinion on this is that some licensing authorities will not issue new licenses (cities/towns that were looking for an excuse to not issue them) whereas other ones will submit it. Of course, the state level board that prints the licenses may have a completely different directive.

As stated, it's all just educated guesses. I know one person who has been waiting for 50 days for his first interview when all this dropped. So, I've been asking him what has happened and still nothing.

Agreed 100% - most likely green towns will be fine (those that already pretty much followed the "shall issue" vs. "may issue" mentality). Those towns (mostly cities) that wouldn't issue, or made hurdles for applicants, and are all butthurt about bruen will likely use this as an excuse to deny, deny, deny.

Of course the standard caveats here apply... IANAL, "my best guess is..." etc...

 

[The27Guru]

Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.

Thank you!

 

[Dr. Claw]

According to the law, they've effectively stopped all new gun licenses until such time as the State Police Stand up all the new training requirements. In actuality, the law states that unless your license has been issued as of 8/1 (or renewals) you'll be subjected to the new training requirements. My son submitted his application about 3 weeks ago but it has yet to be issued by the state. According to the law, he is now subject to the new requirements. Does that mean they intend to reject all in-flight licenses and have them start over? Apologies if this has been covered already - I've been trying to keep up

so does this mean if I have to renew I have to comply with the new requirements or does my years of being a license holder address any changes?

 

[jek]

They won't get it.

 

[nm1]

ASW is for center fire detachable mag, so rimfire can’t be ASW. An exception/issue might be a .22lr AR if the receiver is a standard AR lower.

Aside from that yes, foregrip is now a shroud. So effectively a semi auto center fire mag fed ban.

Unless it’s a pre healey lower (as defined in the new law/which is slightly different from the notice) which is exempt (the only place where it actually matters) - so you can technically have an AR based 22 that’s not an ASW.

 

[MAJoe]

According to the law, they've effectively stopped all new gun licenses until such time as the State Police Stand up all the new training requirements. In actuality, the law states that unless your license has been issued as of 8/1 (or renewals) you'll be subjected to the new training requirements. My son submitted his application about 3 weeks ago but it has yet to be issued by the state. According to the law, he is now subject to the new requirements. Does that mean they intend to reject all in-flight licenses and have them start over? Apologies if this has been covered already - I've been trying to keep up

I posted some pages back and it says 8/1 renewals and those who applied before the training was implemented, or to that effect.

It’s like the 7/20 and 8/1 dates. Have license before new training, okay. Have license by 8/1, extra okay.

 

[BroncoAZ]

Say that I purchase a newspaper with the date of 7/1.

It's 7/28 now, will a photo featuring that newspaper be evidence that I owned something on 7/1?

How about some photos, print them out, get them notarized. This will have a witness date, at least.

The meta data on the picture file from my phone would match the date on the paper. We can only do so much to attempt compliance. Option B would be to register what I deem necessary in the current portal.

 

[bfm]

Wonder if anyone would notice if someone used the online portal to register two or three hundred 80% builds with no serial numbers tomorrow.

 

[AMV]

Say that I purchase a newspaper with the date of 7/1.

It's 7/28 now, will a photo featuring that newspaper be evidence that I owned something on 7/1?

How about some photos, print them out, get them notarized. This will have a witness date, at least.

Just post a photo in the new acquisition thread for July

 

[Jenska22]

Wonder if anyone would notice if someone used the online portal to register two or three hundred 80% builds with no serial numbers tomorrow.

or with serial numbers to be created, over night from a tag company

 

[bfm]

or with serial numbers to be created, over night from a tag company

Can I reserve EFFMAURA001 through 300?

 

[vicorjh]

The meta data on the picture file from my phone would match the date on the paper. We can only do so much to attempt compliance. Option B would be to register what I deem necessary in the current portal.

Same problem. The metadata relies on the camera's time and date, FWIW.

 

[novo]

Hi everyone I have a question that pertains to the new gun legislation passed. In the bill that passed there is a revisement to the basic firearm safety course. I took my basic firearm safety course on June 3rd. And I have already submitted my application and certificate to my local licensing authority. For which my application is pending review. So my question is since this new law passed am I going to have to take the new basic firearm safety course in order to get my license. Even though my application is already submitted? Plus the law says anyone who has their firearms license before August 1st 2024 is exempt from this new training standard. Most likely I will not receive my license till well after August 1st. So does this mean that once I receive my license and come up for renewal I will have to take the new safety course in order to renew the license?

 

[Picton]

Oh, my sweet summer child.

The short answer? Future renewals won't be subject to the new training requirements.

The long answer? This is about the 12th new thread on this general topic, and this specific question has been asked a score of times. There are a LOT of different facets to your question, and those other threads have all the speculation on what the answers are. It's not all that simple.

Welcome to NES...

 

[cockpitbob]

@CrackPot do you have an interpretation of how H4885 will affect all those 80% paperweights that people haven't gotten around to finishing?

 

[maltc]

Yes - as long as you have an LTC, you can lawfully possess a compliant AR.

I thought that’s up for debate right now? (Anything post 16 that is…)

 

[Tallahassee]

@CrackPot do you have an interpretation of how H4885 will affect all those 80% paperweights that people haven't gotten around to finishing?

I'm not a lawyer, but my best educated guess, it shouldn't affect an 80% at all.

 

[Mountain]

Fair question, given that you are currently in LTC purgatory. Total guess on my part, but I would think you are good to go as you fulfilled the requirements as they were at the time of your submission.

 

[MGnoob]

If people dont think this shipping thing in this bill is the worst. They will once all shops have zero inventory and can recieve nothing in.

I have no idea if you can buy a long gun across state lines, with this bill. We all know you cant with a handgun so all handgun sales will stop
at some point.

The FFL would just have to cross state lines and buy them from the manufacturer or another FFL

 

[cockpitbob]

I'm not a lawyer, but my best educated guess, it shouldn't affect an 80% at all.

Meaning they don't have to be serialize and eFA10'd into the system before 8/1 and people can finish them next year, request a serial number and register at that time?

 

[pastera]

disclaimer: Recent LTC, didn't prepare, did write to reps, not panic buying, I got whatever I got.
In the 'careful what you wish for' category, I had a dark thought this morning. What happens if 4885 gets overturned?

Those sections go away

Will it be piecemeal or in toto?

It will be in sections - that's just how the court operates

Where does that leave all the panic buyers and their new, now grandfatherless, firearms? Are they now all owners of once again previously proscribed items?

The new law replaces the previous law.
If the law gets shot down, then there simply isn't anything there except freedom.
Sometimes a court will stay it's opinion to allow a state to enact a new, compliant law.

This shit show - there is no constitutional cure for the bans so they will go away
The training requirements - likely to stay partially (safety and handling)
The red flag stuff - this is way to new to know exactly where Scotus will land. It's obviously well past the line now but exactly where that line lands, we don't know.

 

[Drix]

According to the law, they've effectively stopped all new gun licenses until such time as the State Police Stand up all the new training requirements. In actuality, the law states that unless your license has been issued as of 8/1 (or renewals) you'll be subjected to the new training requirements. My son submitted his application about 3 weeks ago but it has yet to be issued by the state. According to the law, he is now subject to the new requirements. Does that mean they intend to reject all in-flight licenses and have them start over? Apologies if this has been covered already - I've been trying to keep up

Be nice if they did, as that would slap Bruen in the face.

 

[chris_1001]

My cousin (the instructor in this case) posted this yesterday

 

[pastera]

I thought that’s up for debate right now? (Anything post 16 that is…)

No - a compliant AR that is lawfully possessed on 8/1 is fine
The question is can it be returned to a natural state - that is the question.

My opinion is that is the intention of the weird language - from 7/20/16 on you can possess those copies and duplicates but cannot remove the compliance modifications.

The crux of this is that it likely will never see the inside of a courtroom.
The simpler question of can a state ban a commonly possessed arm is what will be argued not what usability or cosmetic features can be regulated.