The Conference Committee has sent official language out - h.4885

[sieveboy]

That’s usually the missing piece - implementation. It takes 12-18mo to spec out a system, bid creation of the system and get it online, assuming it’s funded and staffed from the get-go. And it’s usually not, so 2yr+ is a good estimate.

My lesson from MA’s Non-Res LTC system is that, knowing that they could not facilitate yearly renewals on time, the FRB made sure to confirm you were not carrying in MA during the time your Non-Res LTC was pending. Knowing it will take a long time for any legal challenge to the bottlenecks made by negligence on their part, they’ll just look at it as a plus in discouraging firearms ownership. They get paid, your rights are delayed/denied, and your money is being spent to on both sides to address the problem.

guys like Proctor and Paul will be executing the system qualification, should be interesting

 

[Matt_SERE]

The date in the law is very specific 8/1/2024. No new licence applications will be excepted without the training certificate. This is the training certificate that dosent exist yet. 90 days means nothing.

Are renewals "new license applications"?

 

[Tallahassee]

Which means you still have to somehow prove you owned a particular blank unserialized hunk of aluminum on 8/1…

The state would have to prove otherwise if they were to charge you.

 

[sbhaven]

Which means you still have to somehow prove you owned a particular blank unserialized hunk of aluminum on 8/1…

They also add the following definition, to section 121 of said chapter 140, that may affect "“Unfinished frame or receiver" due to them being added to the firearm definition:

375 “Untraceable firearm”, a firearm that has not been serialized or a firearm whose serial or
376 other identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, obliterated or mutilated in any
377 manner.

 

[nm1]

It depends how your licensing authority interprets it (or what they’ve been told).

Unfortunately that’s all that matters right now. We can point out the stupidity and how it is incorrect but what if they just say no. Or won’t submit it to the state?

Right, or if the state punts on any post 8/1 applications. It would be: you don’t like our process, so sue us.

 

[novo]

Well I called the FRB hotline about 2 weeks ago and was told that my application is pending background check by local PD.

 

[chris_1001]

I kind of figured this would happen. It is quite ridiculous that their interpretation means no licenses will be available for months or longer since the MSP has to develop the course, the instructor has to develop a plan to teach it, the test has to be passed, etc.

But I expect nothing more from the licensing authorities in this state. This law has so many problems but anyone not already in the game is going to face increased barriers to getting in.

I just figured they’d wait to play the game on the first. Not the signing date.

Just goes to show you how much they hate us.

 

[DJBrad]

The states historic claim is that an 80% Glock is ‘readily’ enough, paralleling the ATF line of thought in their frame rugulatory adventure that if you have and 80%+jig+all other parts you have a Glock

Since the bill diverts to ATF decisions than that is true.

 

[Tallahassee]

Wait a second, why is anyone talking about an 80 lower? Serious question.

 

[chris_1001]

Are renewals "new license applications"?

No

 

[JDL]

Are renewals "new license applications"?

No the law is very specific in its wording renewals are exempt, and you do not need to take the new training 08/01/2024 date no new applications will be excepted without the certificate. So if you currently have a LTC or you are applying for a renewal you do not have to take the new training.

 

[nm1]

The date in the law is very specific 8/1/2024. No new licence applications will be excepted without the training certificate. This is the training certificate that dosent exist yet. 90 days means nothing.
It is just like the specific date for AW 8/1/2024 I don't think that means you can purchase an AW after that date because 90 days to go into effect.

Except the law has not come into force yet. When it does come into force in October it will reverse date the requirements (just like with the AWB dates or the definition of ‘firearm’)
This is all semantics though, and the licensing authority may simply punt anything post 8/1. (Or at the signing…)

 

[Harry Christopher]

No renewals are exempted from the new training.

It will be interesting to see just how long it takes the MSP to come up with the new mandated training requirements. In the mean time individuals who wish to exercise their Constitution Right to keep and bear arms will be denied that right and have no realistic path to be made whole due to this new legislation.

 

[ddeck]

View attachment 902786

It will be interesting to see just how long it takes the MSP to come up with the new mandated training requirements. In the mean time individuals who wish to exercise their Constitution Right to keep and bear arms will be denied that right and have no realistic path to be made whole due to this new legislation.

Can they use overtime? /s

 

[JDL]

My grandson has sent an email to the licensing officer in our town last week to make an appointment for an LTC interview appointment based in the procedure outlined on our towns web site. He has the current training certificate and a completed application. He has heard nothing no returned email or phone call. And we live in a green town.

 

[Picton]

It will be interesting to see just how long it takes the MSP to come up with the new mandated training requirements.

My guess is five months. I'd bet the over, though.

In the mean time individuals who wish to exercise their Constitution Right to keep and bear arms will be denied that right and have no realistic path to be made whole due to this new legislation.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Thank you
I am blocked by the OP for stating that the only opinion that truly counts is that of the judge and/or jury, not a dealer posting his opinion on a forum

Buyer beware when accepting a free opinion that meets what you want the truth to be.

The more certain one is of their interpretation of the finder points of this new law, the less reliable their information is likey to be.

Some dealers think their FFL + MA state license to sell makes them an authority figure.

 

[Harry Christopher]

Can they use overtime? /s

I think that they have probably used up the entire OT budget on the Turnpike Patrols.

 

[Picton]

My grandson has sent an email to the licensing officer in our town last week to make an appointment for an LTC interview appointment based in the procedure outlined on our towns web site. He has the current training certificate and a completed application. He has heard nothing no returned email or phone call. And we live in a blue town.

I think he would do VERY well to submit that application ASAP, by hook or by crook. Even if he gets no email response about the interview, he should take the application to the dispatch desk, insist that they take it, and demand a receipt. And film the whole thing.

If it's not submitted before 01 August, he'll have no ground to stand on when they call him back and tell him he needs to take the new class.

 

[DJBrad]

Wait a second, why is anyone talking about an 80 lower? Serious question.

Because the term “firearm” now includes a frame or receiver and the term “unfinished frame or receiver” would now throw a gray area in that 80% or even 76% bridge frame question.

 

[milktree]

It'll be fun when they can't buy or order an O/U at deli ticket emporium or cabelas once the roster bs kicks in. "apparently the antis stopped thinking "guns are fine for hunting" about 2 sec before they passed this.

No they didn't. This is an example of incompetence. The number of just outright typos in H4885 is amazing.

 

[JDL]

I really think all the licensing authorities will stick to the 8/1/2024 date. Not wanting to submit new applications to the state. It is unknown if these new applacations will just be denied by the state because of the 8/1/2024. No one really knows. No information or guidance is available for them to follow.

 

[not new guy]

My guess is five months. I'd bet the over, though.

It does seem like one of these clearly disenfranchised groups - dealers, new applicants, gun owners… someone - should be able to sue to block this in the short term but I guess that requires a sympathetic judge. Do we have an organization of minority gun owners somewhere in MA that can lead the charge? Maybe an LGBTQ shooting group? Someone they’ll be afraid to dismiss?

 

[sbhaven]

Wait a second, why is anyone talking about an 80 lower? Serious question.

Because a question about 80% lowers was previously asked about in the discussion. And because they changed the definition of firearm to include "unfinished frame or receiver" and added a "unfinished frame or receiver" definition as I pointed out up thread in reply to the 80% lower question:

“Firearm”, a stun gun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, large capacity firearm, assault-style firearm and machine gun, loaded or unloaded, which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a shot or bullet; the frame or receiver of any such firearm or the unfinished frame or receiver of any such firearm; provided, however, that “firearm” shall not include any antique firearm or permanently inoperable firearm.

“Unfinished frame or receiver”, a forging, casting, printing, extrusion, machined body or similar item that: (i) has reached a stage in manufacture when it may readily be completed or assembled to function as a frame or receiver; or (ii) is marketed or sold to the public to become or be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm once completed or assembled; provided, however, that “unfinished frame or receiver” shall not include a component designed and intended for use in an antique firearm.

 

[milktree]

Is anyone up to speed on the non-resident parts of this bill?

obviously we can’t buy guns in MA regardless but we can still posess guns with a LTC. Does that mean any guns we bring or carry need to be registered?

Only if you're here for more than seven days.

Can non residents bring and use preban mags or are our prebans completely worthless once this takes effect.

The new law doesn't even say you have to have a MA. LTC to possess a pre-ban full capacity magazine. It says an LTC allows you to have one, but doesn't say one is required. (or I haven't found that part, which is more likely)

In any case, assuming you have an LTC:

Section 131M.
(a) No person shall possess, own, offer for sale, sell or otherwise transfer in the commonwealth or import into the commonwealth an assault-style firearm, or a large capacity feeding device.
…
(c) Subsection (a) shall not apply to large capacity feeding devices lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994 only if such possession is:
(i) on private property owned or legally controlled by the person in possession of the large capacity feeding device;
(ii) on private property that is not open to the public with the express permission of the property owner or the property owner's authorized agent;
(iii) while on the premises of a licensed firearms dealer or gunsmith for the purpose of lawful repair;
(iv) at a licensed firing range or sports shooting competition venue; or
(v) while traveling to and from these locations; provided, that the large capacity feeding

If you're traveling in MA to a match, then 131M(c)(v) applies.

 

[Coyote33]

Not when the feds throw him in prison for dealing without a license

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1995/05/31/when-the-redcoats-confiscated-guns/e38d0810-af85-4949-8d93-3da746601e65/

Here is why the Redcoats were coming to Lexington and Concord

Just about everyone knows about the Battles of Lexington and Concord. It was from this stage that "the shot heard `round the world" echoed out and it was

www.wearethemighty.com

How the British Gun Control Program Precipitated the American Revolution | Tenth Amendment Center

Had the American colonies lost their war for independence, the British government intended to strip them of all their guns and place them under the thumb of a permanent standing army.

tenthamendmentcenter.com

 

[Picton]

It does seem like one of these clearly disenfranchised groups - dealers, new applicants, gun owners… someone - should be able to sue to block this in the short term but I guess that requires a sympathetic judge. Do we have an organization of minority gun owners somewhere in MA that can lead the charge? Maybe an LGBTQ shooting group? Someone they’ll be afraid to dismiss?

Personally (IANAL, just spitballin'), the new applicants are the ones with the strongest case. Especially a new applicant who's just moved into the state with a shitload of compliant or preban guns from a free state, signing their lease on 02 AUG.

I don't think the new law allows any way for that person to get an LTC unless the staties get off their ass and establish their new curriculum within the grace period, and if not? Then the new law forces the new resident to either become a felon or give up their clearly lawful property.

I get that the judges here are mostly antis, but this is an egregious example of a badly-written law... the kind of law that'll clog up the courts for years with stupid picayune lawsuits over wording issues any knowledgeable proofreader could have caught. I doubt this state is completely lacking in cranky judges with a mind to punish the legislature over how poorly thought-out this law is.

 

[florida-lots1123]

Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.

Thanks for your insight Randy. I agree, not that that means anything. What about Pre Ban Magazines ? 10/23/24

 

[HorizontalHunter]

My grandson has sent an email to the licensing officer in our town last week to make an appointment for an LTC interview appointment based in the procedure outlined on our towns web site. He has the current training certificate and a completed application. He has heard nothing no returned email or phone call. And we live in a blue town.

Sadly it is really clear. “No license ISSUED AFTER AUGUST 1”

Any license applied for at this point can’t possibly “BE ISSUED” before August first. A defacto ban on obtaining firearms until the state gets around to updating the new requirements and figures out how to issue certificates.

This should be a slam dunk for an immediate injunction.

 

[DarkJoker33]

So, idiot question here.
Say I purchase an ar10 lower with a receipt from an online retailer that say purchase date is 7/31 or 8/1 but my background check/efa10 paperwork is 8/6.

Where would that land me?