Adam Kokesh Calls for Peaceful Open Carry March July 4th from Virginia to D.C.

[calsdad]

I get what you're saying, but should things ever hit the fan, and all hell breaks loose, eventually, you'll find yourself aside people of whom you don't know their background. few hundred years ago, you had farmers who didn't know each other meeting up to take back their rights. I do see what you mean though.

Actually I bet a lot of those guys knew each other pretty well. If they were serving in a town militia they at least had a passing familiarity with everybody there. And there was a lot more connection thru family back then than there is now. I bet you had a lot of " yeah that guys alright - he's married to Tobias Smith's cousin and that woman doesn't put up with any crap" type stuff going on.

It's not like it is these days where most people don't even know who their next door neighbor is.

 

[calsdad]

The loss of community is a big part of many things wrong with governance today. We are a nation of strangers willing to tolerate rampant abuse of our neighbors because we feel no bond with them so long as "they don't come for me".

Somewhat inevitable with a nation of this size, but the solution is that virtually all governance should be local so that the effect on your fellow citizens is local, tangible and visible to you rather than regulating "them", "over there".

We have turned this whole thing upside down in centralizing governance for the sake of fighting institutional racism. Instead of punishing racist institutions for their misdeeds we traded local racism for Federal racism and along with it went a whole host of liberties unrelated to racism (as a consequence of centralizing power).

In the eyes of the people who have pushed us into this set of circumstances - that is a feature not a bug.

 

[cekim]

In the eyes of the people who have pushed us into this set of circumstances - that is a feature not a bug.

Understood. If you are going to start Eugenics up again, you need to dehumanize as much of the population as possible. [sad2]

 

[calsdad]

I'm with you for the most part, but strongly disagree with you on this last, highlighted part. Just look back a couple of weeks ago to the Boston Marathon manhunt as a prime example. MOST of all the gunfire heard on the videos WAS the police - not the bombers. Same with Jose in AZ, etc. etc. All it takes is one guy tripping and letting off a round, or other gunshot type sound to set off a barrage of gunfire because EVERYONE there will be emotionally charged. When someone in a crowd that big starts shooting (or the perception thereof) do you really believe that ANYONE else there is going to kick back and try to investigate where the shot came from?

Maybe that's what they're going for.

There is a long history in revolutionary action of basically causing the oppressor to show their true face by instigating a massacre. The "Arab Spring" stuff started because some guy immolated himself in protest over the police oppression. So a bunch of guys march towards DC - the cops go all Watertown trigger happy and mow down a few thousand with armored cars setup with .50bmg on top and a few drone strikes thrown in for good measure - and NO COPS DIE.

That would surely wake a few people up to what is going on in this country. A lot of people would say "they had it coming" - but if NO COPS DIE - and hundreds or thousands of marchers die - and it's later found that none of them were actually armed or fired - then a LOT of people would be seriously asking themselves exactly what kind of government it is that they are living under.

WOuld it mean anything in the end? I'm actually not so sure it would - I've been somewhat amazed lately of the capability of the mass amount of sheep to delude themselves about what is going on around them.

 

[calsdad]

This all the way. Here's the three possible outcomes:
1) They do it and nothing happens - This is good for them, but bad in that every single media source will be showing video about the evil, white, racist, crazy, domestic terrorist militia walking around giving congress the sheep it needs to pass more laws and results in not less gun laws, but more. Every single person who takes part gets a nice little bump to the top of every list and finds themselves getting SWATed at worst and at best the subject of repeated IRS audits and addition to the no fly list.

2) They do it and get arrested - See results of number 1 and add they all become PPs and get drug out in front of the media at every opportunity during trial for Obama, Bloomberg, Schumer, et al to rave about how we need to eliminate gun ownership before the racist militias start shooting.

3) They actually shoot back while an arrest attempt is being made - All of 1 and 2 plus add most of them die, DC becomes a North Korean-esque militarized zone forever. Their families all get SWATed/DHSed/FBIed/ATFed and a large portion of them die in a wave of mini Ruby Ridge events. Like Boston, the sheep cheer for the police state and agree that guns need to be banned and these families had it coming. The US becomes a dictatorship and either devolves very quickly into a full open 1984 or enters civil war.

This is a stupid idea. Either get people together and make the decision to start shooting, or do yourselves and your families a favor and keep prepping for former at a later date.

It seems to me that Kokesh is putting the cart before the horse.

" The revolution was won in the hearts and minds of the people before the fighting ever began"

Can we seriously say that this has happened in this country yet? Has a crucial majority of people come to the hard conclusion that the government REALLY needs to be replaced? I'm sorry but I've been arguing this stuff for a long time now - and it just doesn't seem like we're there yet. I see far too many people who still love the government in some form or fashion - including a hell of a lot of people right here on NES - which should be the population of people who have more insight than most into how bad the government has gotten in this country.

The first revolution in this country was led up to by DECADES of civil dissent - protests - and little outbreaks of violence here and there. I'm sorry - but I haven't seen sufficient evidence of that occuring yet. Some of this may be because the mainstream media just simply won't do it's job and report it - and maybe I'm missing it - but I just don't see the support there yet. Maybe this Kokesh thing needs to happen as one of those preceding events that solidify in people's minds what kind of government they live under - I don't know.

 

[soloman02]

It seems to me that Kokesh is putting the cart before the horse.

" The revolution was won in the hearts and minds of the people before the fighting every began"

Can we seriously say that this has happened in this country yet? Has a crucial majority of people come to the hard conclusion that the government REALLY needs to be replaced? I'm sorry but I've been arguing this stuff for a long time now - and it just doesn't seem like we're there yet. I see far too many people who still love the government in some form or fashion - including a hell of a lot of people right here on NES - which should be the population of people who have more insight than most into how bad the government has gotten in this country.

The first revolution in this country was led up to by DECADES of civil dissent - protests - and little outbreaks of violence here and there. I'm sorry - but I haven't seen sufficient evidence of that occuring yet. Some of this may be because the mainstream media just simply won't do it's job and report it - and maybe I'm missing it - but I just don't see the support there yet. Maybe this Kokesh thing needs to happen as one of those preceding events that solidify in people's minds what kind of government they live under - I don't know.

A big thing to keep in mind here is that we (yes even us free people in NH) are EXTREMELY sheltered from the views of everyone in the Red states down south. So while you think "Wtf hardly anyone I meet thinks the .gov is bad or needs to be replaced" your POV is that of New England where the majority thinks the Feds are cool.

The South is much different. I know several people down south right now, I can tell you that a decent number, maybe even a majority, are all WTF over the government and think it should change. And not the kind of change Obama wants.

 

[codenamepaul]

If there was a actual gun grab/confiscation on the books beeing implemented, i could see this happening, but we know there a bit more sly then that,

not enough peope are fed up and ready to make this push

You obviously have not been paying attention.

 

[Jason Flare]

I can think of more reasons not to go than have been written here in this thread but every one of those reasons, for me, involves sacrificing liberty for security.

 

[jefftk]

A big thing to keep in mind here is that we (yes even us free people in NH) are EXTREMELY sheltered from the views of everyone in the Red states down south. So while you think "Wtf hardly anyone I meet thinks the .gov is bad or needs to be replaced" your POV is that of New England where the majority thinks the Feds are cool.

The South is much different. I know several people down south right now, I can tell you that a decent number, maybe even a majority, are all WTF over the government and think it should change. And not the kind of change Obama wants.

If there was a actual gun grab/confiscation on the books beeing implemented, i could see this happening, but we know there a bit more sly then that,

not enough peope are fed up and ready to make this push

You obviously have not been paying attention.

Maybe this is part of the problem

 

[calsdad]

A big thing to keep in mind here is that we (yes even us free people in NH) are EXTREMELY sheltered from the views of everyone in the Red states down south. So while you think "Wtf hardly anyone I meet thinks the .gov is bad or needs to be replaced" your POV is that of New England where the majority thinks the Feds are cool.

The South is much different. I know several people down south right now, I can tell you that a decent number, maybe even a majority, are all WTF over the government and think it should change. And not the kind of change Obama wants.

The problem is that New England - and MA and Boston in particular - are national "attitude" leaders. They hold a (probably undue) amount of political influence on national politics. Look at the amount of presidents or presidential candidates who have come out of MA - look at how much ass-kissing goes on between Obama and MA - look at how many national leaders come out of the schools here, look at the history of schooling in this country and who influenced it, etc. - look at the history of the country.

So what I'm saying is this: Yes the rest of the country might be pissed - but unless they're willing to break away (again) - and try going it on their own , then MA and the attitudes here are going to continue to rule over them. Something has to change fundamentally HERE in people's attitudes about the govt. before we can expect to see any sort of sea change in the way this country is headed. Either that or a multi hundred year streak of political influence has to be completely broken and MA has to start going completely down the crapper so it's looked up as left-behind corrupted backwater joke.

I just don't think we are at either of those places yet.

 

[June4th]

Hmm, fix MA, fix the nation; or fix Harvard/Yale, fix the nation... I like it when we turn big problems into smaller ones (not to say the smaller problems are any easier to fix).

 

[Rockrivr1]

Not sure why but the more I think about this march, the more I think it needs to be done like a military operation. Sure, you can have your main marchers, but I'm thinking it's a bad idea to keep everyone in a group like that. There need to be scouts by the bridge and on the route to let the marchers know what's coming up. You need groups on your flanks, maybe walking one street over on either side and even shifting to keep watchers on their feet. Definitely a rear guard to make sure the marchers don't get trapped on the the bridge. While I hate to say this you need an internal policing group to make sure nobody does something stupid or try to spy out a troublemaker looking for a problem. If a firefight is inevitable having everyone with ARs is a bad idea. You need groups carry something more powerful that can reach out and touch if needed and a very well organized plan to deal with the inevitable armored cars and possibly a tank or two that will roll into them. Hell there even needs to be an advanced guard at the rally point and an alternate rally point in case the first one is overrun. That's a lot of coordination for a guy who has an internet talk show.....

If these marchers go in there thinking this will be a cake walk and everyone will just get along, aka Woodstock, they are going to get a very rude awakening.

 

[Jason Flare]

Not sure why but the more I think about this march, the more I think it needs to be done like a military operation. Sure, you can have your main marchers, but I'm thinking it's a bad idea to keep everyone in a group like that. There need to be scouts by the bridge and on the route to let the marchers know what's coming up. You need groups on your flanks, maybe walking one street over on either side and even shifting to keep watchers on their feet. Definitely a rear guard to make sure the marchers don't get trapped on the the bridge. While I hate to say this you need an internal policing group to make sure nobody does something stupid or try to spy out a troublemaker looking for a problem. If a firefight is inevitable having everyone with ARs is a bad idea. You need groups carry something more powerful that can reach out and touch if needed and a very well organized plan to deal with the inevitable armored cars and possibly a tank or two that will roll into them. Hell there even needs to be an advanced guard at the rally point and an alternate rally point in case the first one is overrun. That's a lot of coordination for a guy who has an internet talk show.....

If these marchers go in there thinking this will be a cake walk and everyone will just get along, aka Woodstock, they are going to get a very rude awakening.

And to think this is all over the following:


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


And all we want to do is bear arms in our nation's capitol.

 

[bullseye]

And to think this is all over the following:


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


And all we want to do is bear arms in our nation's capitol.

And 1, 4, 16, that's just for starts.

I just hope the .gov doesn't throw a few plants in there to fire a few shots to justify DHS opening up on them. They got a lot of ammo to use up.

 

[Jason Flare]

And 1, 4, 16, that's just for starts.

I just hope the .gov doesn't throw a few plants in there to fire a few shots to justify DHS opening up on them. They got a lot of ammo to use up.

Everyone wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

Everyone wants liberty but nobody wants to give up security.

 

[Quiet]

Perhaps the most intriguing question I've ever read about situations like the one gunowners find themselves in today was in Unintended Consequences. There is a small event in the book when the main character is in a class discussing tyranny and the Jews and asks a professor "When should the people openly fight back?"

This question is the premise of all revolts, most of which come "too late." No answer is given in the book, the main character merely notes that the question is usually too tough to gauge until it is too late and so perhaps it is better to act sooner under caution, than later when no actions can be taken.

The point of the thought exercise is merely to ask yourselves a simple, yet seemingly answerless question: When should the Jews have started killing Germans?

Should they have started in 1933 after the Nazis set up the first concentration camp at Dachau and interned 200 Communists knowing that if one groupd would be persecuted by government so would others? (Gitmo anyone?)
Should it have started in 1933 after books with ideas considered dangerous to Nazi beliefs are burned. (DHS monitoring reading/media habits anyone?)
Should it have started in 1934 when Jewish newspapers could no longer be sold in the streets? (You must have an active office in DC to be in the press pool anyone?)
Should it have started in 1935 when Jews are deprived of their citizenship and other basic rights? (Boston bomber not mirandized? Talk of exportation despite him legally being here?)
Should they have started in 1938 on Kristallnacht, the 'Night of Broken Glass,' when Nazis terrorized Jews throughout Germany and Austria?
Should they have started after the gun control act of 1938? (CGA '68 anyone?)

There are of course lots of other things that occurred in those years as well. The question is at what point is armed rebellion called for? Do we need to let people be rounded up or killed before acting? Is it necessary to wait for the state to abuse it's power (shutting down Boston) before something happens, or should just the fact that the state claims that power be enough to act before innocent people's lives are threatended?

I'm not giving an answer, i'm just saying I think we're far past a point in this country where people should be having this discussion openly with their family and friends and asking themselves how long they think it is before they become labelled the Jews of the 21st century - TERRORISTS. Because once that happens, like the Jews, it's too late.

I frequently tell a slightly shorter version of this, going into the same details, and keep asking "When did the Jews have the RIGHT to fight back?"
Nobody can ever answer that question.
And then I ask them:

"At what point did the Japanese American citizens have that right? After they were stripped of their possessions? Before being herded into their trains? After all, they had no idea what lied ahead of them at the end of THEIR train ride, either. But for a more benevolent dictator in FDR..."

They are usually disgusted at the similarity of the circumstances and also they knee-jerk reaction to the suggestion that such things could have ever happened here.

But nobody has EVER been able to answer those questions, and almost nobody ever has tried.

 

[calsdad]

I frequently tell a slightly shorter version of this, going into the same details, and keep asking "When did the Jews have the RIGHT to fight back?"
Nobody can ever answer that question.
And then I ask them:

"At what point did the Japanese American citizens have that right? After they were stripped of their possessions? Before being herded into their trains? After all, they had no idea what lied ahead of them at the end of THEIR train ride, either. But for a more benevolent dictator in FDR..."

They are usually disgusted at the similarity of the circumstances and also they knee-jerk reaction to the suggestion that such things could have ever happened here.

But nobody has EVER been able to answer those questions, and almost nobody ever has tried.

That question pretty much shows up how badly most people are sheep.

The answer is you have a right to fight back as soon as you feel like somebody is doing you harm. You might not actually do that if you felt that fighting back might do you worse harm - but that is a separate issue than the recognition that you HAVE A RIGHT TO FIGHT BACK.

The fact that so many people don't recognize that they even have this right is why the world is so effed up in the first place and why so many bad people get away with so much evil.

 

[cekim]

You are very right on this. Many years ago when I was active in the Mass. Trappers Assoc. I got up and addressed the meeting with, We have to start telling the elected that we send to Boston that they are accountable to us and that we would organize and replace them. I was told that,"You can not talk to a rep or senator, like that". My answer then was, "there is your problem".

"slander of the king"

 

[Jason Flare]

edit: see post below.

 

[Jason Flare]

That question pretty much shows up how badly most people are sheep.

The answer is you have a right to fight back as soon as you feel like somebody is doing you harm. You might not actually do that if you felt that fighting back might do you worse harm - but that is a separate issue than the recognition that you HAVE A RIGHT TO FIGHT BACK.

The fact that so many people don't recognize that they even have this right is why the world is so effed up in the first place and why so many bad people get away with so much evil.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

The harm has been to our God given right to life and we have had the right to fight back since the first infringement. But we didn't fight back.

We don't fight back when we discuss for several hours what constitutes a loaded gun on the way to a gun range.

We don't fight back when we define for the legislators what, direct control, means and to be Massprudent our definition is stricter than the legislators' definition.

I won't go on. You have had the right to fight back and you haven't. BTW, I do not see this march in any way as, "fighting back." We have declared that we will break no laws and have asked to be allowed a walk around our nation's capitol, and have clearly stated that if stopped at the VA/DC border, we will peacefully turn back.

As for not knowing or trusting these people, I didn't know if I could trust anyone of you when I went to Boston, North Brookfield, and West Springfield. But I went and extended my hand and met you. If you had been thugs looking for trouble I would have turned back and left. The same applies to VA.

In light of where we are with gun laws now and with the recent laws that have been passed in CT, NY, Co, and MD, and the bills in committee in MA, I just don't see sitting at home or at a picnic on the 4th a viable option when the anti-gun people have clearly stated their goal.

 

[rchap36]

This march will never never never go on Just sayin my 2 cents

 

[Jason Flare]

This march will never never never go on Just sayin my 2 cents

It will certainly never happen if everyone stays home saying they're not going.

 

[Dench]

Not sure why but the more I think about this march, the more I think it needs to be done like a military operation.

You're over thinking this and twisting its original intent. The intent is to simply walk from VA to DC and back with a rifle on a persons back. Thats it. It would be an irregular militia literally walking in a loop. That's the intent. if you start adding defensive squad formations, or imply any intent that the group is either ready to resist or ready to resist .gov resistance, you are taking away from the original intent - a walk with a rifle.

Your last sentences about having more than an AR and equipment to deal with tanks is ridiculous.

They aren't going into this "thinking this will be a cakewalk." Have you watched any of the videos on this? it doesn't look like you have. Kokesh said just recently that they all expected to be arrested and they are under the assumption that they will be charged with crimes that will average 5 years in jail. Kokesh said he was willing to let the courts figure that out.

None of this is violent or has any intentions of being violent. Its about free men, with weapons, going for a walk in America from an authorized zone to an unauthorized zone and back. reading into it anymore than that is making up things and twisting the intent.

Kokesh has been arrested before for non violent / civil disobedience protests, this type of thing is his MO.

 

[Terminator03]

It will certainly never happen if everyone stays home saying they're not going.

Although I agree with you, I believe he meant that it will never happen because the gestapo won't allow it to proceed past the rally point.

 

[Jason Flare]

Although I agree with you, I believe he meant that it will never happen because the gestapo won't allow it to proceed past the rally point.

Choices. Life is full of choices. If the gestapo chooses to stop me I have committed to remain law abiding and turn back.

 

[Terminator03]

You're over thinking this and twisting its original intent. The intent is to simply walk from VA to DC and back with a rifle on a persons back. Thats it. It would be an irregular militia literally walking in a loop. That's the intent. if you start adding defensive squad formations, or imply any intent that the group is either ready to resist or ready to resist .gov resistance, you are taking away from the original intent - a walk with a rifle.

Your last sentences about having more than an AR and equipment to deal with tanks is ridiculous.

They aren't going into this "thinking this will be a cakewalk." Have you watched any of the videos on this? it doesn't look like you have. Kokesh said just recently that they all expected to be arrested and they are under the assumption that they will be charged with crimes that will average 5 years in jail. Kokesh said he was willing to let the courts figure that out.

None of this is violent or has any intentions of being violent. Its about free men, with weapons, going for a walk in America from an authorized zone to an unauthorized zone and back. reading into it anymore than that is making up things and twisting the intent.

Kokesh has been arrested before for non violent / civil disobedience protests, this type of thing is his MO.

That may be true, but being charged with a crime punishable by 5 years in jail automatically makes you a prohibited person so anyone who still retains the ability to bring their gun to that march won't ever have that right again after that day, so what is the point? You may as well pretend it's go time at that point, otherwise you are just pissing away your rights and freedom just to say f-you to the .gov? Well, guess who gets the last laugh...?

 

[Jason Flare]

That may be true, but being charged with a crime punishable by 5 years in jail automatically makes you a prohibited person so anyone who still retains the ability to bring their gun to that march won't ever have that right again after that day, so what is the point? You may as well pretend it's go time at that point, otherwise you are just pissing away your rights and freedom just to say f-you to the .gov? Well, guess who gets the last laugh...?

Can you imagine adjudicating several thousand Americans and ruling that they can no longer possess a firearm? I know the people who have no interest in this rally are liable to watch from the sidelines but I would think a few of the people arrested and found guilty might say they are mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore.

 

[Dench]

That may be true, but being charged with a crime punishable by 5 years in jail automatically makes you a prohibited person so anyone who still retains the ability to bring their gun to that march won't ever have that right again after that day, so what is the point? You may as well pretend it's go time at that point, otherwise you are just pissing away your rights and freedom just to say f-you to the .gov? Well, guess who gets the last laugh...?

You don't get it. I'll try to explain:
- as an American, you should be able to walk with a weapon on any public property period. You can't. Kokesh is protesting that.
- as a free American, no where in the constitution does it mention that you can be stripped of your rights for breaking the law after punishment. If Kokesh gets arrested and is illegally added to the prohibited persons list, he's going to fight it as it's not legal.
- "go time" is "gay time." Only people that are eCommando's on NES talk about "go time." No one on NES is ready under any circumstances to organize any group of any size to "go fight the government." It's not going to happen in todays climate. Non violent protest and being arrested for simply carrying a weapon is going to get a lot more positive spin than gay "go time" and getting into shoot outs with police and being demonized by the .gov and mass media as a terrorist.

Kokesh is willing to go to jail and let the courts figure it out via the constitution. None of us are willing to put our lives on hold like he is. We need more people like him while the rest of us sit on the sidelines bitching about it. He has a lot more balls than I do, I'll be the 1st to admit it. it's people like Kokesh that start important events, not people like us that bitch and moan about laws and do nothing about it. If Kokesh goes through with this, I will have a massive amount of respect for him.

You can get a lot more done politically by being arrested for doing nothing - walking with a fire arm, then you can by shooting at people with intent to kill to make political points.

Kokesh very frequently speaks about the non aggression principle. He is essentialy a passifist until he is harmed. He isnt going to harm people or try to harm people to make a political point - it's against his very foundation of idealogy.


If you want to be a "go time" operator and not a non violent protester let me give you the needed to do list:
1. be 50-150lbs over weight.
2. talk shit on the internet about fighting the .gov with violent resistance.
3. imply that you have a posse of 5 other equally obese and out of shape people who are going to help you fight the government.
4. have no practical experience with your firearms outside of a sterile shooting range.
5. practice shooting drills in the latest call of duty title with the rest of your squad in game with you.

 

[Rockrivr1]

I have watched his videos and a non-violent protest may very well be "his" intention. But I seriously doubt that will be the intention of everyone involved in this endeavor. I still stand with the thought that if this goes through they do need to make certain precautions. Just walking blindly up the street as a group may end up being the last thing he does on this plane of existence.

I'll be be honest and say I'm torn here. One side of me hopes this happens and it's a peaceful and successful march. The other side of me hope this turns into a conflict and it finally wakes some people up.

You're over thinking this and twisting its original intent. The intent is to simply walk from VA to DC and back with a rifle on a persons back. Thats it. It would be an irregular militia literally walking in a loop. That's the intent. if you start adding defensive squad formations, or imply any intent that the group is either ready to resist or ready to resist .gov resistance, you are taking away from the original intent - a walk with a rifle.

Your last sentences about having more than an AR and equipment to deal with tanks is ridiculous.

They aren't going into this "thinking this will be a cakewalk." Have you watched any of the videos on this? it doesn't look like you have. Kokesh said just recently that they all expected to be arrested and they are under the assumption that they will be charged with crimes that will average 5 years in jail. Kokesh said he was willing to let the courts figure that out.

None of this is violent or has any intentions of being violent. Its about free men, with weapons, going for a walk in America from an authorized zone to an unauthorized zone and back. reading into it anymore than that is making up things and twisting the intent.

Kokesh has been arrested before for non violent / civil disobedience protests, this type of thing is his MO.

 

[xtry51]

They'll become PPs, but lets be honest. They'll still own guns, just illegal ones. I'm sure some of these guys are smart enough to either just purchase a gun on the black market or make one themselves.