Frame FA-10 in light of upcoming vote on H.4139

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

Group P80 and engrave buy?

 

[pastera]

How does one prove they were lawfully possessed if they don't have a receipt from when they purchased?

If they are serialized lowers try to get a copy of your 4473 from the dealer.
Or build it out and register (yes this is an option on the portal therefore you can actually comply with the "register" part of the law even now)

 

[chris_1001]

If they are serialized lowers try to get a copy of your 4473 from the dealer.
Or build it out and register (yes this is an option on the portal therefore you can actually comply with the "register" part of the law even now)

Let the state prove it’s born on/owned date.

 

[pastera]

Let the state prove it’s born on/owned date.

Yes but at that point you've lost already since you're probably $50-$100k into a legal defense with no chance of recovery.
Paying a dealer for an hour or two of labor to find the record is a lot cheaper.

Hopefully most of this 7/20 vs 8/1 stuff goes away by next June.
Praying Illinois or Maryland goes to a final decision soon so they can get Cert in the next session.
It will really suck if it gets there and SCOTUS kicks it back with another GVR.

Or we get lucky and we find the perfect plaintiff here for SCOTUS to grant injuctive relief. The can't sell long guns problem will very likely have Thomas spitting nails. And if he gets ahold of it the injunction might be very broad and cover any common sold arms.

 

[chris_1001]

Yes but at that point you've lost already since you're probably $50-$100k into a legal defense with no chance of recovery.
Paying a dealer for an hour or two of labor to find the record is a lot cheaper.

Are you suggesting I have to pay for them to do a trace?

And also I should always have copys ofmy 4473’s?

I’d agree I should have copy’s of 4473’s.

Do dealers want us to have copy’s?

I asked that once a long time ago 2016 and was told that they should look it up vs us helping.

 

[pastera]

Are you suggesting I have to pay for them to do a trace?

And also I should always have copys ofmy 4473’s?

I’d agree I should have copy’s of 4473’s.

Do dealers want us to have copy’s?

I asked that once a long time ago 2016 and was told that they should look it up vs us helping.

It was the answer to someone's question of if they didn't have their receipt for a stripped lower, how could they prove date of possession.

Yes, if you want a dealer to do the work of finding your particular 4473, then you need to compensate them. If they have electronic records it may only take a few seconds but with paper records it's going to take a lot longer.

Remember, the state must provide exculpatory evidence in their possession, they have zero obligation to search for or collect it.

As far as if we should keep a copy or if dealers want us to have a copy, I don't know nor care. The edge cases where it might help don't scare me enough to care.

 

[jron]

Wouldn't the FA10 serve as proof of ownership prior to 8/1? At least that way you have proven you were in legal possession on 8/1. Not that I want to FA10 anything but just thinking through all the various angles. Guida's position seems to be that any post "Maura's decree" in 2016 would be an illegal assault weapon since she told us we couldn't have them. I would think an FA10 now would just be confirming to the state who has the post Maura decree guns. Just thinking through how to handle a couple of lowers and a couple of builds I had planned to complete prior to 8/1.

Guida is completely wrong in his interpretation imo, but I’m not a lawyer.

Burden of proof of them convincing you of a crime. As Randy mentioned earlier the frame or receiver is logged in the books of the FFL as required by the Feds. There is a paper trail for it. One that does not yield us owners with a “ receipt” due to the convoluted and poorly written EXISTING laws on the books. The cut off for “assault weapons” is 8/1/24. Maura in 2016 came out with a reinterpretation/declaration/stance and that was not a law. Therefore everything is legal pre 8/1/24.

We can not register a frame prior to 8/1 because the EXISTING laws say it’s not a firearm according to state law. There has been no role out of this new system that we are supposed to use and won’t be for some time.

The new law states that you can manufacture a homemade weapon and it need to be registered with 7 days (same as existing law).

If someone is paranoid about it you could register it in the old system to get your “proof”. But burden of proof is on the state and circle back to the original point, it’s traceable via the FFL books saying it left out the door prior to 8/1.

Just one man’s take, again I am not a lawyer but seems relatively clear anything pre 8/1 is fine

 

[M125X]

Guida is completely wrong in his interpretation imo, but I’m not a lawyer.

Burden of proof of them convincing you of a crime. As Randy mentioned earlier the frame or receiver is logged in the books of the FFL as required by the Feds. There is a paper trail for it. One that does not yield us owners with a “ receipt” due to the convoluted and poorly written EXISTING laws on the books. The cut off for “assault weapons” is 8/1/24. Maura in 2016 came out with a reinterpretation/declaration/stance and that was not a law. Therefore everything is legal pre 8/1/24.

We can not register a frame prior to 8/1 because the EXISTING laws say it’s not a firearm according to state law. There has been no role out of this new system that we are supposed to use and won’t be for some time.

The new law states that you can manufacture a homemade weapon and it need to be registered with 7 days (same as existing law).

If someone is paranoid about it you could register it in the old system to get your “proof”. But burden of proof is on the state and circle back to the original point, it’s traceable via the FFL books saying it left out the door prior to 8/1.

Just one man’s take, again I am not a lawyer but seems relatively clear anything pre 8/1 is fine

So all Glock frames unfinished etc no need to do
Anything.

 

[MAJoe]

So all Glock frames unfinished etc no need to do
Anything.

It appears that P80s will be considered a frame and therefore a firearm:

“Firearm”, a stun gun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, large capacity firearm, assault-style firearm and machine gun, loaded or unloaded, which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a shot or bullet; the frame or receiver of any such firearm or the unfinished frame or receiver of any such firearm; provided, however, that “firearm” shall not include any antique firearm or permanently inoperable firearm.

An unfinished frame or receiver looks to cover 80% frames:

“Unfinished frame or receiver”, a forging, casting, printing, extrusion, machined body or similar item that: (i) has reached a stage in manufacture when it may readily be completed or assembled to function as a frame or receiver; or (ii) is marketed or sold to the public to become or be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm once completed or assembled; provided, however, that “unfinished frame or receiver” shall not include a component designed and intended for use in an antique firearm.

These will be required to be serialized and to comply with state safety criteria:

Section 121C. (a) All firearms shall have a serial number in accordance with the requirements of this section.

(b) No person shall knowingly possess, manufacture or assemble, cause to be manufactured or assembled, purchase, offer for sale, sell or otherwise transfer or import an untraceable firearm in the commonwealth; provided, however, that lawfully owned firearms imported or acquired by: (i) new residents moving into the commonwealth or acquired by heirs or devisees through distribution of an estate shall be serialized within 60 days of import or acquisition; and (ii) licensed firearms dealers, gunsmiths, distributors or manufacturers shall be serialized within 7 days of import or acquisition.
(c) No person shall manufacture or assemble a privately made firearm without: (i) obtaining a unique serial number from the department of criminal justice information services prior to manufacture or assembly; (ii) serializing the firearm with the obtained serial number during manufacture or assembly; and (iii) registering the firearm with the department of criminal justice information services in accordance with section 121B within 7 days of the firearm’s manufacture or assembly.
(d) No person shall manufacture or assemble a privately made firearm that does not comply with all relevant state and federal safety regulations.
(e) The department of criminal justice information services shall develop and maintain a serial number request system to electronically receive, record and process requests for a unique serial number in accordance with this section. The serial number request system shall be integrated with the electronic firearms registration system maintained by the department of criminal justice information services pursuant to section 121B and shall be able to register all firearms and report firearm transactions pursuant to said section 121B and ensure that all data on privately made firearms is available for data collection pursuant to section 121E and tracing purposes pursuant to 131Q.

From my non-lawyer read, it sounds like you have a year to serialize after the system for registration and requesting a serial is live:

SECTION 157. The department of criminal justice information services shall establish the electronic firearms registration system established pursuant to section 121B of chapter 140 of the General Laws, as inserted by section 32, not later than 1 year after the effective date of this act; provided, that all firearms shall be registered in accordance with this act and not later than 1 year after said electronic firearms registration system is completed and publicly available.
SECTION 158. The department of criminal justice information services shall establish the serial number request system established pursuant to section 121C of chapter 140 of the General Laws, as inserted by section 32, not later than 1 year after the effective date of this act; provided, that all firearms shall be serialized in accordance with this act and not later than 1 year after said serial number request system is completed and publicly available.

 

[M125X]

It appears that P80s will be considered a frame and therefore a firearm:



An unfinished frame or receiver looks to cover 80% frames:


These will be required to be serialized and to comply with state safety criteria:




From my non-lawyer read, it sounds like you have a year to serialize after the system for registration and requesting a serial is live:

Pretty crazy. So can we get 79% receivers? What about 0% hunks of aluminum?

0% Billet AR-15 Lower Receiver

Our 0% billet AR-15 lower receivers are essentially solid aluminum bricks ready to be forged! Buy this 6061-T6 aluminum slab online from 80 Percent Arms.

www.80percentarms.com

Thanks for posting with all the references.

ETA: here is a whole kit for them:

Zero Percent – Ghost Gunner

ghostgunner.net

 

[MAJoe]

Pretty crazy. So can we get 79% receivers? What about 0% hunks of aluminum?

0% Billet AR-15 Lower Receiver

Our 0% billet AR-15 lower receivers are essentially solid aluminum bricks ready to be forged! Buy this 6061-T6 aluminum slab online from 80 Percent Arms.

www.80percentarms.com

Thanks for posting with all the references.

ETA: here is a whole kit for them:

Zero Percent – Ghost Gunner

ghostgunner.net

You’re welcome. I think you’d get screwed by this language:

(ii) is marketed or sold to the public to become or be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm once completed or assembled

A conservative read of that sounds like a 0% chunk of T7075 marketed as “for an AR15 receiver” is no good. A block of the same dimensions marketed as a block of aluminum is fine? Same thing with 3D printers.

 

[M125X]

You’re welcome. I think you’d get screwed by this language:



A conservative read of that sounds like a 0% chunk of T7075 marketed as “for an AR15 receiver” is no good. A block of the same dimensions marketed as a block of aluminum is fine? Same thing with 3D printers.

Thank you for that response! I don’t like it, but it makes sense haha

Now how am I gonna serialize a hunk of aluminum?

 

[chris_1001]

Thank you for that response! I don’t like it, but it makes sense haha

Now how am I gonna serialize a hunk of aluminum?

 

[Sabougolden]

With the likely passing of H.4139, is it worth FA-10'ing a frame prior to passing, or no? It seems unclear if grandfathering will be allowed. Unsure if it's worth suddenly finishing my builds or not.

Fight club

 

[pastera]

Guida is completely wrong in his interpretation imo, but I’m not a lawyer.

Burden of proof of them convincing you of a crime. As Randy mentioned earlier the frame or receiver is logged in the books of the FFL as required by the Feds. There is a paper trail for it. One that does not yield us owners with a “ receipt” due to the convoluted and poorly written EXISTING laws on the books. The cut off for “assault weapons” is 8/1/24. Maura in 2016 came out with a reinterpretation/declaration/stance and that was not a law. Therefore everything is legal pre 8/1/24.

We can not register a frame prior to 8/1 because the EXISTING laws say it’s not a firearm according to state law. There has been no role out of this new system that we are supposed to use and won’t be for some time.

The new law states that you can manufacture a homemade weapon and it need to be registered with 7 days (same as existing law).

If someone is paranoid about it you could register it in the old system to get your “proof”. But burden of proof is on the state and circle back to the original point, it’s traceable via the FFL books saying it left out the door prior to 8/1.

Just one man’s take, again I am not a lawyer but seems relatively clear anything pre 8/1 is fine

You are forgetting that the only copies and duplicates that are exempt are those possessed and "registered" by FA-10 prior to 7/20/16.

Their burden of proof is this
Do you have a firearm or firearm part that constitutes an Assault-style Firearm - yes, an AR lower meets the test.
Do any exemptions apply?
In the transaction database on 7/20/16? Nope
Was it a firearm lawfully possessed on 8/1 - nope (not a firearm by current law if you go by crackpots interpretation that current law holds on 8/1 but the date is part of the new law so this is logically contradicting)

If you review the whole situation from the aspect of 23 October when everything is in place then because the lower is an ASW that wasn't in the system by 7/20 then it wasn't lawfully possessed on 8/1

Only the courts will be able to sort this out and they aren't on our side.

1529 (b) Subsection (a) shall not apply to an assault-style firearm lawfully possessed within the commonwealth on August 1, 2024, by an owner in possession of a license to carry issued under section 131 or by a holder of a license to sell under section 122; provided, that the assault-style firearm shall be registered in accordance with section 121B and serialized in accordance with section 121C.

 

[MAJoe]

You are forgetting that the only copies and duplicates that are exempt are those possessed and "registered" by FA-10 prior to 7/20/16.

Their burden of proof is this
Do you have a firearm or firearm part that constitutes an Assault-style Firearm - yes, an AR lower meets the test.
Do any exemptions apply?
In the transaction database on 7/20/16? Nope
Was it a firearm lawfully possessed on 8/1 - nope (not a firearm by current law if you go by crackpots interpretation that current law holds on 8/1 but the date is part of the new law so this is logically contradicting)

If you review the whole situation from the aspect of 23 October when everything is in place then because the lower is an ASW that wasn't in the system by 7/20 then it wasn't lawfully possessed on 8/1

Only the courts will be able to sort this out and they aren't on our side.

But, Healy’s notice did say frames and receivers would be treated as assault weapons. I agree the courts will have to decide but it’s going to be a battle for both sides.