MA Gun Grab 2024: H.4885 - Passed legislature, headed to the governor

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FisherTech said:
The FRB still has firearms on their rolls that I have long disposed of through an FFL. Their records are questionable at best. I believe there is a State Police Lt. That was being investigated for Citation Issues and when the Senior Jack Booted Thugs couldn't get him, they went and pulled his Dept issued LTC and then demanded that he surrender all his firearms. They tried to charge for not surrendering firearms that he disposed. They lost the whole case and he is still a State Police Lt. but a very wealthy one.
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The database is not suspect so much as it is misunderstood. It is not a database of what anyone owns. It is a database of transactions. They run a query of what was sold and transferred TO you and then act like this is a list of what you own. The database gives a potential list of guns you might own. There are many ways you can legally own guns never recorded. You of course can have disposed legally every gun ever sold/transferred to you and they both will not know and the query they do will never notice.


Law enforcement acts likes it’s a registry when it’s just a list of transactions. People here call it registration. It is neither. It’s misunderstood. Its useless.
 
CrackPot said:
The database is not suspect so much as it is misunderstood. It is not a database of what anyone owns. It is a database of transactions. They run a query of what was sold and transferred TO you and then act like this is a list of what you own. The database gives a potential list of guns you might own. There are many ways you can legally own guns never recorded. You of course can have disposed legally every gun ever sold/transferred to you and they both will not know and the query they do will never notice.


Law enforcement acts likes it’s a registry when it’s just a list of transactions. People here call it registration. It is neither. It’s misunderstood. Its useless.
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Worse than useless, it's dangerous because it's so misunderstood.
 
not new guy said:
I wonder if the state will send love letters summarizing the new rules to all LTC holders if and when this passes. I bet they do.
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I can see it now:

Dear LTC Holder,

Enjoy what you have now, you'll get nothing in the future.

PS - Maybe if you're lucky, we will allow you to renew your LTC, but only maybe.

Xoxo,

Maura
 
CrackPot said:
..... and your unwillingness to learn.
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www.northeastshooters.com

MA Gun Grab 2024: H.4885 - Passed legislature, headed to the governor

As an aside, I hate the way these d-bags wear their caps down low like they are some tough guys. They can't even see anything above their forehead - get a grip brownshirt that Schutzstaffel MA hat thing is truly ridiculous. Can’t believe that ever became a thing after WWII
www.northeastshooters.com www.northeastshooters.com

I do learn- make no mistake.

still... changes nothing. Unfortunately for us it will go the way I said it will go and we will fight / counteract it the way I said we will.

Your personal opinion (or mine) on the subject for all intents and purposes is largely irrelevant to the powermakers in our great state. The clunky 2A train in MA is about to derail and the question is what are -you- going to do. "I" am going to do nothing in regards to what I own or want to own. What -we- are going to do is clear and the path forward is well defined and known.
 
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not new guy said:
I wonder if the state will send love letters summarizing the new rules to all LTC holders if and when this passes. I bet they do.
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You really think they'll spend the money?

When it's inaccurate, can we use it as evidence in @Rob Boudrie's favorite* defense?

"Ignorance of the law" and all that.

* i.e., estoppel
 
Broc said:
Still, in that case the State doesn't know.

So, the only way for the State to know is:
1. You bought a complete gun from an FFL at a time when the FA10 existed.
2. You bought a gun through a private transaction at a time when the FA10 existed.
3. You bought a lower or frame and did an FA10 when you turned it into a gun.

So, there is nothing the State doesn't know, but knows about. Point B below.
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Item 3 is questionable. The senate bill added assembled or manufactured as reasons to tell the FRB. The current law is purchase or obtain. I personally believe that manufacturing or assembling from a lower or frame does NOT require informing the state. That they are amending the law to now add the words assemble or manufacture tells me they agree.

Also you forget

A. Moved to the state with the gun
B. Dealer or private party failed to perform fa10
C. Paper fa10 lost by state
D, paper fa10 destroyed when roof let water into records
E. Paper fa10 mis entered when computerized.
F. 7 days has not passed since purchased or obtained (or you left state or gun left state or was disassembled)

You get the idea. Easy for you to have a full blown arsenal they have no clue about and you have broken zero laws.
 
CrackPot said:
Item 3 is questionable. The senate bill added assembled or manufactured as reasons to tell the FRB. The current law is purchase or obtain. I personally believe that manufacturing or assembling from a lower or frame does NOT require informing the state. That they are amending the law to now add the words assemble or manufacture tells me they agree.

Also you forget

A. Moved to the state with the gun
B. Dealer or private party failed to perform fa10
C. Paper fa10 lost by state
D, paper fa10 destroyed when roof let water into records
E. Paper fa10 mis entered when computerized.
F. 7 days has not passed since purchased or obtained (or you left state or gun left state or was disassembled)

You get the idea. Easy for you to have a full blown arsenal they have no clue about and you have broken zero laws.
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G. eFA-10 entered incorrectly by dealer or private party
 
Picton said:
At that point, they have a choice to make: keep on ignoring us, thus tacitly admitting that their law sucked? Or prosecute us and risk the courts overturning everything they've done?
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Trust me you'll run out of money before it gets to an appeals court. Just to to make an 'example' out of a law abiding citizen
 
Mesatchornug said:
G. eFA-10 entered incorrectly by dealer or private party
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Yup. And there are H, I and J and…. The list is quite long.

As was said in another thread, channel your inner lazy inbred illiterate whenever you do a fa10. Human error is real so there is no reason you should try and be perfect.
 
CrackPot said:
Human error is real so there is no reason you should try and be perfect.
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Several years ago I fat fingered the serial number on an eFA10. I realized it after the form had been submitted. I was worried about it and wondered how to correct it. Well known 2A attorney told me not to worry about it.
 
alx said:
If you think that $600 gun and the cost of classes and licensing is overwhelming - we agree to disagree. Money are not what they used to be and if such a sum is problematic for you- I hate to tell you but you have other bigger (and more existential) issues. No, I am not being elitist- just observing how folks live and what they spend their money on.

The posture of an individual on a subject is a ratio of (perceived) direct personal impact vs. community impact/ principle. That ratio is different for different folks. In my previous messages I have shown the personal impact on me (very small). Now lets talk about the other number of the ratio- my take on the public impact. I am doing all I can to slow down the erosion of our rights - I am a heavy donor to GOAL and COMM2A and I have called and written to my local representatives. I have trained countless number of new gun owners on how to leave the range with the same number of holes they got in with and how to be responsible owners. I am a certified USPSA official and I actively volunteer at matches (btw, Area 7 registration for 2024 is open- do sign up!!!). So yeah- I am doing my part. So see? looks can be deceiving. There are a few folks here that know me in real life and they know I am prolly the opposite of a fudd guy :)

BUT

That does not change what is coming. Lets be real. No amount of donating, calling, writing or picketing the Hill will change that. The only way we can win this in the great state of MA is through protracted and expensive litigation. And to flame me for for that statement and if anybody thinks otherwise is just a sign of having unrealistic expectations.

How this is going to go is we will buy all the guns we want/ can before Aug 1st or whatever date it is and then we will fight this in court for many years in hopes that we reverse the bill. This is how it will go if you choose to be a law- abiding citizen. Be realistic.

My 2 cents
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alx said:
Oh, agreed. I am not saying that the handgun roster is good although to be honest as long as the competition pistols are allowed having a pistol roster really only bothers me on 2A principle .
My observation was towards the poster that said Glocks will be (again) unobtainable to which I mused that Glocks are on the roster and most likely not going anywhere. That is all.

On a separate note - A sub-$300 pistol? Why on Earth would you want to subject yourself to such? :p
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No offense but for someone who’s been a NES member for 11 years and is active in the action shooting sports, you’re really ignorant of how stuff works here in MA.
Also it seems you’re most likely ignorant of what is currently going on with USPSA if you’re recommending people register for the Area 7 match. You can see the discussions about that in this thread and respond there, so we don’t derail this thread
https://www.northeastshooters.com/x...e-85-what’s-going-on-with-uspsa.457327/page-2
 
FisherTech said:
Folks, I unassed that state almost 19 years ago and retired from it 14 years ago yesterday. I know that you are going through a very trying event. My two cents is to push to have the cop carve out removed from the legislation.
Further, I have said this before and will say it again. When the police come to your club looking for a range or ranges to train and qualify on, ask if their chief belongs to MCOP Association, if yes. Sorry, go some where else. Not saying members of the dept can't be members just no dept training.
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Oh!......this will be my first sentence at the next meeting.

Are so and so PD a member of MCOPA? If so......we need to revoke their right to train here right here and right now!

They do not stand with us, we do not give them a place to shoot and tell them why.

Sending an email right now to put it on the agenda.
 
alx said:
If you think that $600 gun and the cost of classes and licensing is overwhelming - we agree to disagree. Money are not what they used to be and if such a sum is problematic for you- I hate to tell you but you have other bigger (and more existential) issues. No, I am not being elitist- just observing how folks live and what they spend their money on.

The posture of an individual on a subject is a ratio of (perceived) direct personal impact vs. community impact/ principle. That ratio is different for different folks. In my previous messages I have shown the personal impact on me (very small). Now lets talk about the other number of the ratio- my take on the public impact. I am doing all I can to slow down the erosion of our rights - I am a heavy donor to GOAL and COMM2A and I have called and written to my local representatives. I have trained countless number of new gun owners on how to leave the range with the same number of holes they got in with and how to be responsible owners. I am a certified USPSA official and I actively volunteer at matches (btw, Area 7 registration for 2024 is open- do sign up!!!). So yeah- I am doing my part. So see? looks can be deceiving. There are a few folks here that know me in real life and they know I am prolly the opposite of a fudd guy :)

BUT

That does not change what is coming. Lets be real. No amount of donating, calling, writing or picketing the Hill will change that. The only way we can win this in the great state of MA is through protracted and expensive litigation. And to flame me for for that statement and if anybody thinks otherwise is just a sign of having unrealistic expectations.

How this is going to go is we will buy all the guns we want/ can before Aug 1st or whatever date it is and then we will fight this in court for many years in hopes that we reverse the bill. This is how it will go if you choose to be a law- abiding citizen. Be realistic.

My 2 cents
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Let me see,

First off, it was a $300.00 gun you were looking down your nose at, not $600.00. Secondly, yes, to some it does get a little overwhelming not only out of pocket but the time to jump thru the hoops and/or lose the monies to do so. Thirdly, I didn't say it was a hardship for me personally as it's you making a presumption. Fourthly, you are coming off as an elitist if you would read what you write before posting. Finally, I'm glad that you have an observation station so as not to have to get down with the rabble and all. That's the first two sentences out of the way, whew.

Sorry, the next paragraph is a little to, shall I say, intimidating at best or in other words, wtf did I just read? I'll extract what I think are the highlights. You donate to Comm2A and GOAL, take the time to do volunteer work involving the 2A community, bring new people into the fold and have been writing your representatives. Yes? If so, that's good as you're now amongst the majority here.

The final sections, yes, no, maybe. Will we kill it entirely, no but we may have an impact to lessen the severity by trying. Will it end up in the courts, yes and probably for years if similar cases that have been running for that long are not taken up by the USSC soon.
 
alx said:
If you think that $600 gun and the cost of classes and licensing is overwhelming - we agree to disagree. Money are not what they used to be and if such a sum is problematic for you- I hate to tell you but you have other bigger (and more existential) issues. No, I am not being elitist- just observing how folks live and what they spend their money on.
…
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Having a firearm to protect one’s family is a significant issue. According to Maslow, it’s relevant to the second need from the bottom. It’s categorized as a basic need.

Either you’ve never struggled or you’ve forgotten what it’s like to struggle. But people shouldn’t be prevented from having the means to protect their families because of government mandated fees. If they can’t afford the couple hundred dollars for the firearm and box of ammo? That’s a different story, as that’s just the cost of the product. But the government then adds on another couple hundred dollars and time away from their job. Yes, you’re sounding elitist.

IMG_9147.jpeg
 
Taipan01 said:
Let me see,

First off, it was a $300.00 gun you were looking down your nose at, not $600.00.
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I said $600 because that is what the cheapest handgun you can buy in MA legally roughly costs... and if $600 plus training plus fees plus whatever is too much then that person has bigger problems to solve... The median household income in MA is just about $93.5k/ year. If we were in Mississippi ($45k) this would be a different conversation I believe.

And when I say "you" I dont meant you in particular. I generally avoid judging people on a personal basis so "you" might as well be replaced by "a person". I am prolly the last person that would judge anybody as it is none of my business- thus I look how things affect -me- and then how they affect the society/others... and from what I see anybody that is not setup like that is pretty much pretending.
 
alx said:
I said $600 because that is what the cheapest handgun you can buy in MA legally roughly costs... and if $600 plus training plus fees plus whatever is too much then that person has bigger problems to solve... The median household income in MA is just about $93.5k/ year.

And when I say "you" I dont meant you in particular. I generally avoid judging people on a personal basis so "you" might as well be replaced by "a person". I am prolly the last person that would judge anybody as it is none of my business- thus I look how things affect -me- and then how they affect the society/others... and from what I see anybody that is not setup like that is pretty much pretending.
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I read everything you write in an AI voice.
 
alx said:
I said $600 because that is what the cheapest handgun you can buy in MA legally roughly costs... and if $600 plus training plus fees plus whatever is too much then that person has bigger problems to solve... The median household income in MA is just about $93.5k/ year. If we were in Mississippi ($45k) this would be a different conversation I believe.

…
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So only median income households should have the tools to defend themselves?

You can buy much cheaper firearms in Massachusetts. Cheaper used handguns, and also cheaper rifles and shotguns. Right now, Four Seasons has a used Keltec 9mm pistol for $250. But there are cheaper deals out there too with face to face sales from places like NES. Hell, someone could have a family friend sell a pistol to them for $50 because they know things are tight.

But there’s no reducing the $200 of government mandated fees and potentially time away from work to exercise a constitutionally protected civil right. That’s the heart of the matter here. Not that you think people should be able to afford $600 guns because MA has a higher median income.
 
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