Maryland AWB case Snope v Brown going to SCOTUS. (Formerly Bianchi v Brown & Bianchi v Frosh)

[Palladin]

If MG's have been regulated since 1986, how did the number in civilian possession get to 740,000 in the past 9 yrs?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If MG's have been regulated since 1986, how did the number in civilian possession get to 740,000 in the past 9 yrs?

They wer regulated since NFA 34; 1986 was the freeze on new civilian transferrable MGs and removal of the "Transfer to FFL owner when retiring" legality of post-1986 dealer samples.

The number of civilian possession, outside of dealers to LEO with hens teeth (demo request letters) and 07 manufacturers w/SOT, did not increase since 1986.

But then you knew that

 

[Mesatchornug]

But the measurement isn’t if silencers were in common use then.

Right. See: Caetano

It’s if there were any analogous laws banning firearm attachments. Pretty sure there weren’t.

Moreover, Miller would ask us if it's useful in militia service. The increasing use by all branches, including proposals to put them on the rifle of every Marine (IIRC?) would seem to imply yes.

[Edit - swypos]

 

[T-Unit]

Defining silencers as non-firearms is actually the first step to getting them off the NFA.

If they're not arms they have no constitutional protection.

 

[Joeldiaz]

If MG's have been regulated since 1986, how did the number in civilian possession get to 740,000 in the past 9 yrs?

It didn’t. There’s really only about 170,000 in civilian possession. The rest of that 700k belong to PDs & FFLs

Edit:

Here’s the proof for anyone who doubts what I just said, The ATF’s 2021 annual statistical update says on page 16 that there are 741,146 machine guns registered with the federal government under the NFA. A 2016 case out of CA5 called Hollis v. Lynch (PDF warning) looked at another ATF report provided by the plaintiff. The court said that “there are 175,977 pre-1986 civilian-owned machineguns in existence.”

 

[1sern]

TIL FFL's and police aren't civilians

oh wait:

FindLaw Legal Dictionary
The FindLaw Legal Dictionary -- free access to over 8260 definitions of legal terms. Search for a definition or browse our legal glossaries.
term:

Civilian​

civilian n

: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

: private citizen, as distinguished from a person belonging to the armed services.

adj : of or relating to civil law as distinguished from common law

 

[Mesatchornug]

If they're not arms they have no constitutional protection.

They can be protected arms without being firearms.

See: Caetano

 

[Joeldiaz]

TIL FFL's and police aren't civilians

oh wait:

FindLaw Legal Dictionary
The FindLaw Legal Dictionary -- free access to over 8260 definitions of legal terms. Search for a definition or browse our legal glossaries.
term:

Civilian​

civilian n

: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

: private citizen, as distinguished from a person belonging to the armed services.

adj : of or relating to civil law as distinguished from common law

You can post the dictionary definition of the world “civilian” all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that the 5th Circuit (arguably the most pro-2A circuit in the country) went out of their way to distinguish FFLs and PDs from regular everyday citizens.

 

[PappyM3]

You can post the dictionary definition of the world “civilian” all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that the 5th Circuit (arguably the most pro-2A circuit in the country) went out of their way to distinguish FFLs and PDs from regular everyday citizens.

But they are still civilians. No matter how much police like to talk like they’re not “lowly” civilians, they still are civilians.

And the more we, collectively, talk about them just being civilians, the more it sticks in people’s minds and maybe EVENTUALLY, way after I’m dead, my descendants can live in a country where there isn’t a separate class of civilian who is subject to different laws. Maybe, just maybe if it’s reinforced long enough, the 14th amendment and equal protections under the law will be real.

 

[BarnBuilder]

or to Hiram Maxim, who only invented them.

Teddy Roosevelt's Winchester Model 94 with a Maxim Suppressor. Tr called it "My Little 30"

 

[Dench]

If they're not arms they have no constitutional protection.

Neither is a rifle barrel but it helps make the gun work.

Banning parts of guns is essentially the same thing as banning guns.

 

[CrackPot]

They wer regulated since NFA 34; 1986 was the freeze on new civilian transferrable MGs and removal of the "Transfer to FFL owner when retiring" legality of post-1986 dealer samples.

The number of civilian possession, outside of dealers to LEO with hens teeth (demo request letters) and 07 manufacturers w/SOT, did not increase since 1986.

But then you knew that

So actually there have been an increase in the number of registered and transferable machine guns since 1986. Recently the ATF "decided" that under a set of circumstances, machine guns in the possession of police departments that are pre86 and had been with the police for a minimum number of years, CAN be added to the registry of transferable machine guns.

Another path to civilian possession (not registered and transferable, but lawful possession) is a FFL/SOT sole proprietor with a pre-sample going out of business and being allowed to keep the pre-sample once their FFL/SOT is gone. They can only transfer/sell to a SOT (or their executor can only transfer/sell to a SOT) but for their lifetime, they can possess the pre-sample lawfully.

So a lot of pre-samples make their rounds into SOT hands who then give up license and have a toy until they die or get tired of it. It then goes through the same path to find a new home. pre-samples seem to go for around 50% of a fully transferable price since they are 1/2 as fun...

 

[Coyote33]

TIL FFL's and police aren't civilians
oh wait:
FindLaw Legal Dictionary
The FindLaw Legal Dictionary -- free access to over 8260 definitions of legal terms. Search for a definition or browse our legal glossaries.
term:

Civilian​

civilian n
: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
: private citizen, as distinguished from a person belonging to the armed services.
adj : of or relating to civil law as distinguished from common law

You can post the dictionary definition of the world “civilian” all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that the 5th Circuit (arguably the most pro-2A circuit in the country) went out of their way to distinguish FFLs and PDs from regular everyday citizens.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/DF2v_kdq0WV/

 

[VTski4x4]

Pray for some good news today!

 

[kingson]

Pray for some good news today!

The next conference is Feb 21st so no new about it until next week or the week after

 

[T-Unit]

The next conference is Feb 21st so no new about it until next week or the week after

If we don't get a denial or a cert grant, then it becomes obvious that Scotus is politicizing the case. In fact, I wouldn't doubt it if the reason Scotus has granted so few certs on major 2A cases is because their USAID money prevented them from doing so.

 

[VTski4x4]

The next conference is Feb 21st so no new about it until next week or the week after

Relist today for the 21st - so I guess you're correct - no "good news" is coming, but hopefully it gets relisted.

 

[sbhaven]

Snope and Ocean State distributed to SCOTUS's Feb 21st conference.

DISTRIBUTED for Conference of 2/21/2025.

As a reminder from the SCOTUS calendar for Feb 21st:

The Court will release an order list at 9:30 a.m. on Monday, February 24.

ETA: Snope: Docket for 24-203
Ocean State Tactical: Docket for 24-131

 

[VTski4x4]

Now we get to anxiously wait some more to see if they are going to sack up or not.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

If the cases are granted cert for next year’s term then between now and then the anti groups will be launching a major millionaire funded influence campaign. If I was a conspiracy believer type I might be looking for a false flag attack as well.

 

[1sern]

May not be appropriate for this thread but just got this notice.:

SAF SUES MASSACHUSETTS OVER GUN BAN FOR YOUNG ADULTS​ ​

BELLEVUE, WA – Feb. 14, 2024 – The Second Amendment Foundation has filed a lawsuit in federal court challenging a Massachusetts statute which bans young adults in the 18-to-20 age group from acquiring, possessing, or carrying any semiautomatic firearm of any type or any handgun. The case is known as Escher v. Mason. Joining SAF are the National Rifle Association, Gun Owners Action League, Commonwealth Second Amendment, Firearms Policy Coalition and a private citizen, Mack Escher, for whom the case is named. They are represented by attorneys Jason Guida with a law office in Saugus, Mass., and David H. Thompson, Peter A. Patterson and William V. Bergstrom at Cooper & Kirk in Washington, DC. The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts. ​

[td]  ​

​

[/td]

HELP SUPPORT OUR LEGAL WORK!​ ​ ​

[td]  ​

​

[/td]

Named as defendants are Col. Christopher Mason, superintendent of the Massachusetts State Police, and Heath J. Eldredge, chief of police in Brewster, Mass., in their official capacities. Plaintiffs are challenging provisions of Massachusetts law enacted with passage of H.B. 4885, signed in July 2024 by Gov. Maura Healey. “Massachusetts’s law barring 18-20-year-olds from being able to acquire, possess, and carry commonly possessed firearms fails to comport with the Constitution’s command,” said SAF Executive Director Adam Kraut. “These adult individuals are entitled to the full scope of the Second Amendment’s protections, yet the State has opted to affirmatively treat them as if they have less rights. An honest look at our nation’s history and tradition will only yield one result, that is, this law is blatantly unconstitutional.” “Federal law allows for legal action against states that deprive individuals of federal constitutional rights under color of state law,” explained SAF founder and Executive Vice President Alan M. Gottlieb. “State legislatures that adopt such restrictive laws invariably mask their motives by claiming they are ‘gun safety’ measures, but this isn’t about guns, it’s about rights. It’s time for anti-gun officials in Massachusetts and elsewhere to understand that.” ​

​

 

[T-Unit]

If the cases are granted cert for next year’s term then between now and then the anti groups will be launching a major millionaire funded influence campaign. If I was a conspiracy believer type I might be looking for a false flag attack as well.

They can't, the USAID money dried up.

 

[lutstribe]

george soros to usaid to etc. to bad executive branch cant shut down departments without congress. he should be able bc of the fact its his cabinet.

 

[lutstribe]

if we dismantle discretionary spending we can get back proper society hhs is 1.6 t budget

 

[sbhaven]

May not be appropriate for this thread but just got this notice.:

​

Its a bit off topic since it doesn't deal with Snope (MD AWB) or Ocean State Tactical (RI mag ban) at SCOTUS. Another thread was started about the MA firearm purchase age challenge:

Thread 'Comm2A joins with other groups to challenge semi-auto ban'

Feb 14, 2025

Breaking News:

Comm2A joins with Gun Owners Action League, Firearms Policy Coalition, Second Amendment Foundation, The National Rifle Association of America, and Gun Owners of America to file a challenge to the laws prohibiting 18-20 year olds from possession, purchase, and carry of semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and all handguns.

Escher v. Mason - Commonwealth Second Amendment

42 U.S.C. § 1983 Civil Rights Complaint against the Massachusetts prohibition on 18-20 year olds possessing, purchasing, and carrying semi-automatic firearms. United States District Court — District of Massachusetts (Boston) Filed: February 14th, 2025 Status: Initial Filing At issue is...

comm2a.org

42 U.S.C. § 1983 Civil Rights Complaint against the Massachusetts prohibition on 18-20 year olds possessing, purchasing, and carrying semi-automatic firearms.

United States District Court — District of...​

• Comm2A
• Replies: 35
• Forum: General Discussion

• 
• 
• 

 

[1sern]

Its a bit off topic since it doesn't deal with Snope (MD AWB) or Ocean State Tactical (RI mag ban) at SCOTUS. Another thread was started about the MA firearm purchase age challenge:

Thread 'Comm2A joins with other groups to challenge semi-auto ban'

Feb 14, 2025

Breaking News:

Comm2A joins with Gun Owners Action League, Firearms Policy Coalition, Second Amendment Foundation, The National Rifle Association of America, and Gun Owners of America to file a challenge to the laws prohibiting 18-20 year olds from possession, purchase, and carry of semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and all handguns.

Escher v. Mason - Commonwealth Second Amendment

42 U.S.C. § 1983 Civil Rights Complaint against the Massachusetts prohibition on 18-20 year olds possessing, purchasing, and carrying semi-automatic firearms. United States District Court — District of Massachusetts (Boston) Filed: February 14th, 2025 Status: Initial Filing At issue is...

comm2a.org

42 U.S.C. § 1983 Civil Rights Complaint against the Massachusetts prohibition on 18-20 year olds possessing, purchasing, and carrying semi-automatic firearms.

United States District Court — District of...​

• Comm2A
• Replies: 35
• Forum: General Discussion

• 
• 
• 

Well yeah, but that thread didn't exist until an hour after I made the post above.

 

[sbhaven]

Well yeah, but that thread didn't exist until an hour after I made the post above.

Right, because someone started a new thread to inform and discuss that specific case...

 

[Redsox802]

 

[DarthRevan]

Tempered excitement.

 

[VTski4x4]

Popping this back up - today's the 21st - hopefully something good happens.