Obtaining an FFL in MA?

one-eyed Jack said:
Well, you can have all the fun stuff. Suppressors in Mass,you can convert ARs to M4s on the cheap, all the standard capacity mags you want, you can saw down rifles and shotguns and so on. Jack.
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With all due respect to the one eyed oracle, this is only partially correct:

MGL does provide an exemption for federally licensed manufacturers of cans.

The exemption for standard capacity mags and AWs is based on the holding of a MA dealer's license, not an FFL.

I welcome corrections. If someone can show me where in MGL an FFL without a MA dealer's license is AW ban exempt, I'll get started on my application.
 
There is a guy on gunbrokers that has an FFL in MA. But from what I can tell he does not have a MA. license.
 
PATRON said:
There is a guy on gunbrokers that has an FFL in MA. But from what I can tell he does not have a MA. license.
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Don't know who you are referring to, but a buddy of mine has a FFL out of his house and No MA Dealer's license. He only sells over the internet and he's a full time police officer as well.
 
Len-2A Training said:
Don't know who you are referring to, but a buddy of mine has a FFL out of his house and No MA Dealer's license. He only sells over the internet and he's a full time police officer as well.
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Len - can you confirm or deny my conclusion that a MA dealer's license, and not an FFL, triggers exemption from the MA AWB?
 
Rob Boudrie said:
You can get an FFL for your home address, but cannot get a MA dealer's license.

The BATFE does not issue FFLs to support hobbies, but for business purposes. You may be able to get a home FFL if you can come up with a viable business plan that does not involve any consumer sales and is consistent with local zoning regulations.

If you sell via Gunbroker.com, you will have shipping and transfer fees but will not have to pat a shop a consignment fee (18% at Four Seasons, 20% at B&K). Or, you can sell individually (limit 4 on personal transfer per calendar year), and pay a shop to do the transfer after you hit that limit.
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If he sells via gunbroker , he can sell more than 4 per year anyway, as long as they go out of state.

One huge factor is that an FFL can ship a handgun USPS flat rate box for about $15. Whereas a non FFL must use FedEx or UPS next day or 2nd day, I can't remember which, for $50 to $80.
 
PATRON said:
There is a guy on gunbrokers that has an FFL in MA. But from what I can tell he does not have a MA. license.
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There are lots of FFLs in MA that don't have state licenses. The only effective restriction on sales is that he can't do face to fact transfers. He needs to run all sales through another dealer that also has a state license.

This means the lack of a MA license does not affect his ability to sell on GB since all interstate sales need to go to another FFL anyway.

One nice thing about having an 07 with a SOT is that you can sell silencers interstate, which is the only way you want to sell silencers.

Why? Because an interstate sale involves a Form 3 transfer to another dealer which takes 6 weeks. After that you are done.

Then the local dealer has to deal with the guy who is payng him $75 for the transfer calling him every month for the next year asking if the form 4 is done.

The selling dealer makes $400 and is done in 2 months. The receiving dealer makes $75 and has to hold onto a can for 12 months and listen to the customer complain.
 
There are lots of FFLs in MA that don't have state licenses. The only effective restriction on sales is that he can't do face to fact transfers.
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Such an FFL can do 4 per calendar year without a MA dealer's license, and is not constrained by the AGs CMR as such an FFL does not meet the CMR's definition of "purveyor of firearms".

So, if you are short of friends and want to make four, get an FFL.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Such an FFL can do 4 per calendar year without a MA dealer's license, and is not constrained by the AGs CMR as such an FFL does not meet the CMR's definition of "purveyor of firearms".

So, if you are short of friends and want to make four, get an FFL.
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The FFL cannot do 4 per year. The individual can do 4 per year. While they are the same person, it is not the same thing.

A gun owned by the individual can be sold face to face with an eFA10 up to the limit of 4 per year.

A gun acquired by the FFL is in the FFLs bound book and owned by the FFL/business (even if a sole proprietorship). To get it out of the bound book to an individual in MA requires a dealer's license. If you move the gun to yourself, you still need a MA dealer's license. You are still subject to MA laws so you cant just transfer off list handguns from your FFL to you as an individual. No loop hole here.

And then there is the ATF view on this. Moving a gun from the bound book to you as an individual and then to someone else as a face to face transfer is seen as a technique to avoid a federal background check. This is heavily frowned on. The guidance is that you most hold the firearm for one year as an individual before you can perform a face to face to dispose of the gun.

So yes, a person who is an FFL can still do 4 face to face transfers in state to an individual, but they do it as an individual with guns they own, not that are in the FFL bound book; and there is no easy path from the bound book to the individual.
 
dcmdon said:
There are lots of FFLs in MA that don't have state licenses. The only effective restriction on sales is that he can't do face to fact transfers. He needs to run all sales through another dealer that also has a state license.
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I know what you say is true but find it interesting since question 27 on the FFL application requires that you certify 5 statements, two of which are


  • Within 30 days after the application is approved, the business will comply with the requirements of State and local law applicable tot he conduct of business.
  • Business will not be conducted under the license until the requirements of State and local law applicable to the business have been met.

Now getting a business license is one thing you must do, but arguably getting a MA Dealer's license is another. Clearly they are taking the view that they are not conducting business in MA as a dealer in MA so they do not require a MA dealer's license per the above statements. This is not a line I would want to walk.
 
CrackPot said:
I know what you say is true but find it interesting since question 27 on the FFL application requires that you certify 5 statements, two of which are


  • Within 30 days after the application is approved, the business will comply with the requirements of State and local law applicable tot he conduct of business.
  • Business will not be conducted under the license until the requirements of State and local law applicable to the business have been met.

Now getting a business license is one thing you must do, but arguably getting a MA Dealer's license is another. Clearly they are taking the view that they are not conducting business in MA as a dealer in MA so they do not require a MA dealer's license per the above statements. This is not a line I would want to walk.
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I think in recent years that the BATFE has realized that there are many, many people strictly doing business over the internet and thus relaxed their position on the above. Anyone can conduct an internet-exclusive business from their home, zoning is not an issue in those cases, so legal. Getting a business license does not require that you meet commercial zoning requirements if this is all that you are doing. And MA ONLY requires business licenses for "alias" business names where you could not otherwise who the principal party is. I run a business from my home (no clients ever come here) and do not have a business license because my business name is my name, and yes the town clerk and police department knows it and actually refers people to me for service of court papers.
 
drgrant said:
Do you know offhand if they do Business LTCs? In that case sloooow is still way better than noooooo. lol

-Mike
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Years ago we had a REAL COP. Very helpful. Also a great IA. My boss, the owner of this mill lives in Boston, did not want to go thru that shit and had no problem getting his LTC in Littleton. That's the only one I know of. Probably more back then. Don't know about now. Jack.
 
  • Within 30 days after the application is approved, the business will comply with the requirements of State and local law applicable tot he conduct of business.
  • Business will not be conducted under the license until the requirements of State and local law applicable to the business have been met.
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There is no MA law against doing business as an FFL without a state dealer's license. The dealer's license is required to sell to non-federal licensees.

The BATFE has taken the position that persons working for gun companies as consultants, photographers or gunwriters on a volunteer or 1099 basis may no longer receive guns without an FFL, as this is now limited to W2 employees. The BATFE ruling on this subject further states that consultants or volunteers doing this must obtain an FFL for that purpose. This ruling strongly implies that consultancy can be the basis for an FFL, even if it does not involve the intent to sell guns for a profit.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
With all due respect to the one eyed oracle, this is only partially correct:

MGL does provide an exemption for federally licensed manufacturers of cans.

The exemption for standard capacity mags and AWs is based on the holding of a MA dealer's license, not an FFL.

I welcome corrections. If someone can show me where in MGL an FFL without a MA dealer's license is AW ban exempt, I'll get started on my application.
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07FFL/SOT. I can have and even make all the standard capacity mags I want. Jack.
 
one-eyed Jack said:
07FFL/SOT. I can have and even make all the standard capacity mags I want. Jack.
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Can you please provide a cite to the exemption in MGL for 07/SOTs? The way I read it, the exemption for the AW ban is triggered by a state dealer's license, but the silencer ban is triggered by the 07.
 
When I lived in CT, I was an FFL out of my home and did a decent amount of retail business with students, friends and friends of friends.

When I had my interview with the ATF we talked about Internet only FFLs, the inspector mentioned "kitchen table" dealers who do 150 guns per month over the internet.

She was fully aware that you can have a profitable active business in firearms and never hang out a shingle or keep business hours.

For people like me and the internet vendors, the need to list business hours on the Form 7 (application for a FFL) is solely so that the ATF can do a compliance inspection without notice during those hours. They required me to list at least one hour on the application.

So I chose Thursday at 7:00 PM since it was a time when I was most likely to be home.

Don
 
Rob Boudrie said:
There is no MA law against doing business as an FFL without a state dealer's license. The dealer's license is required to sell to non-federal licensees.

The BATFE has taken the position that persons working for gun companies as consultants, photographers or gunwriters on a volunteer or 1099 basis may no longer receive guns without an FFL, as this is now limited to W2 employees. The BATFE ruling on this subject further states that consultants or volunteers doing this must obtain an FFL for that purpose. This ruling strongly implies that consultancy can be the basis for an FFL, even if it does not involve the intent to sell guns for a profit.
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The ATF keeps shooting themselves in the foot. Its that whole unintended consequences thing. Every time they come up with a new reason that someone must be a FFL, they end up expanding the list of reasons that they MUST issue you a license.

The ATF Form 7 used to ask something like "Do you sell firearms exclusively at gun shows, If you answer yes, you do not need a FFL".

I knew plenty of people who sold at shows who WANTED an FFL, but the ATF wouldnt' give them one. With Obama's new "gun show loop hole guidance", all these people can now get the FFL they always wanted. Having to do a NICS check and complete a 4473 is no big deal to them.

To a CT resident, a FFL gets them around all of the magazine and AW restrictions.

To a MA resident it gets you legal silencers.

To anyone it gets you the ability to ship a handgun via USPS flat rate box for $13 as well at the ability to move NFA items around without having to file a 5320.

Not a bad deal for $150 for 3 years for an 07.

Don
 
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