Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

[pastera]

Is there any reason to use a series?

e.g.: FUMA1776, FA10D498133, thereoncewasamanfromnantucketwhohadadickthesizeofabucket, LOLMALAWS,

No, but if you make a bunch it makes it a little easier
Also - there's only so much space even at 1/16 height of character.

 

[pastera]

any reason we cant all use the same SN?

FU-01 (02, 03 etc) for consecutive personal builds)?

This way we have a few thousand of the same SN

They would have different manufacturers so serials can overlap

 

[pastera]

You’re too hung up on words and feelings rather than law. Show me the Ma law where there is gun registration.

Not words and feelings - General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 128B

Whoever violates any provision of this section shall for the first offense be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000 and for any subsequent offense by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than ten years.

So while the onus isn't always on the possessor, a ten year stay at the grey bar isn't just feelings

 

[milktree]

Not words and feelings - General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 128B



So while the onus isn't always on the possessor, a ten year stay at the grey bar isn't just feelings

He’s not talking about the penalties, he’s talking about the fact that there’s nothing in current law (FA10 system of transaction reporting) that says the state’s database has to match what you possess.

 

[pastera]

He’s not talking about the penalties, he’s talking about the fact that there’s nothing in current law (FA10 system of transaction reporting) that says the state’s database has to match what you possess.

True
But if your acquisition method requires reporting, your screwed if you don't and get caught

 

[milktree]

They would have different manufacturers so serials can overlap

What are the requirements for manufacturer engraving on a not-gun by federal law? We don’t know what the state is going to require for that.

i.e. : can we put “Healey Firearms Co.” for a manufacturer?

 

[DJBrad]

Not words and feelings - General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 128B



So while the onus isn't always on the possessor, a ten year stay at the grey bar isn't just feelings

That’s a transaction brother.

 

[pastera]

What are the requirements for manufacturer engraving on a not-gun by federal law? We don’t know what the state is going to require for that.

i.e. : can we put “Healey Firearms Co.” for a manufacturer?

If it remains a paperweight? Do as you please
If you plan on finishing, it must follow federal regulations

 

[DJBrad]

What are the requirements for manufacturer engraving on a not-gun by federal law? We don’t know what the state is going to require for that.

i.e. : can we put “Healey Firearms Co.” for a manufacturer?

Great name for a manufacturer.

 

[milktree]

True
But if your acquisition method requires reporting, your screwed if you don't and get caught

Right. But if you did everything right according to law as written – report in writing – and the state neglected or refused to enter the info into the database, that’s not your responsibility to fix. You followed all the requirements.

 

[milktree]

If it remains a paperweight? Do as you please
If you plan on finishing, it must follow federal regulations

Federal regulations do not require you serialize at all. Only FFLs are required to serialize.

The requirement to serialize home made firearms and 80% frames that haven’t been finished is purely a Massachusetts requirement.

 

[pastera]

That’s a transaction brother.

Again - call it what you want
The whole Romeo and Juliette thing
A transaction would simply record that a firearm was transferred.
If you include details on that firearm in a database searchable on those details, it's a registry.
Might not be a perfect registry but it is a registry.

 

[pastera]

Right. But if you did everything right according to law as written – report in writing – and the state neglected or refused to enter the info into the database, that’s not your responsibility to fix. You followed all the requirements.

Concur - if you have admissible evidence that you attempted to comply but the state refused your valid submission then you are fine
Well, except for the tens of $k that you spent proving your innocence.

 

[DJBrad]

Again - call it what you want
The whole Romeo and Juliette thing
A transaction would simply record that a firearm was transferred.
If you include details on that firearm in a database searchable on those details, it's a registry.
Might not be a perfect registry but it is a registry.

My original post stands firm. It’s not a registry and based on the new law’s language it proves it has no legal standing at all. You do understand that if it was so you would see something regarding EFA10 referenced in H.4885 and lo, it is not.

 

[Len-2A Training]

You’re too hung up on words and feelings rather than law. Show me the Ma law where there is gun registration.

There is a saying which is applicable here:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck . . . chances are pretty good that it is a duck!!

 

[pastera]

My original post stands firm. It’s not a registry and based on the new law’s language it proves it has no legal standing at all. You do understand that if it was so you would see something regarding EFA10 referenced in H.4885 and lo, it is not.

Yeah, have at it
Read the definition of Assault-style firearm and the exemption text where it reads registered.
Now that word has no meaning by your interpretation.
But SCOTUS requires courts to read meaning into every part of a law's text.
And if that meaning is ambiguous, then the court is to look at legislative intent, which the legislature was very clear that they meant the current FA-10 system when they wrote it.

 

[DJBrad]

Yeah, have at it
Read the definition of Assault-style firearm and the exemption text where it reads registered.
Now that word has no meaning by your interpretation.
But SCOTUS requires courts to read meaning into every part of a law's text.
And if that meaning is ambiguous, then the court is to look at legislative intent, which the legislature was very clear that they meant the current FA-10 system when they wrote it.

Let’s hope it goes to SCOTUS.

Registered can mean a dealer’s book or a 4473. But yeah, we need this law to get torn apart by the courts.

 

[DJBrad]

There is a saying which is applicable here:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck . . . chances are pretty good that it is a duck!!

Duck, duck, goose.

 

[LuvDog]

There is no registration in Ma. Only transactions. If you built it you have 7 days to report it. How would the state know?

After 10/23 there is no EFA10. It is unknown how one would “register” anything since there is no existing system in place since the new law gives 1 year from 10/23/24 for the state to create it. The option to choose your own is so you don’t have to wait for the system to go live and produce a serial number for you (which requires more info on type and production of the firearm). Will they deny the serial number based on those factors??? Who knows.

If an 80% you can serialize it before 10/23 or don’t do a thing as it is……..an 80%.

If you serialize an 80 now, I don’t believe there’s any requirement to record that. It can’t fire a shot and does not meet the definition of a firearm.

Don't get too hung up on Oct. 23 in this context. You have a year from when the new database comes online to register stuff. There's literally no way for the state to know when you engrave the serial number. Yes, pick anything you want that's A-Z, 0-9. I believe you cannot use any special characters (&%!@#$, etc.) or any non Latin alphabet characters. You can use spaces and dashes on the engraving, but they're not part of the serial number. But for sure A-Z, 0-9 is safe.

I don't know if we'll be required to engrave a model and manufacturer and caliber with the serial number, or if a serial number is good enough. Perhaps @pastera or @CrackPot will have some insight.



You don't. Unless you want to eFA10 it, but why bother? The eFA10 system will be gone in a couple months.

Funny thing: The actual current law as written does not allow for "registration" using the eFA10 system. It explicitly says, "in writing", unlike the sale part of the law where it explicitly says, "online portal"

This is all kind of my point... and yes, it's an 80% so why serialize it anyway since... well you know.

But hypothetically. If I didn't want whatever stupid format the state is going to come up with and wanted to choose my own.

How would they expect for that the be recorded before October? it's still not capable of firing a shot, so it shouldn't be FA10'd. Plus that's not a registry of builds and is supposed to just be a registry of transactions.

How would the state ever prove that you did or didn't serialize the lower before their arbitrary cutoff date?

So whenever the new system is up, are they going to allow you to enter any S/N and back date to when it was created?

 

[CrackPot]

How de we get a/the State S/N on 10/23?

I'm SURE they will not have that in place...

From the Act

SECTION 154. Not later than 6 months after the effective date of this act, the executive office of public safety and security shall notify all individuals with licenses to carry and firearm identification cards valid on the effective date of this act of the requirements under section 121B and 121C of chapter 140 of the General Laws, as inserted by section 32.

SECTION 155.

(b) Not later than 6 months after the effective date of this act, the executive office of public safety and security, in consultation with the department of criminal justice information services, shall promulgate regulations required by section 121C of said chapter 140, as inserted by section 32.

SECTION 158. The department of criminal justice information services shall establish the serial number request system established pursuant to section 121C of chapter 140 of the General Laws, as inserted by section 32, not later than 1 year after the effective date of this act; provided, that all firearms shall be serialized in accordance with this act and not later than 1 year after said serial number request system is completed and publicly available.

So like registration, they have one year to implement a system and you have one year after that to come into compliance with it

 

[CrackPot]

So whenever the new system is up, are they going to allow you to enter any S/N and back date to when it was created?

What problem are you trying to solve? See my previous post. You are not out of compliance with the new law for as much as TWO YEARS after it takes effect. You cannot register anything until 121B is implemented and that is up to a year after the effective date. You cannot request a serial number from the state for up to a year after the effective date.

Don't over think it. WHEN the new 121C (serial number request) system comes online, IF you still have anything w/o a serial number, request one within a year. Otherwise, WHEN the new 121B (registration) system comes online, register everything you own within one year.

There are no serial number police. Until we reach approximately 10/23/26 we are not at a steady state where everything is serialized and everything is registered. This assumes they can get their shit done within a year (I doubt it, no funding). Once we reach that day (notionally 10/23/26) you can start worrying if you have unregistered or unserialized guns.

 

[LuvDog]

What problem are you trying to solve?

Mostly just curious.

I run it through my head. If you were to serialize a lower now... but there is no system in place, then how would they know if you did it in time to make up your own? And if they don't, then what's the rush to do it.

 

[drgrant]

Not words and feelings - General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 128B



So while the onus isn't always on the possessor, a ten year stay at the grey bar isn't just feelings

Lol none of this matters. And will continue to not matter until they actually finish that stupid portal and the phase in expires. Then it might matter a tiny bit.

 

[pastera]

Let’s hope it goes to SCOTUS.

Registered can mean a dealer’s book or a 4473. But yeah, we need this law to get torn apart by the courts.

This one isn't likely to hit SCOTUS
Too many other cases already in the pipe.
I could see a lot of the cases we file get stayed the moment Snope (Bianchi) gets cert (assuming it does).

 

[Rockrivr1]

This one isn't likely to hit SCOTUS
Too many other cases already in the pipe.
I could see a lot of the cases we file get stayed the moment Snope (Bianchi) gets cert (assuming it does).

I've said this before and I'll say it again. MA already does things that flies in the face of Bruen with no repercussions. Just look how Boston is doing with application processing. The SC has no power to enforce its rulings and when the Justice Department is on the side of gun grabbers there never will be enforcement. The SC can make rulings until they are blue in the face, but left leaning States will just ignore it and continue along their merry way. Pessimistic? Yeah probably. I hope that Bianchi gets to the SC and I hope the good guys win, but doubtful the State of MA will follow that directive.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

Sorry I thought I read this in one of the threads but can't find it.

Have we concluded that, as an unintended consequence, the weight limit for AR pistols becomes null with the definitions in the new law?

 

[VigilantesLiberi]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. MA already does things that flies in the face of Bruen with no repercussions. Just look how Boston is doing with application processing. The SC has no power to enforce its rulings and when the Justice Department is on the side of gun grabbers there never will be enforcement. The SC can make rulings until they are blue in the face, but left leaning States will just ignore it and continue along their merry way. Pessimistic? Yeah probably. I hope that Bianchi gets to the SC and I hope the good guys win, but doubtful the State of MA will follow that directive.

100% this. I hope everything works out and the SCOTUS rulings get taken seriously in MA, but like this guy is saying: they already ignore existing rulings. Lots of people think everything gets to SCOTUS by July and boom. Then what? MA lesbians bust into flames and melt?

 

[DJBrad]

[

Sorry I thought I read this in one of the threads but can't find it.

Have we concluded that, as an unintended consequence, the weight limit for AR pistols becomes null with the definitions in the new law?

50oz rule is doa on 10/23.

 

[pastera]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. MA already does things that flies in the face of Bruen with no repercussions. Just look how Boston is doing with application processing. The SC has no power to enforce its rulings and when the Justice Department is on the side of gun grabbers there never will be enforcement. The SC can make rulings until they are blue in the face, but left leaning States will just ignore it and continue along their merry way. Pessimistic? Yeah probably. I hope that Bianchi gets to the SC and I hope the good guys win, but doubtful the State of MA will follow that directive.

Have you read the Canjura opinion from the SJC?
It's 18 pages and a very straightforward implementation of Bruen.
And it's controlling for all Mass courts - they MUST use the process described (hey SCOTUS, how about writing a clear procedure like this one)
While it isn't perfect, it holds very true to Bruen and Heller.
So now we have two paths instead of just praying that a case in another circuit will save us.

Things will change - certain towns will push but they only get one bite at the infringement apple.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

50oz rule is doa on 10/23.

Thanks DJ.