Recommendations for Tactical / Home Defense 12 ga Shotgun Ammo?

Your body is made up of how much water? Yes! Absolutely hydrostatic shock.
That's... not how that works. You need velocity for hydrostatic shock - rifle velocity.

First, hydrostatic “shock” isn’t a thing. Please read the international wound ballistics papers, Dr. Fackler’s work, or Dr. Roberts who took over his work.

Yes, our tissues are mostly water, which is part of the reason for the temporary stretch cavities that occur when a bullet enters the body if it transfers energy *. In order for that to do any damage, you need to exceed the elastic limit of the tissue (different tissues have different limits). You need enough energy transfer to reach that limit, but you can decrease the limit with lacerations in the tissue (think from fragmentation).

* if a pointy bullet doesn’t destabilize, fragment, or expand, then it will ice pick straight through and not cause much of a temporary cavity at all.

Now, velocity absolutely helps when trying to have enough energy transfer to turn a temporary cavity into permanent tissue damage. It helps because it has a non-linear influence on energy.

However, it is not required. It is still possible to exceed a tissue’s elastic limit with a slow bullet. You just need enough mass and a big enough meplat (or expanded petals) to transfer the energy in the tissue. Think heavy big bore subsonics with expanding bullets.

Looking at pistol calibers, you only have the bullet’s crush path for wounding. It’s even smaller when using an FMJ because the round nose pushes tissue aside instead of crushing. So hollow points, wadcutters, and other designs with an edge help create a crush path that’s actually the diameter of the bullet. Anyway, I digress, I meant to say that because pistol cartridges don’t cause that permanent wounding from temporary cavities, it has exacerbated the rumor that only rifle velocities do exceed that elastic limit. But it’s just not true. It’s only that velocity makes it easier. Partly because high mass bullets are harder to slow down quickly in tissue and partly because velocity has that non-linear effect on energy.

Edit: one thing that could potentially be called hydrostatic shock is if a bullet passes close to the spinal column without hitting it. And the temporary cavity encompasses the spinal column and causes the spinal cord to smack against the vertebrae. It has been theorized that this can cause momentary paralysis.
 
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First, hydrostatic “shock” isn’t a thing. Please read the international wound ballistics papers, Dr. Fackler’s work, or Dr. Roberts who took over his work.

Yes, our tissues are mostly water, which is part of the reason for the temporary stretch cavities that occur when a bullet enters the body if it transfers energy *. In order for that to do any damage, you need to exceed the elastic limit of the tissue (different tissues have different limits). You need enough energy transfer to reach that limit, but you can decrease the limit with lacerations in the tissue (think from fragmentation).

* if a pointy bullet doesn’t destabilize, fragment, or expand, then it will ice pick straight through and not cause much of a temporary cavity at all.

Now, velocity absolutely helps when trying to have enough energy transfer to turn a temporary cavity into permanent tissue damage. It helps because it has a non-linear influence on energy.

However, it is not required. It is still possible to exceed a tissue’s elastic limit with a slow bullet. You just need enough mass and a big enough meplat (or expanded petals) to transfer the energy in the tissue. Think heavy big bore subsonics with expanding bullets.

Looking at pistol calibers, you only have the bullet’s crush path for wounding. It’s even smaller when using an FMJ because the round nose pushes tissue aside instead of crushing. So hollow points, wadcutters, and other designs with an edge help create a crush path that’s actually the diameter of the bullet. Anyway, I digress, I meant to say that because pistol cartridges don’t cause that permanent wounding from temporary cavities, it has exacerbated the rumor that only rifle velocities do exceed that elastic limit. But it’s just not true. It’s only that velocity makes it easier. Partly because high mass bullets are harder to slow down quickly in tissue and partly because velocity has that non-linear effect on energy.

Edit: one thing that could potentially be called hydrostatic shock is if a bullet passes close to the spinal column without hitting it. And the temporary cavity encompasses the spinal column and causes the spinal cord to smack against the vertebrae. It has been theorized that this can cause momentary paralysis.
What he said


 
Wow I just randomly found a box of 5 federal flight control buckshot. I wonder where that came from? I have a bunch of wolf power buckshot 00, nobel 00 and some random fiocchi #1.
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but I doubt it matters.

Home invaders are cowards who are looking for the softest target they can find. Return fire will drive them away nine times out of ten, meaning I doubt it matters what that return fire is. If I'm at the top of the stairs sending ordnance their way, it's a very rare crook who'll continue toward me regardless of whether I'm sending buck or bird. Or .22 LR, come to that.

I'd go with whatever's easiest to patch in my walls. I'm perfectly okay with not killing the guy. He's never going to make another try at my house. So, from my perspective, the problem is solved.
Full auto blanks would probably get them out of the house pretty quick then lol.

Or a cannon
 
No.

He's not interested in getting shot. He's not interested in shooting me, either. He's after an easy score.

There are occasional homicidal maniacs out there, like that kid who macheted that mom and her daughter up in New Hampshire some years ago. Those people are FAR more rare than even the most paranoid homeowner can ever count on seeing. That guy? If he's eventually going to come up the stairs and get me, I'll eventually hit him enough times that he'll lose.
Joe Biden: "Get a shotgun."

Picton: "Get a 22."

[devil]
 
I alternate with this
Both sold at Walmart
 
NEVER use birdshot. The shotgun is a devistating weapon and birdshot defeats the purpose.

Why do people suggest birdshot? Because its "safer, due to low penetration". Which the reason not to use it. If it won't penetrate drywall, it won't penetrate the bad guy.
Thank you! Someone had to say it. Birdshot belongs nowhere near a home defense shotgun.
 
Shall we go to class to confirm

View: https://youtu.be/zaR1EVybUgc

well damn. Might as well switch my 9 or 45 HD pistols over to subsonic .22 pistols. You know. So I can shoot the bad guy with the least capable rounds possible but while still having a chance to kill him or piss him off. Or I can just used the ammo meant for killing someone with the best chance of doing so.
 
well damn. Might as well switch my 9 or 45 HD pistols over to subsonic .22 pistols. You know. So I can shoot the bad guy with the least capable rounds possible but while still having a chance to kill him or piss him off. Or I can just used the ammo meant for killing someone with the best chance of doing so.
Wait, they might be onto something with the birdshot recommendation. Bad guy gets hit somewhere that REALLY hurts and survives to feel it. [laugh]
 
well damn. Might as well switch my 9 or 45 HD pistols over to subsonic .22 pistols. You know. So I can shoot the bad guy with the least capable rounds possible but while still having a chance to kill STOP him or piss him off. Or I can just used the ammo meant for killing STOPPING someone with the best chance of doing so.
Fixed it
 
LONG STORY SHORT:

Well respected firearms guy says "Is birdshot a viable option in a home defense shotgun? And I will say once again, if you use a fairly powerful birdshot load, absolutely, yes it is!".
BS. Even the most powerful birdshot does not come close to the stopping power of a proper buckshot load
 
Thanks all. No worries about overpenetration. Any reason to favor 00 or No. 4 buckshot? I can keep a couple slugs in the shell card.
#4 buck full tube of them At hallway distance going to work , at close range works like a slug .

You could use BB size also . Few extea pellets and a bit more spread.
 
If you want a shotgun, get a shotgun. The least expensive (around $250) that is absolutely reliable is the Mossy Maverick. And use some proper 00. These tactical/LE shells are some bullshit. All they do is put less powder into them. You want oompf for home defense. Same goes for birdshot. Dick Cheney couldn’t kill a pussified septuagenarian lawyer by shooting him in the face with birdshot, I’m not gonna use that crap for home defense.
 
well damn. Might as well switch my 9 or 45 HD pistols over to subsonic .22 pistols. You know. So I can shoot the bad guy with the least capable rounds possible but while still having a chance to kill him or piss him off. Or I can just used the ammo meant for killing someone with the best chance of doing so.
Well we could nuke them from orbit, Only way to be sure
Or maybe call in Ol'e Puff the Magic Dragon
I thought we are talking Home Defense, Not some guy climbing over the back yard fence
Stopping the threat is the point. And using a Noise Maker/Flash Bang for the Shock N Awe aspect is a plus
Not sure about OP's domicile But you have to think about Condo's,Townhouse's,Apartments,
You own that shot after it leaves the barrel no matter what it is and where it goes
I think 15-20ft and less High End BirdShot will shine as home defense in those situations
 
Now I'm curious and will find out for sure today. I'll shoot birdshot at 4, 6 and 8 yards from a 20" cylinder bore 12 gauge.
Heres where you went wrong , take the cyl bore fudd pos and stuff it in the closet. X full choke shotty , some call”em turkey chokes.

Now tou got me thinking , do you want spread or not?
Hmmm how about #6 with one of those spreader wads?
 
Well we could nuke them from orbit, Only way to be sure
Or maybe call in Ol'e Puff the Magic Dragon
I thought we are talking Home Defense, Not some guy climbing over the back yard fence
Stopping the threat is the point. And using a Noise Maker/Flash Bang for the Shock N Awe aspect is a plus
Not sure about OP's domicile But you have to think about Condo's,Townhouse's,Apartments,
You own that shot after it leaves the barrel no matter what it is and where it goes
I think 15-20ft and less High End BirdShot will shine as home defense in those situations
Decent size house on 2 acres, out in a fringe area with a couple thousand acres out the back door. Historically very low crime but lately brazen criminals seem to be showing up. Couple of expensive vehicles were stolen including one two doors away. Chased off a sketchy person who showed up with an unmarked van and seemed surprised when i answered the door. Said he was friends with the previous owner. I bought the house new LOL. Coyotes and bears up to ~450 lbs will occasionally show up at the house.

Bird shot for this? No thank you. Maybe ok for others with a different situation.

So far the bears and sketchy people have all left immediately when asked. Some of the coyotes needed some aggressive shoo-ing to convince them to leave. I plan to continue to "use my words" but I think the contingency plan should be there.
 
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