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TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
This is another reason why folks who are going to employ a firearm for personal protection really do need some type of formal training.
A good, compact, bright, momentary-activated and reliable weapons mounted light system is probably the greatest innovation in home defense - in my opinion.
Folks who have only had a NRA basic course gets those 4 rules imbedded into their brain housing group as absolutely unbreakable. I am not putting the NRA course down but it is not the end-all of training. It is good knowledge for anyone who wants to store a firearm safely at home and go to the range to plink or just enjoy a day shooting.
When you use a firearm for vocation or defense there are different rules and techniques required to help maximize your survival and minimize colateral damage. And you may very well point a loaded weapon at a "friendly". That doesn't mean you have to shoot them.
The old FBI technique had its purpose years back when our only option for bright light was a heavy 3 - 5 cell Maglite and you were using it in constant on to search a room / building that you were not familiar with. The thought being the bad guy would shoot at the light and the light would be away from your head and body. The biggest problem comes when you have to try shooting one-handed in a shit-storm.
The context of this forum is personal defense, and this thread is home defense. You are familiar with the layout of your home. Your are familiar with the normal sounds within your home. You know who and where any family members are and what their normal routine is during the night. Most homes have enough ambient light from all the LED clocks on VCRs, street lights through windows, and such that coming out of a slumber you have very good night vision.
If you have been alerted to the point you truly believe you may need to use a weapon, that weapon had better be on target when you illuminate it. There is an old saying we used, "Your weapon does not follow your eyes, your eyes follow your weapon".
A good, compact, bright, momentary-activated and reliable weapons mounted light system is probably the greatest innovation in home defense - in my opinion.
Folks who have only had a NRA basic course gets those 4 rules imbedded into their brain housing group as absolutely unbreakable. I am not putting the NRA course down but it is not the end-all of training. It is good knowledge for anyone who wants to store a firearm safely at home and go to the range to plink or just enjoy a day shooting.
When you use a firearm for vocation or defense there are different rules and techniques required to help maximize your survival and minimize colateral damage. And you may very well point a loaded weapon at a "friendly". That doesn't mean you have to shoot them.
The old FBI technique had its purpose years back when our only option for bright light was a heavy 3 - 5 cell Maglite and you were using it in constant on to search a room / building that you were not familiar with. The thought being the bad guy would shoot at the light and the light would be away from your head and body. The biggest problem comes when you have to try shooting one-handed in a shit-storm.
The context of this forum is personal defense, and this thread is home defense. You are familiar with the layout of your home. Your are familiar with the normal sounds within your home. You know who and where any family members are and what their normal routine is during the night. Most homes have enough ambient light from all the LED clocks on VCRs, street lights through windows, and such that coming out of a slumber you have very good night vision.
If you have been alerted to the point you truly believe you may need to use a weapon, that weapon had better be on target when you illuminate it. There is an old saying we used, "Your weapon does not follow your eyes, your eyes follow your weapon".
N.E. CHARTERS
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I have to wonder why anyone would want to show there location with a light.
"MUZZLE FLASH SUPPRESSOR" and a little night light to show us the way???
If you need a light. MAG LIGHT makes a nifty little 5 D cell model that will work well to spotlight friendly people, ilumminate bad guys and doubles as a baseball bat in case you need to make a home run.
This picture sillistrates what not to do.
"MUZZLE FLASH SUPPRESSOR" and a little night light to show us the way???
If you need a light. MAG LIGHT makes a nifty little 5 D cell model that will work well to spotlight friendly people, ilumminate bad guys and doubles as a baseball bat in case you need to make a home run.
This picture sillistrates what not to do.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
The simple answer is you can't hit what you can't see. The extended answer involves knowing how to use it correctly with proper techniques.
1) Would you rather shoot someone that you can't identify?
2) Go find someone who has a surefire light. Go into a dark room with him. Have him shine the light at your face for a moment, and then quietly move away. How long does it take you to find him again? Surefire (and other tactical lights) are blindingly bright.
N.E. CHARTERS
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1) I hopefully would not be able to identify the bad guy. Would not want it to be someone I know.
2) Blinding them is a good thing. If I blind them with both ends my Mag light its even better.
3) Back in Uncle Sams canoe club they taught us never to point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it. so. putting a flashlight on my gun would not make a lot of scense.
4) I would have to go with the hold the flashlight as high and far away from your body school of thought. That leaves you with a lot of flexability and options. I have used this technique and it works.
"Never said I dint know how to use it; Just said I never had much use for it"
And the NUMBER #1 Good reason not to have your light on a weapon. What if the person comming in the door is trained law inforcement and you .
a) shine a light at them or
b) shine a gun at them.
Leave the Lighted impliments in the Movies.
Hey I can see all the way thru!
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I agree that often due to exigent circumstances often times those
rules will have to be violated, and sometimes in a specific mode of
carry often times things are unavoidable. (eg, if one is seated, have
fun trying to draw your gun without muzzle sweeping your leg, or if
you have an appedix holster, the muzzle is probably pointing on ones
leg or family jewels when it's in the holster. ) It's a matter of
risk management. (Don't anyone get the wrong picture... I'm not saying
muzzle sweeping someone is a good thing... but in some limited circumstances
it may be unavoidable. This is why the trigger finger mantra is probably
more important than all the other rules combined... with modern firearms the
gun will not fire unless one touches the trigger! )
FWIW, that isn't the mantra which I derived my statement from. Mine is
more of a legal than anything else. Yeah, if someone
has smashed your door down a tac light is probably fine, because at that
point they've already breached your house and pointing a loaded gun at
them isn't a huge issue. But for the standard "weird noise you heard" or
someone knocking at your door at 2 am, a tac light may be
inappropriate. I would be arrested (or at least deprived of a permit/guns)
by now if the neighbors saw me wandering around in the yard with a
pistol mounted tac light trying to figure out what "that noise" is.
I guess what I'm getting at is even if you do have a tac light, you should
have supplemental flashlight for times where bringing a muzzle to bear
on something may not be appropriate.
-Mike
Actually, they could SHOOT YOU either way if they see you
have something in your hand that you point at them. Cops have
shot people with soda cans in their hand. (One no-knock raid they
killed a guy in a bed with a soda can in his hand, the light shined off
it, they thought it was a gun and shot him. )
Of course this regurgitates the age old debate about no-knock
warrants..... Cops get the wrong house... it happens to be YOU...
what do you do? That's serious thread drift, though. IMO the
outcome -could- be bad there with or without a tac light due to
varying circumstances of the raid.
-Mike
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
You make some very good points and I think if you go back and re-read my entire post you'll see that I limited my response to inside the house home defense scenario. I, too, am saying that muzzle sweep is not a good idea in general terms. I am saying that in the role of defensive combat you will sweep others while making the determination if they are a shoot or no-shoot. You also made a very good point that I should have elaborated on and that is the trigger finger.
A supplemental flashlight is ALWAYS a must but was not part of the scenario (and maybe should have been).
Some of the other comments made by some folks is very dangerous thinking and probably no amount of facts and discussion will change that.
That requires you to get within grappling distance of them. Not a good idea for most of us.
I'm an NRA certified firearms instructor. I know all about the safety rules, and if you reread the thread, you'll see that I never suggested violating them.
Surefire lights are bright enough that you can illuminate a room by bouncing the light off of the floor or wall. If your only experience is with a Maglight, then you might not realize this. You do not need to point the light (and thus the gun if you are using a weapon-mounted light) at a person to identify whether they are friend or foe.
I strongly suggest that you consider getting some lowlight training. Mine was at Sigarms Academy.
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Harries Technique demonstrated by Gabe Suarez (1st two pics, not sure about the third):
NOTE: When I took my police training, we were taught to hold the light out as far from our body as possible. Apparently they have changed tactics over the years and this is one of the more preferred methods.
NOTE: When I took my police training, we were taught to hold the light out as far from our body as possible. Apparently they have changed tactics over the years and this is one of the more preferred methods.
TY43215
NES Member
Since you included a quote from my response, I will reply. I have attended training of various types and used the training since 1973. Little more than NRA basic.
(For the rest of this post I use the generic "you")
I would still suggest, there are much better methods than firearms mounted lights for home defense. First of all, anyone at home searching their own home for an intruder is a fool. Unless you are trying to round up family members, you are better off to stay in one spot and wait for the calvary or be prepared to defend against an intruder you are sure you can identify.
A hand held light is much easier to use in lighting areas and objects. If you are that concerned with shooting with one hand, I suggest you practice more. Shooting one hand whether it is with hand gun, rifle or shotgun is a necessary skill for you to master.
NRA aside as I do not agree with a lot of their training, I refer you to the 4 basic rules of gun safety:
The 1st Law of Gun Safety - The Gun Is Always Loaded!
The 2nd Law of Gun Safety - Never Point A Gun At Something You're Not Prepared To Destroy!
The 3rd Law of Gun Safety - Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It!
The 4th Law of Gun Safety - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target!
#2 and #3 are pertinent to this discussion. Using a light separate from the firearm allows proper target identification before covering with the muzzle. If you are LE or military going into a hot situation, you are planning on a hostile being present. The light works in that situation.
If you are Joe Homeowner with limited exposure to stressful situations and limited training your chances of shooting from a startle reflex is much greater. Using a light separate from the firearm will allow you the leeway you will need not to shoot the wrong person, or mirror
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
As for the techniques, the Harries and other cross hand techniques are very difficult to master. The Surefire technique makes a lot more sense. I will not be explaining it as I am not certified to teach it. Check out the Surefire web site. They used to have it there.
The other comment on giving up your position with a light is addressed this way. When the light goes on I am there. When the light goes out that is where I used to be.
PS: Len, the third is Ayoob (A long time ago)
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Gary,
Thanks, I thought it was Mas, but wasn't 100% certain. The pics of Gabe must also be from a long time ago . . . he didn't look like that when I last saw him (2005).
I agree with your post . . . especially about MOVING! That was one of Gabe's comments and it makes perfect sense (but may not be too possible in many bedrooms due to logistics).
Thanks, I thought it was Mas, but wasn't 100% certain. The pics of Gabe must also be from a long time ago . . . he didn't look like that when I last saw him (2005).
I agree with your post . . . especially about MOVING! That was one of Gabe's comments and it makes perfect sense (but may not be too possible in many bedrooms due to logistics).
USMA-82
NES Member
Just to throw a little wrench in the works - sometimes it doesn't matter what technique you use, or where you have the flashlight. You can still screw up.
At a Defensive Pistol match in Springfield a couple of years ago, competitors were shown an example of the type targets we would be using. The target used for the demonstration was a life-size, color picture of a young man with his back to you, looking over his left shoulder, and holding a gun just over the same shoulder.
After the briefing we went to the first stage and prepared for the match. At the start buzzer, all of the lights went out in the indoor range, turning it completely pitch black. I struggled to find my Surefire light and assume the Harries technique. When I found the first target, it was the same young man from the briefing - and I plugged him. But, as I found out later, the gun in his hand had been replaced with a cell phone. I had just "neutralized" a non-threat.
My point is that conditioned response can really do a number on you. If we train the way we fight (in low-light conditions), there needs to be a requirement to REALLY indentify the threat before shooting. This only comes from alot of practice, while operating under stress.
I'm not claiming my experience in training puts me at the same level as those of you who have done this "real life", but it scares me just enough to want to get more training, and hope I never have to use it.
At a Defensive Pistol match in Springfield a couple of years ago, competitors were shown an example of the type targets we would be using. The target used for the demonstration was a life-size, color picture of a young man with his back to you, looking over his left shoulder, and holding a gun just over the same shoulder.
After the briefing we went to the first stage and prepared for the match. At the start buzzer, all of the lights went out in the indoor range, turning it completely pitch black. I struggled to find my Surefire light and assume the Harries technique. When I found the first target, it was the same young man from the briefing - and I plugged him. But, as I found out later, the gun in his hand had been replaced with a cell phone. I had just "neutralized" a non-threat.
My point is that conditioned response can really do a number on you. If we train the way we fight (in low-light conditions), there needs to be a requirement to REALLY indentify the threat before shooting. This only comes from alot of practice, while operating under stress.
I'm not claiming my experience in training puts me at the same level as those of you who have done this "real life", but it scares me just enough to want to get more training, and hope I never have to use it.
TY43215
NES Member
Last shooter on my squad in that match had a full duty rig on. Lights went out all you heard was "Oh Shit" . Took him a little while to find his light and get motoring.
That was a match where the only thing better than a light was 2 lights. It was a very good training exercise to say the least. Not real life but still good practice.
A friend from a major city PD shot the match with a Glock mounted light. He reverted back to hand held after one stage saying it was not a wide enough field of view.
Harries has a couple of issues. First, you can easily cross your support hand if you are not careful -- present the gun FIRST, then the support hand crosses under and comes behind. Second, it is tiring and not great at controlling recoil. Suarez suggests a modification of Harries. Instead of being in a sort of modified Chapman position (strong elbow locked), try putting your arms in more of an X, crossed at the wrists. That is, have both elbows bent and the gun canted inwards. I find that is easier to control recoil and easier to maintain for a longer period of time. YMMV.
There are lots of flashlight techniques. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Try them and see what works for you, because it might not be the same as what works for me.
I'm starting to wonder if this is a home defense thread or not. Getting waken up suddenly at night and being awake for a good number of hours and using flashlight techinques are totally different animals. When something goes bump in the night enough to stir you from sleep, you are not "fully in the reality" (hard for me to put this in words...between dream land and full-on coffee fueled awake) of your surroundings. The adrealine starts pumping and then fumbling for a weapon AND a light. Did I mention that this is in almost complete darkness? The whole thing should be about simplicity and of course target recogintion. I have a Surefire forend on my shotgun, which is right next to the bed between the night stand. It's extremely easy to grab, and when the light is actuated it illuminates the whole room enough to see every corner clearly...even when pointed at the ceiling. Family members? I don't have kids and I would know if my wife is all of a sudden not sleeping next to me if I wake up. No notice warrants? When those are served, the officers are extremely LOUD and are shouting "police" and whatnot. They do that because a. element of surprise and show of force and b. so they don't get shot at by someone thinking they are someone that shouldn't be there...a personal safety thing. Now my shotgun/light perpslayer is only dangerous when I want it to be. I'm not going to hunt anyone down in my house, but if someone ignores my warning or the fecalating sound of a round of 00 buck being chambered and comes through the bedroom door unannounced, then it takes less than 1 second for me to go from a downward pointing shotty (w/light illuminated just by gripping the forend, target identified) to dangerous & deadly. If I do fire, I don't have to worry about over-penetration of the buckshot as opposed to a handgun or rifle/carbine round. It's simple, it's quick and easily doable when tired or wired.
Currently my setup is a handheld surefire and SA1911 (or my daily carry, both are available). I'm planning on picking up a rail mounted light for the 1911, it has a full length rail. My reasoning on that is while I have the surefire you are never sure what will happen in an emergency. Having the wepon mounted light is one more piece of insurance that I can ID a target if the surefire is dropped or fumbled.
Related to Mattitude's post above. I know everyone is different, but the few times I've been awakened in an emergency (luckily none involving our current subject) situation I've been alert and moving very quickly. I do realize that may not always be the case.
Related to Mattitude's post above. I know everyone is different, but the few times I've been awakened in an emergency (luckily none involving our current subject) situation I've been alert and moving very quickly. I do realize that may not always be the case.
J
Jose
No incorrect assumption. I've read the box of truth before and if you read the text, it states that the 00 buck load did NOT penetrate as much as the handgun and rifle rounds. The tests conducted are good, but not perfect and all inclusive. I live in a 2600 sq. ft. single story house w/a brick exterior. I am confident that any stray pellets shot from my bedroom will not make it through the brick exterior after going through a few walls, studs, fire place and traveling 60+ feet to the exterior wall. It is proven that buckshot has less over penetration than 9mm/45acp and rifle/carbine rounds.
J
Jose
So, 00 buck only goes through six sheets of drywall. Yep, pretty worry-free......
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
Brick is going to stop any handgun or small caliber rifle round (223) as well. In light of that, I much prefer an AR carbine.
So, 00 buck only goes through six sheets of drywall. Yep, pretty worry-free......
Brick is going to stop any handgun or small caliber rifle round (223) as well. In light of that, I much prefer an AR carbine.
You can't be seriously taking "the box of truth" as a be-all-end-all conversation stopper in regards to wall penetration. I didn't see any electrical conduits, studs, closet contents, etc. inside the "box of truth"...all of which is inside my house that could stop buckshot. Physics plays a big part in this. a 9mm, 115gr. projectile firing over 1200fps has much more mass and energy than a .32cal 30gr. (approx.) buckshot pellet. 6 sheets of drywall straight shot penetration, yes but in a real house it won't make it through 6 walls. 5.56mm 62gr. projectile @ 3200fps. will go through a brick wall. I am much more confident not only just in my house, but in the court room by choosing a plane Jane pump shotgun over an "assault" rifle/carbine. I know I can put a man down with 1 burst of buckshot than trying to get a good center mass shot placement with a carbine...and it might take a few shots. 1 in the arm, 2 in the lower abdomen, 2 in the chest before an intruder might be incapacited...meanwhile high velocity rifle rounds richochet off the floor, smash out a window and land who knows where. 2 problems here that might not be so obvious. It is entirely possible to fire off 5 rounds in a small caliber carbine to achive a vital hit or incapacation. The police, and worse yet, the court can rule this excessive force. I know of one case here in Fayetteville where it was ruled against a homeowner...and he is now a felon. That is problem 1. Problem 2 is the whole "assault" rifle/carbine thing in civil court. A person can be painted to be a "warrior" or "vigilante" with such "weaponry". Same can be said for highly customized or tuned pistols. They were "made" soley to kill...or so they will try to convince the jury. To keep a long story from getting longer (whew...), it is best to keep your choice for defense as simple as possible, w/high hit probability and lethality down to 1-2 shots to keep you "in the clear" as they say. I know my shotgun is extremely lethal. I know for a fact that any stray 00 buckshot rounds will NOT tear up my house and inconvience any neighbors. Politics up North are bad enough, but try defending yourself for a homicide you committed (defending your self & family no less...but some don't care you survived, only a life was lost) while using a weapon that is viewed as militaristic. Everyone here is an adult and can fully make your own choices, but be prepared to live with those choices.
There was a guy in Arizona who was attacked by a man walking two dogs. I can't remember the details of the scenario but most think it was good shoot. After the guilty verdict one of the jurors mentioned the use of hollowpoint and a powerful caliber like 10MM as the reason for his giving the guilty verdict. He thought it showed intent to kill and not just to stop.
J
Jose
When you can show evidence of the things you claim as true (62 gr 5.56 going through brick walls, people being convicted by virtue of the firearm used, charges of excessive force due to multiple gunshot wounds in otherwise justfiable shootings, etc.), I will listen.
Maybe you are pretty good with a shotgun and suck with a carbine. Your words: "trying to get a good center mass shot placement with a carbine...and it might take a few shots. 1 in the arm, 2 in the lower abdomen, 2 in the chest before an intruder might be incapacited...meanwhile high velocity rifle rounds richochet off the floor, smash out a window and land who knows where". But if that's the case, don't project your lack of ability with certain weapons on others. At room distances, two to the chest and one to the head with a carbine happens lightning quick when the rifle in in my hands. YMMV.
I'm sure others would be interested in those factoids as well.
ok...here is my humble opinion on weapon lights
let me state for the record...i am not leo/active military
im a private citizen that trains as much and reads as much as i can about every discipline of gun handling/shooting etc
of all of my primary "go to" weapons...i have them outfitted with weaponslights
my primary AR has a surefire m96 fmounted on the fore end (a m900 is on order to outfit my other AR)
my pump shotgun has a surefire g35 mounted on the magazine tube
my glock 20 hasa streamlight m6x light/laser combo
and my kimber custom has a surefire x2000
when you have a weaponlight you have the advantage of being able to see what others cannot...that is why almost all of out military and leo are now issued lights
DARKNESS is an advantage of the criminal...they are able to conceal themselves easier and move with the shadows...think about when the last time was you saw a home invader dressed in reflective neon yellow clothing
a light takes the advantage of hiding under cover away from them and restores it in your hands
here is an example of why i keep my weapons with lights mounted on them
in a recent training course we were put into a scenario where terrorists had invaded the country and the movie theater we were in with out family was taken hostage...bad guys were taking pot shots at anything that moved and inside the theater was chaos...the objective was to use cover, move your wife and daughter to safety while eliminating any threats that stood in your way...now keep in mind...the setting was a movie theater...have you ever considered getting in a shootout in a movie theater where the only source of light is what is flickin on the screen...casting shadows over everything???
half of the guys in the training didnt come equipped with flashlights...the other half had hand held lights...i had both my small surefire E1L and my light mounted on my glock...i wasnt able to watch the guys go before me as it would have ruined the course for me but i was able to stay and watch the guys that went in after me
the guys without lights had a much lower hit % then those of us with lights
they were shooting what they could make out of the silhouettes that were popping up representing threats...keep in mind...as your moving, shooting, in the dark, trying to maintain cover, extract your family etc the trainers were yelling, firing blanks, and various other things to try and throw you off
the guys that i had watched after i went were fumbling with their lights, and many had either dropped them and left them or werent shooting as accurately as they could have trying to support both the light and their guns.
at the end of the drill we were told that amidst the fray there were 2 friendly targets...1 was a bystander...the other was police officer...in uniform...i had been the only member in the class who had not shot either of the two friendlys
i helped clean up the range once the practice was done and purposely went over to the target that was the "cop"...he was equipped with a badge, hat and night stick...the poor bastard never stood a chance...he was just as riddled with holes as the terrorist targets were
so there you have it...my experience and vote for why lights are neccessary...in my scenario they helped me identify my targets...distinguish shoot and no shoot targets...and survive the ordeal
let me state for the record...i am not leo/active military
im a private citizen that trains as much and reads as much as i can about every discipline of gun handling/shooting etc
of all of my primary "go to" weapons...i have them outfitted with weaponslights
my primary AR has a surefire m96 fmounted on the fore end (a m900 is on order to outfit my other AR)
my pump shotgun has a surefire g35 mounted on the magazine tube
my glock 20 hasa streamlight m6x light/laser combo
and my kimber custom has a surefire x2000
when you have a weaponlight you have the advantage of being able to see what others cannot...that is why almost all of out military and leo are now issued lights
DARKNESS is an advantage of the criminal...they are able to conceal themselves easier and move with the shadows...think about when the last time was you saw a home invader dressed in reflective neon yellow clothing
a light takes the advantage of hiding under cover away from them and restores it in your hands
here is an example of why i keep my weapons with lights mounted on them
in a recent training course we were put into a scenario where terrorists had invaded the country and the movie theater we were in with out family was taken hostage...bad guys were taking pot shots at anything that moved and inside the theater was chaos...the objective was to use cover, move your wife and daughter to safety while eliminating any threats that stood in your way...now keep in mind...the setting was a movie theater...have you ever considered getting in a shootout in a movie theater where the only source of light is what is flickin on the screen...casting shadows over everything???
half of the guys in the training didnt come equipped with flashlights...the other half had hand held lights...i had both my small surefire E1L and my light mounted on my glock...i wasnt able to watch the guys go before me as it would have ruined the course for me but i was able to stay and watch the guys that went in after me
the guys without lights had a much lower hit % then those of us with lights
they were shooting what they could make out of the silhouettes that were popping up representing threats...keep in mind...as your moving, shooting, in the dark, trying to maintain cover, extract your family etc the trainers were yelling, firing blanks, and various other things to try and throw you off
the guys that i had watched after i went were fumbling with their lights, and many had either dropped them and left them or werent shooting as accurately as they could have trying to support both the light and their guns.
at the end of the drill we were told that amidst the fray there were 2 friendly targets...1 was a bystander...the other was police officer...in uniform...i had been the only member in the class who had not shot either of the two friendlys
i helped clean up the range once the practice was done and purposely went over to the target that was the "cop"...he was equipped with a badge, hat and night stick...the poor bastard never stood a chance...he was just as riddled with holes as the terrorist targets were
so there you have it...my experience and vote for why lights are neccessary...in my scenario they helped me identify my targets...distinguish shoot and no shoot targets...and survive the ordeal
Tony, I talked to a customer (I work at a gun shop part-time) and he was looking at some black powder rifles to buy for his son. I asked him why not a rimfire and he told me that he was convicted of using excessive force in a home invasion and is now a convicted felon and forever ineligible to purchase/own/shoot a firearm. There was a pretty good story to go along with it but bottom line he was convicted of the charge.
Jose, I never said that I lacked training or skill with any weapon system and I don't know where you get that from. I never mentioned anything about handguns, so I must suck at them as well. I'm not here to brag about my abilities but I do know what works. I am a combat veteran, serving 16+ years and continuing. I know for a fact that 5.56 goes through brick and seen, and done it in Afghanistan. I know in a fire fight when getting shot at, precision shots are a bit difficult. Shooting at paper and at people who are shooting back, or have the ability to do so are totally different things. I have personally seen people shot with 5.56 multiple times before going down. I know that a shotgun is the quickest way to put a human down and in a home defense situation that is exactly what you want. Fancy shooting 2 to the chest and 1 to the head is best left to real world operators, but you sound highly skilled so I have no reason to doubt your technique. As to courtroom defense based on weapon type, I suggest you read some Massad Ayoob. He has a book on courtroom cases dealing with weapon type and ammunition. I have never been in a court case but he is more qualified than I, so I listen to what he has to say. Oh hell...what do I know anyway as appearantly I have no room to talk. I guess some real world experience doesn't mean nothing to the box 'o truth.
