Torn about doing business with the perceived enemy.

[Lugnut]

That the owner of NET alerted "the authorities" to BPS' illegal sales (guns not on the AFR; forget the AG's regs) is a matter of record. That "the authorities" knew of these sales from other sources is highly likely.

Scriv- I must say you've got my head spinning on this one! Your overall view on this seems... well, strange based on your signature.

As you say:
"What you tolerate, you validate; what you put up with - you DESERVE! "

I don't think I could... or should any of us tolerate this behavior... regardless of whether or not "other sources" had done the same thing. Let the police and the AG do the crap they want to... but let's not help.

 

[Scrivener]

If you remember one of the first BPS threads that came out regarding this Ted admitted and bragged about doing this himself. He told people here that belong to one of those clubs and his customers it was fact. That doesn't sound like a ill-informed rant to me.

That is an undisputed fact. He has told me so himself.

He has also admitted calling the AG on ammo mail order companies that were delivering to residents of MA.

Really? To whom? Not me, and it has come up in our discussions.

Go back up and read prior posts. The AG's jihad against mailorder/internet dealers long predates the NET storefront and is more accurately traced, as has been posted before, to a TV reporter's story about Sportsmen's Guide shipping "ninja weapons" and BB guns to any kid with access to a parent's credit card. Perhaps you don't recall that or, being in Maine, weren't around for that "expose."

That would make the BPS incident his second action, not his first.

See above.

I apologize if you think I insulted someone who you obviously think is a good person. I guess I have a hard time comprehending having the words "gun friendly" and his past actions in the same sentence.

No apology necessary, at least not to me.

What I find amusing - in the asinine sense of the term - are those who criticize NET for refusing to put up with a competitor's illegal action by characterizing it as "purely for profit." Do these fools truly think BPS is a CHARITY?

Keeeeeeeeerist; get a clue! BPS:

1. Had a DUTY to know the complexities of MA gun laws;

2. Was TOLD of the difficulties of MA gun laws - several times; AND

3. Was offered assistance by NET with navigating said laws;

4. IGNORED all of the above; and

5. Sold firearms in violation of state law in arrogant disregard of all of the above; yet

Is considered a "victim" by many, if not most, on this forum. Pathetic.

Guess what, bunkies - BPS did not come here to make you free! It came here to make money. Period. Just like every other retailer.

If a store undercuts all the legitimate merchants in its area by not collecting taxes in violation of law, does that make the merchandiser a "freedom fighter?"

How about if it imports illegals to work its stores?

How about if it sells counterfeit merchandise?

At what point do you admit that the said merchandiser is acting criminally? Or do you persist in the intellectual fraud of claiming it came to free you from high prices/unions/taxation/the BS myth of your choice and continue to claim the merchants harmed by said illegal actions are conspiring against The Common Good?

It is astounding that the same types who rail against illegal aliens, NAFTA and see "communists/socialists/lib-tards under every bush, now trip over themselves to praise an out-of-state, big-box merchandiser which tried use its size to flout the law and use that advantage to crush local dealers who REALLY support us.

As Pogo observed, "We have met the enemy and he is us!

 

[madmarc0]

Originally Posted by JimB
I would not do business there again, ever.

We are spending monies as a group to fight the anti's and this
guy has what seems only greedy intentions.

JimB


+10000
There are ALWAYS other sources to get what you want.

 

[reinbeau]

Only a lawyer could find anything good out in Ted's actions. Sorry, Scriv, I'm usually with you, believe it or not, but this time you're way off base.

 

[Scrivener]

Only a lawyer could find anything good out in Ted's actions. Sorry, Scriv, I'm usually with you, believe it or not, but this time you're way off base.

It's not that what Ted did was good; it's that this board has succumbed to the mass delusion that BPS was performing a Public Good. It was trying to turn a bigger buck by cheating - and got caught. It's that simple.

But I'll still love you!

 

[Executive]

Sorry, Scriv, I'm usually with you, believe it or not, but this time you're way off base.

+.5 Well, at least slightly off base.

It's not that what Ted did was good; it's that this board has succumbed to the mass delusion that BPS was performing a Public Good. It was trying to turn a bigger buck by cheating - and got caught. It's that simple.

But I'll still love you!

I have no delusions that BPS was acting on behalf of the BPS shareholders and attempting to make a profit. (No crime in trying to make a profit.)

Hypothetical situation: Let's say that after becoming aware of the "questionable" sales at BPS, NET decided to quietly begin selling the same items, prompting other MA firearm retailers to also quietly begin selling these items. Such an ad-hoc coalition, with the financial and legal might of BPS in the lead, would make a far more formidable opponent to the AG "regulations". I am confident that the AG would at minimum weigh the cost of action against such a coalition before enforcement proceedings began. Then again, the AG might just kick the crap out of everyone, so I don't know... I DO know, however that NET's actions were in poor taste and of questionable character for a business purporting to support firearms ownership here in MA. Any chance to challenge the draconian laws and "regulations" on even limited legal grounds, should be met with enthusiasm rather than skeptecism and jealousy. Ted could have done better.

 

[MichaelJ]

Save your money. Another (Better) deal will come up.

 

[Ripach]

I say buy it. I don't agree with what Ted did, I think he had better options, but alas I am also selfish. I would buy a gun from Mrs. Clinton if it was a model/caliber that I was in the market for at a good price. I will continue to shop at NET if they have something I am looking for, I will no longer go out of my way to purchase Ammo/accessories there but I won't boycott either. I've said it before and will be flamed for it again, but there are already too few gun dealers in this state already. Who does putting NET out of business serve? I'll tell you, it serves the Anti. Let us not cut off the nose to spite the face, no matter how much the nose looks like a rat. Just my .02.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

At what point do you admit that the said merchandiser is acting riminally?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't BPS selling items on the EOPS list but not passing double secret probation? If that is the case, wasn't BPS engaging in what the AG considers a civil violation rather than a criminal act?

BPS was failing to protect the consumers from unfair and deceptive trade practices which the consumers in question specifically did not wish to be protected against.

 

[dreppucci007]

I would rather hit my left testicle with a hammer than do business with that fat rat bastard!

Ok, I actually just spit a little coffee on my new monitor...Bastard!


Truth be told, the ONE time that I was ever in there, I was essentially ignored, so they wouldn't get my business again, anyways.


Like others have said...If you REALLY wanted to do it, you would've done it already. The fact that you took the time to start the thread, have a few people tell you to go for it, and you STILL aren't sure...You really don't want to do it, but really want the gun, and would love for someone to help you find the same thing with a similar reasonable price.

So...Tell us what you're looking for and what you want to pay...I'm sure that SOMEONE in the NES community has one and is willing to cut you a decent deal on it. That way you'll not only stick to your convictions, but also help out a fellow NESr!

 

[Joe R.]

I'm still torn on this too. [sad2]

I had my face to face talk with Ted over this and I'm not as convinced as you are Scrivener. Yes, a new company comes into town and is a big box merchant with national coverage. I would have gone into the store within the first couple of days to check out what they had for prices. Once I found out that they couldn't touch my prices, I would have breathed a sigh of relief and just continue to march forward. Ted's story didn't end there though - he had to add his 2 cents into the pot. This is where I have my problems with him. The AG would have found out about this in their own time and didn't need one ( or more ) of the slaves here to point out what they were doing was wrong. Maybe some of us being somewhat deluded here in this forum and were enjoying BPS's civil disobedience in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

I basically told Ted that I'm treating him as a kid that did bad and grounding him for a few weeks or more, depending on how I feel. I've gotten some good deals there and it does pain me to do this but this was uncalled for. He won't suffer too bad... the average MA person isn't on this board so he's okay. I just want to let him know that I wasn't happy with his deceison. It's really too bad because I spent some time in there and I don't like to miss going to see Kevin, Fred, and Elley ( spelling is off... I don't remember exactly.)

You know, this state sucks for all the shit that we have to put up with just to shoot a powder-burning projectile weapon. What sucks even more is when a slave turn in another slave for breaking what the commander says is wrong so they don't hurt us any more than we already are.

Scrivener,

1) Success happens in the background... failure happens in full view of everybody.

2) 1 f*&kup will cancel 5 or 6 good actions.

It will take some time for Ted to get back to where he was prior to this happening. I hope he does. There are other shops in MA to go to - he was the most convienent for me and it pains me that I have to do this.

Joe R.

 

[MassMark]

So...Tell us what you're looking for and what you want to pay...I'm sure that SOMEONE in the NES community has one and is willing to cut you a decent deal on it. That way you'll not only stick to your convictions, but also help out a fellow NESr!

Excellent idea. Tell us what you're looking for and I bet we can get our collective heads together and find it....

As to Ted, it all comes down to loyalty in my book. I explained this situation to a local dealer here just yesterday and his reaction was much the same as the majority of folks posting here. In respect to Ross, I won't quote him verbatim, but suffice it to say that it was an expletive festival. "Especially in Massachusetts, we need to stick together - big or small", was the gist of what he was trying to say in between the F-bombs. "That did nothing but set us back and it should set him back - loyalty to your customers comes first".

Anyone who cannot see how his actions and subsequent boasting about them is not disloyal may need a thorough gray matter examination....

 

[Patriot]

That is an undisputed fact. He has told me so himself.



Really? To whom? Not me, and it has come up in our discussions.

Go back up and read prior posts. The AG's jihad against mailorder/internet dealers long predates the NET storefront and is more accurately traced, as has been posted before, to a TV reporter's story about Sportsmen's Guide shipping "ninja weapons" and BB guns to any kid with access to a parent's credit card. Perhaps you don't recall that or, being in Maine, weren't around for that "expose."



See above.



No apology necessary, at least not to me.

What I find amusing - in the asinine sense of the term - are those who criticize NET for refusing to put up with a competitor's illegal action by characterizing it as "purely for profit." Do these fools truly think BPS is a CHARITY?

Keeeeeeeeerist; get a clue! BPS:

1. Had a DUTY to know the complexities of MA gun laws;

2. Was TOLD of the difficulties of MA gun laws - several times; AND

3. Was offered assistance by NET with navigating said laws;

4. IGNORED all of the above; and

5. Sold firearms in violation of state law in arrogant disregard of all of the above; yet

Is considered a "victim" by many, if not most, on this forum. Pathetic.

Guess what, bunkies - BPS did not come here to make you free! It came here to make money. Period. Just like every other retailer.

If a store undercuts all the legitimate merchants in its area by not collecting taxes in violation of law, does that make the merchandiser a "freedom fighter?"

How about if it imports illegals to work its stores?

How about if it sells counterfeit merchandise?

At what point do you admit that the said merchandiser is acting criminally? Or do you persist in the intellectual fraud of claiming it came to free you from high prices/unions/taxation/the BS myth of your choice and continue to claim the merchants harmed by said illegal actions are conspiring against The Common Good?

It is astounding that the same types who rail against illegal aliens, NAFTA and see "communists/socialists/lib-tards under every bush, now trip over themselves to praise an out-of-state, big-box merchandiser which tried use its size to flout the law and use that advantage to crush local dealers who REALLY support us.

As Pogo observed, "We have met the enemy and he is us!

Scriv,

I would agree with you 100% about the motives of BPS, but you should also then agree with
me that the motives of NET are exactly the same. If you are arguing that NET sold out BPS
out of concern for the residents of Massachusetts wrongfully breaking the law, I have a
couple of bridges to sell you. You like Ted, that is fine. I have never met the man but prior
to this incident, had I been in the area, made it a point to get there. Not anymore.

A huge level of distrust now exists between the gun owning community at NES (not
everyone) as to what level of 'honor' Ted has. Where does he draw the line with information
he is willing to share with the authorities for personal or professional gain? This level of
distrust does not go away because he chooses to share his services or his profits for
whatever reason.

He could choose to become a monk and I doubt that anyone will ever think of him in the
same light again. We didn't do this to his character or his reputation, he did. He only
has to answer to himself. All we can do is judge him by his actions and adjust our personal
behavior wrt him and his business.

 

[C-pher]

Really? To whom? Not me...

There was a person that he admitted it to...at one point. A person many people trust. Just because it wasn't you, doesn't mean that it wasn't said.

But if that's the way it is...if I do something, but don't tell you, that means that I didn't do it?

Just asking...

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't BPS selling items on the EOPS list but not passing double secret probation? If that is the case, wasn't BPS engaging in what the AG considers a civil violation rather than a criminal act?

Actually, yes and no.

 

[Scrivener]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't BPS selling items on the EOPS list but not passing double secret probation? If that is the case, wasn't BPS engaging in what the AG considers a civil violation rather than a criminal act?

Consider yourself corrected.

BPS sold not only Glocks, which are proscribed merely because of the AG's dictat, but also Springfields, which are not and have never been on the AFR.

As far as the profit issue goes, obviously that is why NET and BPS are both in business. Ergo, if NET is being villified for protecting its interests against unlawful actions by a competitor, why do many on this board still fail to apply the same "he just did it for the money" approach to BPS?

In short, I it aberrant that so many here treat BPS as The Messiah, come to free the children of NES from the AG. IF that were the case - and it obviously isn't - BPS would have challenged the fiat up front. It didn't. Instead it folded like a cheap card table and scrambled to get back the guns it sold illegally.

It wasn't smart, it wasn't brave and it wasn't acting in our interests. It was stupid, greedy and gutless.

Again, what NET did is hardly praiseworthy. Neither is what BPS did - however unable or unwilling many here are to acknowledge that fact.

 

[bostonshovel]

If it were me..I would take my business elsewhere.

 

[drgrant]

Actually, yes and no.

So, BPS only transferred Glocks and other ON LIST guns and not XD's
or other off list guns? That was the impression I got when this whole
thing came out of the gate.

-Mike

 

[Nickle]

Scrivener, I'll concede that BPS was guilty as sin, right up front. maybe they knew they were wrong, likely they didn't. They SHOULD have known.

Also, know that I do not think that BPS is doing the community some great service and deserves to be worshipped. They are in the business of selling sporting goods merchandise, mostly hunting/shooting/fishing related for a profit. It's irreleavnt anyways, as BPS's actions are not the issue here.

It's pretty well established that NET "dropped the dime" on BPS. That is the issue here.

So, tell me, counselor, how do 2 wrongs make a right?

I stand by what I said, and frankly speaking, won't do business with NET from the supplier end, because I figure he's not trustworthy, should I make an HONEST mistake. I don't want the headaches associated with doing business with cutthroats that may turn on me later.

And, stuff like this is probably part of the reason Wal-Mart stopped selling firearms (in most stores) and will possibly eventually stop selling ammo.

If NET's concerns were with competition from BPS, he could have simply beat them at their own game. He didn't, did he?

 

[Scrivener]

So, tell me, counselor, how do 2 wrongs make a right?

They don't. Nor did I ever say that they do - it's a wash.

The issue is why one should be praised and the other castigated when both acted out of self-interest, especially where, as here, one acted illegally and the other reacted predictably.

Any other deceased equines we can continue to pointlessly flagellate?

 

[jrbtzx12r]

So, BPS only transferred Glocks and other ON LIST guns and not XD's
or other off list guns? That was the impression I got when this whole
thing came out of the gate.

-Mike

They did have an XD-40 in the case. I'm not sure if they actually sold one though.

I'm honestly torn on the same decision. I did a ton of business with NET prior to the BPS fiasco, and haven't been back since. It stinks since he's the closest Gun Shop in my area, and I enjoyed chatting with Kevin and Fred. I'll probably go back one day, but I doubt I'll do the same amount of business with them.

 

[Nickle]

They don't. Nor did I ever say that they do - it's a wash.

They don't is the right answer.

But, it's not a wash, IMNSHO. They're both WRONG. Just as wrong if they were solely wrong, all by themselves.

All NET really did is lower himself to the other's level. And that was a stupid move, IMNSHO. Yes, I don't have a big love of big box stores myself, and I've found BPS to be over-priced.

Truth be known, I laugh at Wal-Mart selling the same stuff we do. We beat them all day long on some stuff, some stuff they've got good prices, we don't compete, as there's no money in it.

 

[C-pher]

IF that were the case - and it obviously isn't - BPS would have challenged the fiat up front. It didn't. Instead it folded like a cheap card table and scrambled to get back the guns it sold illegally.

Cool, I didn't know that you were working with BPS Corporate. That's good to know. As I've been under the impression that it's not over yet. But what do I know.

 

[vellnueve]

It's not that what Ted did was good; it's that this board has succumbed to the mass delusion that BPS was performing a Public Good.

Have to agree with this

 

[Rob Boudrie]

BPS sold not only Glocks, which are proscribed merely because of the AG's dictat, but also Springfields, which are not and have never been on the AFR.

Wow - thanks for the correction.

 

[ArmedMainer]

That is
Go back up and read prior posts. The AG's jihad against mailorder/internet dealers long predates the NET storefront and is more accurately traced, as has been posted before, to a TV reporter's story about Sportsmen's Guide shipping "ninja weapons" and BB guns to any kid with access to a parent's credit card. Perhaps you don't recall that or, being in Maine, weren't around for that "expose."

Read this post where qmmo states

Well, I do know the dealer in question. This is the third time I know of where he called the AG's office to 'complain'. First time was several years ago about duly licensed MA residents buying ammo out of state and having it shipped to them. The AG's stings followed and you know the rest of the story. Second time was a few months after the first call - complaining about duly licensed MA residents purchasing ammunition components out of state, etc. We all know what happened next. I know about these 2 calls because this dealer told me that he made them (actually the first 'call' was a meeting with the AG himself...). His reason? He was angry that he was losing sales to out of state vendors. Thats right folks. It was all about the U.S. Dollar. Had nothing to do with right or wrong. Nothing to do with integrity, etc. It was, is and always will be about the mighty $$ with him.

This seems to lead in the direction that NET was indeed connected with the AG long before the BPS incident. I wouldn't know personally if he had a storefront when this all took place.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Like others have said...If you REALLY wanted to do it, you would've done it already. The fact that you took the time to start the thread, have a few people tell you to go for it, and you STILL aren't sure...You really don't want to do it, but really want the gun, and would love for someone to help you find the same thing with a similar reasonable price.

So...Tell us what you're looking for and what you want to pay...I'm sure that SOMEONE in the NES community has one and is willing to cut you a decent deal on it. That way you'll not only stick to your convictions, but also help out a fellow NESr!

Before the BPS thing happened I was looking for a Puma stainless steel Lever Action w/ a 24" octagon bbl in 357 mag. These typically go for around $525-$550 for the SS model. NET is a Puma distributor and I had given him my contact info back then if he got this model in. Well, he just got one and because it had a ding in the wood he'd let it go for significantly less.

I'm thinking I'm going to pass though. Getting a discount just doesn't seem worth it in the overall scheme of things here.

 

[dixidawg]

Will you be telling him why you will not be doing business with him?

 

[packingungal]

In the end...

Do the best feeling thing you can...doesn't matter what anyone else says...if you feel good....do it!

 

[RHJJ]

If you can live withself for helping someone that did wrong for us, I hope you sleep well .

 

[NFD9]

It's time for Ted to speak for himself. Perhaps he should be invited as guest speaker at the next NES get together, with the topic being "The dealer's role in the law enforcement process".