Ultimate SHTF rifle???

[G4Y4HK]

12K views · 21 reactions | Idk I'm not your dad. #shorts #tacticon #tacticonarmament #foryou #foryoupage | Tacticon Armament

Idk I'm not your dad. #shorts #tacticon #tacticonarmament #foryou #foryoupage.

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[Coyote33]

We've been over this. This was years ago

Then it had no place in the conversation. This is the apples and oranges I was referring to. Heck, we could compare a Thompson back in 1950 or some other crazy thing. Otherwise, there is no honest answer.

I shop used, mostly. Almost every rifle I own, and ALL of these "deals," came out of the NES classifieds. When I'm in the market, my usual technique is to trawl the Classifieds religiously and make sure I've got cash on hand before I reach out.

Thank you. That helps.

The WASR I bought last year. Same with the PTR91, though I think that was a trade? I've owned many FAL/L1A1 rifles over the years, slowly trading up in quality.

Cool.

"Add to cart" is not how I operate in buying guns, usually.

That was a metaphor for "purchase now" (in today's world). But yeah, I get your point.

So nobody really came up with an answer to what are the alternatives to what was presented, other than "keep an eye on classifieds". In light of that, what was presented wasn't so bad after all.

 

[Picton]

That was a metaphor for "purchase now" (in today's world). But yeah, I get your point.

So nobody really came up with an answer to what are the alternatives to what was presented, other than "keep an eye on classifieds". In light of that, what was presented wasn't so bad after all.

Well, I'll be more blunt then: part of how you get better prices is by becoming known as a prolific buyer and seller of firearms.

Anyone on this site with any degree of feedback knows that feedback stats are undercounted. I suspect sellers know that when an offer comes in from a guy with (say) 10-15 positive deals in his past, and he's being a straight shooter in PMs, and he's not jerking anyone around nor lowballing, and he's got cash in hand and an interest in meeting halfway... these are things that make those decent prices happen, in part.

It's true that the days of monster deals for newbs or retail buyers are over. It's also true that the days of monster deals for me (or people like me) are not quite yet over. It doesn't make my replies any less valid; they're just less applicable to some kinds of buyers.

 

[vcman]

So many comments from people who've never carried a full loadout of 762x51/39 up a hill with a sense of urgency...

How many rd of 308 one need in a real gunfigh i wondering,as i never been to a real shoot out.

 

[SHOCKNAWE]

A high quality AR15 really doesnt need constant maintenance, if it feels sluggish i can pull my bolt back and drop some slip2k or whatever on it and it will continue on as needed. I can honestly say ive never had a notable malfunction that couldnt be attributed to ammo or magazines in all that time.

AR15s being unreliable is absolute FUDD lore. Maybe your AR15 you built out of a bunch of parts you ordered and assembled with a pair of channel locks is unreliable. But ive had those too, and they still worked better than any AK, M14, etc ive ever owned, and they were even accurate.

I think the Fudd Lore about AR's being unreliable comes from the Vietnam guys and the early M16's

My father was over there in 1968, he was a Marine infantry guy, he specifically told me he used to clean his rifle whenever he could because he was worried about it jamming, he also told me that it would get all sorts of malfunctions if he put 20 rounds in his mag, it ran best with 17 rounds he says.

My FN build has about 1500 rounds over the past 3 years and I haven't broken it down to clean it other than wipe the bolt down occasionally and spray it with CLP, no metal cleaning tools of any kind touches my rifle when I clean them, I run a plastic bore line through it with tiny piece of cloth drenched in CLP, I run it through the barrel until there is no black shit on it and it's fine. I haven't had a single malfunction

 

[Picton]

How many rd of 308 one need in a real gunfigh i wondering,as i never been to a real shoot out.

Anyone in the modern US military who's been in a "shootout" with .308 is either a sniper or a machine gunner, so I doubt you'll get a lot of firsthand replies!

I think any hit with .308 is likely to put all but the most motivated adversaries out of the fight. The best evidence I'm aware of comes from places like Rhodesia and the Falklands, or the Aussies in Vietnam, and what I've read from those places suggests that hits are important and disciplined fire is critical, since you can't carry as much x51 as you can other ammo. So the answer to your question is "it depends on the shooter."

I think the Fudd Lore about AR's being unreliable comes from the Vietnam guys and the early M16's

I served LONG after Vietnam. I shot many different M16s and M4s, some old rattletraps from the '60s and others brand-new off the assembly line. One of my M4s, I was literally the first soldier who'd been assigned that rifle since it had come into the system. I was an infantryman for most of my career and my commander believed in marksmanship, so we shot A LOT while he was in charge.

I experienced enough stoppages and had enough other miscellaneous headaches that I decided on something different when I got out. I do own an AR, but mostly just for the sake of having a completely filled safe; I almost never shoot it, though I can still do well with it.

 

[CMEBoston]

How many rd of 308 one need in a real gunfigh i wondering,as i never been to a real shoot out.

Well from what I’ve seen when larpasizing about load outs 5-7 30 round 5.56 mags is typical. So around 200 rounds
M1A 7.62 NATO repack bandoliers were 60 rounds on strippers.
A 7.62 NATO round is about 25 grams 5.56 is about half of that
So you’re carrying 2x as much weight if you’re trying to match a modern 5.56 load out.

FWIW I’m just a dumb fisherman who watches way too much garand thumb and the like….. opinion subject to being wrong

 

[SHOCKNAWE]

Anyone in the modern US military who's been in a "shootout" with .308 is either a sniper or a machine gunner, so I doubt you'll get a lot of firsthand replies!

I think any hit with .308 is likely to put all but the most motivated adversaries out of the fight. The best evidence I'm aware of comes from places like Rhodesia and the Falklands, or the Aussies in Vietnam, and what I've read from those places suggests that hits are important and disciplined fire is critical, since you can't carry as much x51 as you can other ammo. So the answer to your question is "it depends on the shooter."



I served LONG after Vietnam. I shot many different M16s and M4s, some old rattletraps from the '60s and others brand-new off the assembly line. One of my M4s, I was literally the first soldier who'd been assigned that rifle since it had come into the system. I was an infantryman for most of my career and my commander believed in marksmanship, so we shot A LOT while he was in charge.

I experienced enough stoppages and had enough other miscellaneous headaches that I decided on something different when I got out. I do own an AR, but mostly just for the sake of having a completely filled safe; I almost never shoot it, though I can still do well with it.

I got into AR's late, probably around 2013, I was always a strict AK guy al one time I literally had 11 of them and aside from normal AK inaccuracies from my shooting mostly I had very little problems other than when I shot 545x39, all I had for that round was some ammo that was coated with something i can't remember what my buddy told me but the shit would not cycle and I had a nice Saiga, not a shitty rifle by any means but outside of that that I never had any operational complaints.

Since I been an AR guy I can say for sure out of thousands of rounds over the years I might have had a handful of malfunctions but it was definitely magazine or ammo related, I had a couple 10 round plastic mags from some knock off company that won't properly feed but with any of my AR's using my PMags I'd trust my life with, they just work and are just point and shoot accurate.

 

[Picton]

Since I been an AR guy I can say for sure out of thousands of rounds over the years I might have had a handful of malfunctions but it was definitely magazine or ammo related, I had a couple 10 round plastic mags from some knock off company that won't properly feed but with any of my AR's using my PMags I'd trust my life with, they just work and are just point and shoot accurate.

My main reason for non-preferring ARs has to do with maintenance: I do not enjoy cleaning them. I tend not to shoot guns that are harder to maintain; it's why my AKs and my G3 clone get so much range time. The Vz58 cleans easy, too.

On-topic, that would also affect my choice of what to bring with me when SHTF.

 

[SHOCKNAWE]

My main reason for non-preferring ARs has to do with maintenance: I do not enjoy cleaning them. I tend not to shoot guns that are harder to maintain; it's why my AKs and my G3 clone get so much range time. The Vz58 cleans easy, too.

On-topic, that would also affect my choice of what to bring with me when SHTF.

And that's the hot button topic, I do not think modern AR's need all that much maintenance, but I'm not slogging prone in a muddy field involved in firefights either

YouTube has a bunch of videos with mud, snow and dust testing and I've seen plenty of both platforms fail, I think hard drop tests favor the AK over the AR for sure since the rail can get off center if it hits the pavement at the right angle.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

How many rd of 308 one need in a real gunfigh i wondering,as i never been to a real shoot out.

Just as many as you need if you're using 556, until you hit meat, and then probably about the same afterwards.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

I think the Fudd Lore about AR's being unreliable comes from the Vietnam guys and the early M16's

My father was over there in 1968, he was a Marine infantry guy, he specifically told me he used to clean his rifle whenever he could because he was worried about it jamming, he also told me that it would get all sorts of malfunctions if he put 20 rounds in his mag, it ran best with 17 rounds he says.

Yup.

 

[Tartakovsky]

Ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain. How many of you can move dynamically with a full kit and not be gassed after ten minutes? I have to imagine in a SHTF scenario, if you leave shelter, you’re also carrying a plate carrier, and extra gear in addition to a rifle that probably weighs 7-10 lbs and extra magazines, which a combat load out is six + 1 in the rifle, in addition to a pistol secondary and a couple extra mags. You’d also be dumb not to have food and water on you. So figure, you’re larping at least an additional 40 lbs if we’re talking M4. I would only want a 308 if I need to hit and drop a target effectively out past 300 yards. Most engagements would be within 150, and at that distance, I don’t want to run out of ammo or be gassed from moving, or both. If you cannot move quickly when you need to, you’re not going to make it very long in a SHTF scenario. And no, you won’t be grabbing mags off dead bodies in the street, you’re one of them.

 

[Tartakovsky]

I got into AR's late, probably around 2013, I was always a strict AK guy al one time I literally had 11 of them and aside from normal AK inaccuracies from my shooting mostly I had very little problems other than when I shot 545x39, all I had for that round was some ammo that was coated with something i can't remember what my buddy told me but the shit would not cycle and I had a nice Saiga, not a shitty rifle by any means but outside of that that I never had any operational complaints.

Since I been an AR guy I can say for sure out of thousands of rounds over the years I might have had a handful of malfunctions but it was definitely magazine or ammo related, I had a couple 10 round plastic mags from some knock off company that won't properly feed but with any of my AR's using my PMags I'd trust my life with, they just work and are just point and shoot accurate.

Very few of my DI AR stoppages have ever been the rifle itself. Ammunition, magazines, or wrong gassing for the job. Many people don’t know how to tune their gas system with the right spring/buffer combination and can never figure out why they’re not getting their rifle to run right. Some people swear by rifles like Knights simply because they’re built to run because they’re over gassed, and nothing really super special Knights is doing outside the improvements to the bolt and sealed gas system.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Anyone in the modern US military who's been in a "shootout" with .308 is either a sniper or a machine gunner, so I doubt you'll get a lot of firsthand replies!

I think any hit with .308 is likely to put all but the most motivated adversaries out of the fight. The best evidence I'm aware of comes from places like Rhodesia and the Falklands, or the Aussies in Vietnam, and what I've read from those places suggests that hits are important and disciplined fire is critical, since you can't carry as much x51 as you can other ammo. So the answer to your question is "it depends on the shooter."

Part of the reason there has been such a big explosion in the popularity of SPRs (accurized 556 guns) opposed to DMRs is because a lot of sniper/sdm's who've been gunfighting with both 762 and 556 gas rifles in more recent and relevant conflicts, conflicts with far more vetted and analyzed data opposed to fudd anecdotes, over the past two decades, prefer 556 because you can carry more ammo and put more bullets into targets far faster than you can with 762.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain. How many of you can move dynamically with a full kit and not be gassed after ten minutes? I have to imagine in a SHTF scenario, if you leave shelter, you’re also carrying a plate carrier, and extra gear in addition to a rifle that probably weighs 7-10 lbs and extra magazines, which a combat load out is six + 1 in the rifle, in addition to a pistol secondary and a couple extra mags. You’d also be dumb not to have food and water on you. So figure, you’re larping at least an additional 40 lbs if we’re talking M4. I would only want a 308 if I need to hit and drop a target effectively out past 300 yards. Most engagements would be within 150, and at that distance, I don’t want to run out of ammo or be gassed from moving, or both. If you cannot move quickly when you need to, you’re not going to make it very long in a SHTF scenario. And no, you won’t be grabbing mags off dead bodies in the street, you’re one of them.

I always move dynamically bro

 

[SHOCKNAWE]

The SHTF scenario most likely is going to be either government restrictions on firearms and ammo or a home invasion in which most of us at the most normal level of living in suburbia America have a bedside handgun which will get the job done if your lucky enough to survive a gunfight with a home invader.

Packing your shit and bugging out with the family in tow is so unrealistic it's funny, save that for the movies with a bag of popcorn and your CCW

During the Antifa BLM riots if you stayed inside your house and stayed away from the city streets you were probably ok

If the grid goes down, a month worth of food and water is far more important than a safe full of rifles and thousands of rounds of ammo really

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain. How many of you can move dynamically with a full kit and not be gassed after ten minutes? I have to imagine in a SHTF scenario, if you leave shelter, you’re also carrying a plate carrier, and extra gear in addition to a rifle that probably weighs 7-10 lbs and extra magazines, which a combat load out is six + 1 in the rifle, in addition to a pistol secondary and a couple extra mags. You’d also be dumb not to have food and water on you. So figure, you’re larping at least an additional 40 lbs if we’re talking M4.

Im not arguing with your logic as much as just making some points here, but why is 6+1 a standard loadout? Because thats the standard loadout for an army infantryman, who is assumed to operating in a team, squad, platoon, company etc... thats the standard loadout for an infantryman in iraq/afghan in like 04. Its changed. And its not a standard, it fluctuates basedon mettc.

Its certainly not and should not be the standard for a civilian simply leaving his home in whatever shtf fantasy we can envision.

My point is, one lone infantry guy is largely irrelevant in a 'real gunfight' regardless of how much ammo hes carrying, without the othrr members of his team, squad, platoon, company, etc. So i wouldnt base your loadout on what an infantry guy carries, because unless you're rolling with a team, squad, platoon, company etc's worth of homies you aint doing shit.

The best shtf loadout for a civilian simply leaving his home is a healthy understanding that its best to be mobile, not be a target, and to avoid a fight, than it is to try and copy a gwot infantry guy invading a foreign country's setup.

I would only want a 308 if I need to hit and drop a target effectively out past 300 yards. Most engagements would be within 150, and at that distance, I don’t want to run out of ammo or be gassed from moving, or both. If you cannot move quickly when you need to, you’re not going to make it very long in a SHTF scenario. And no, you won’t be grabbing mags off dead bodies in the street, you’re one of them.

Why would most engagements be within 150 yds? We trying to die bruh? Any a**h*** can be deadly inside 150 yds. If shtf and im dumb enough to be out on the streets im not fighting anybody inside of like 600 unless i absolutely have to and if that happens im gonna be actively trying to break contact/create space so i can gtfo of whoever im fighting's high probability of kill zone.

 

[APFSDS]

No i hate adjustable gas blocks.

No idea if its overgassed, probably.

They do kinda suck but unless your rifles are dedicated to a specific ammo, or suppressor host, they’re a necessary evil.

Gotcha, so no parts breakages? Bolt lugs etc? I am going to convert my 10.5" low to mid-tier upper I had on my MA friendly SBR into my training rifle so I'm not putting wear on my 12.5" BCM SHTF rifle. The 10.5" was overgassed to begin with, and I can imagine it will be even more so when i dremel off the stupid pin and weld linear comp and put a brake mount + can on it. I had to put the heaviest buffer i could find in it to get it ejecting at 90 degrees, so it's gonna be sending brass into low orbit with a suppressor on it lol. I don't want to have a bunch of pats breakages cause i am going to be shooting it in classes etc.

 

[Dcdr]

The SHTF scenario most likely is going to be either government restrictions on firearms and ammo or a home invasion in which most of us at the most normal level of living in suburbia America have a bedside handgun which will get the job done if your lucky enough to survive a gunfight with a home invader.

Packing your shit and bugging out with the family in tow is so unrealistic it's funny, save that for the movies with a bag of popcorn and your CCW

During the Antifa BLM riots if you stayed inside your house and stayed away from the city streets you were probably ok

If the grid goes down, a month worth of food and water is far more important than a safe full of rifles and thousands of rounds of ammo really

This

 

[Picton]

Packing your shit and bugging out with the family in tow is so unrealistic it's funny, save that for the movies with a bag of popcorn and your CCW

But... but... I want it to be like Red Dawn...

My illusions are shattered.

...wolverines.

 

[AJK129]

But... but... I want it to be like Red Dawn...

My illusions are shattered.

...wolverines.

If Red Dawn were filmed today, this is bugging out to the mountains

 

[PatMcD]

The SHTF scenario most likely is going to be either government restrictions on firearms and ammo or a home invasion in which most of us at the most normal level of living in suburbia America have a bedside handgun which will get the job done if your lucky enough to survive a gunfight with a home invader.

Packing your shit and bugging out with the family in tow is so unrealistic it's funny, save that for the movies with a bag of popcorn and your CCW

During the Antifa BLM riots if you stayed inside your house and stayed away from the city streets you were probably ok

If the grid goes down, a month worth of food and water is far more important than a safe full of rifles and thousands of rounds of ammo really

You just limped a bunch of NES Tactical Larper boners.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Gotcha, so no parts breakages? Bolt lugs etc? I am going to convert my 10.5" low to mid-tier upper I had on my MA friendly SBR into my training rifle so I'm not putting wear on my 12.5" BCM SHTF rifle. The 10.5" was overgassed to begin with, and I can imagine it will be even more so when i dremel off the stupid pin and weld linear comp and put a brake mount + can on it. I had to put the heaviest buffer i could find in it to get it ejecting at 90 degrees, so it's gonna be sending brass into low orbit with a suppressor on it lol. I don't want to have a bunch of pats breakages cause i am going to be shooting it in classes etc.

I havent broken anything, its a factory SR15 idk anything about anything really, it ejects at like 1 oclock i think. I personally dont ever want to work on guns or desire to know anything about them outside of initial failure diags and field fixes. If it runs consistently and is accurate ill f*** with it.

 

[AJK129]

I havent broken anything, its a factory SR15 idk anything about anything really, it ejects at like 1 oclock i think. I personally dont ever want to work on guns or desire to know anything about them outside of initial failure diags and field fixes. If it runs consistently and is accurate ill f*** with it.

This is why I like buying complete rifles (or at minimum a full upper). Im not trying to play gunsmith, I just wanna shoot

 

[PappyM3]

How many rd of 308 one need in a real gunfigh i wondering,as i never been to a real shoot out.

Depends on a lot of factors. Are you using a precision rifle, battle rifle, or an MG? Are you trying to break through cinderblock cover? How many are you in a gunfight against? Do you have a maneuvering element you’re providing suppressive fire for? How far away is the threat/s?

 

[Broc Tuah]

My main reason for non-preferring ARs has to do with maintenance: I do not enjoy cleaning them. I tend not to shoot guns that are harder to maintain; it's why my AKs and my G3 clone get so much range time. The Vz58 cleans easy, too.

On-topic, that would also affect my choice of what to bring with me when SHTF.

Cleaning an AR is one of the easiest things to do.

An AK might be just a bit easier, but on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being super easy, an AK might be a 2, the AR a 2.5 and a bolt action a 1.

It doesn't get much easier than pushing a pin from left to right and taking the BCG out.

One thing I love about an AR and think is brilliant, is how easy it is to take apart. I wish an AK could be separated from a receiver that easy.

 

[PappyM3]

Well from what I’ve seen when larpasizing about load outs 5-7 30 round 5.56 mags is typical. So around 200 rounds
M1A 7.62 NATO repack bandoliers were 60 rounds on strippers.
A 7.62 NATO round is about 25 grams 5.56 is about half of that
So you’re carrying 2x as much weight if you’re trying to match a modern 5.56 load out.

FWIW I’m just a dumb fisherman who watches way too much garand thumb and the like….. opinion subject to being wrong

The XM7 proposed combat load is 140 rounds of 6.8x51

An M240 team will carry ~1k rounds of 7.62x51

I’m not sure of the current doctrine for the Army’s M110A1 combat load of 7.62x51.

Edit: but as mentioned in my previous comment, non-military gunfight needs are “it depends”

 

[Broc Tuah]

The SHTF scenario most likely is going to be either government restrictions on firearms and ammo or a home invasion in which most of us at the most normal level of living in suburbia America have a bedside handgun which will get the job done if your lucky enough to survive a gunfight with a home invader.

Packing your shit and bugging out with the family in tow is so unrealistic it's funny, save that for the movies with a bag of popcorn and your CCW

During the Antifa BLM riots if you stayed inside your house and stayed away from the city streets you were probably ok

If the grid goes down, a month worth of food and water is far more important than a safe full of rifles and thousands of rounds of ammo really

Don't forget all the meds. Realistically, how many people can survive a few weeks without whatever meds they are taking?

Lets not forget exercise. There are some many people overweight with knee problems and other problems that in their mind think they will be able to carry 70lbs because 30 years ago they could. It is laughable how delusional a lot of the SHTF crowd are.

Finally, where will they go? ... LOL

 

[dcmdon]

Depends on a lot of factors. Are you using a precision rifle, battle rifle, or an MG? Are you trying to break through cinderblock cover? How many are you in a gunfight against? Do you have a maneuvering element you’re providing suppressive fire for? How far away is the threat/s?

I like .223. It's light enough to carry thousands of rounds easily in a car. Or hundreds on your back.

My long reloads with 75 gr ELD bullets can be single loaded into an AR for long distance work and are still supersonic at 800 yards. Good for close, good for reasonably far.
I'd much rather have a .223 with 500 of my precision reloads and the balance of 100 lbs of ammo than 100 lbs of .308.

If I was limited to only 1 rifle, I'd have a spare lower parts kit and a spare bolt carrier group with 2 parts kits for the bolt.

Re reliability. I've never had stoppage problems with an AR if it was reasonably lubed. Dirty and wet runs fine. Dirty and dry you start to lose margin.