.223 Words of Advice?

That wasn't aimed at you. Lukewarm fuzz and I have been having a good-natured debate on the consistency of this ammo.
Obviously, a 0.00 SD would be optimal, but I'm just saying the perceived "inconsistency" is likely to not really matter in real-world applications.

How SD affects drop is essentially a square or cube (I forget) function of the range.
A quick example using my Kestrel and a random 62 gr .223 round shows a
difference in elevation between 2970 and 3000 fps with a 100 yard zero of
1) 0.2 in at 200 yards.
2) 26 inches at 1000 yards
3) 106 inches at 1500 yards. ****SO THAT'S 11 FT OF elevation VARIATION FOR A 30 FPS EXTREME SPREAD in MV*****

At 100 yards, the bullet is just beginning to accelerate downward.

At 1500 yards it has more than a second to accelerate downward.

My reloads with uniformed cases and hand measured powder are almost all below 5 fps SD.

My reloads with headstamp sorted brass and powder dumped on a Dillon 550 are in the 15 to 25 fps range. Depending on the brand (and uniformity)) of the brass.
 
How SD affects drop is essentially a square or cube (I forget) function of the range.
A quick example using my Kestrel and a random 62 gr .223 round shows a
difference in elevation between 2970 and 3000 fps with a 100 yard zero of
1) 0.2 in at 200 yards.
2) 26 inches at 1000 yards
3) 106 inches at 1500 yards. ****SO THAT'S 11 FT OF elevation VARIATION FOR A 30 FPS EXTREME SPREAD in MV*****

At 100 yards, the bullet is just beginning to accelerate downward.

At 1500 yards it has more than a second to accelerate downward.

My reloads with uniformed cases and hand measured powder are almost all below 5 fps SD.

My reloads with headstamp sorted brass and powder dumped on a Dillon 550 are in the 15 to 25 fps range. Depending on the brand (and uniformity)) of the brass.
Yep. Remember we're taking about 77gr factory ammo. 300 is as far as I am willing to shoot 77's. Up to that distance, 30fps is negligible. I'll shoot 77's at 600 ONLY if I don't have anything heavier loaded. 1000 and 1500? Forget it; pissing in the wind.
 
Yep. Remember we're taking about 77gr factory ammo. 300 is as far as I am willing to shoot 77's. Up to that distance, 30fps is negligible. I'll shoot 77's at 600 ONLY if I don't have anything heavier loaded. 1000 and 1500? Forget it; pissing in the wind.

I realize. The difference in elevation is pretty much the same at those distances for something like a .308 also.

I'm sure the difference is less for a .300 PRC but my point is just that the elevation variation with MV gets HUGE at longer distances.

Not that anyone would ever try to shoot a .223 at 1500 yards. I should have looked at the MV at 1500 yards when I had it up on the screen. I'm guessing in the 500 fps range.

***edit - ha. 228 fps at 1400 yards.
 
I realize. The difference in elevation is pretty much the same at those distances for something like a .308 also.

I'm sure the difference is less for a .300 PRC but my point is just that the elevation variation with MV gets HUGE at longer distances.

Not that anyone would ever try to shoot a .223 at 1500 yards. I should have looked at the MV at 1500 yards when I had it up on the screen. I'm guessing in the 500 fps range.

***edit - ha. 228 fps at 1400 yards.
Yes. 1000 is a stretch for .223 if any accuracy is expected. 88 or 90 grain bullets.
 
Yep. Remember we're taking about 77gr factory ammo. 300 is as far as I am willing to shoot 77's. Up to that distance, 30fps is negligible. I'll shoot 77's at 600 ONLY if I don't have anything heavier loaded. 1000 and 1500? Forget it; pissing in the wind.
Yeah I think that’s the key point here, the inconsistencies become more important for people who shoot long range.

My issue is I’ll have lots that run single digit SDs and 1” groups, then other that have 30+ SDs and 2-3” groups. It’s highly variable in my experience, and clearly delineated one lot to another. FWIW the internet at large also generally reports seeing the same.
 
Has anyone tried the cheap scorpio svt .223 ammo?
Reviews seem mixed. Some report no issues. Others report blown/thin primers. To the OP: If I were shooting a quality rifle, I would avoid "questionable" brands until tried and true. I had a Ruger M77 in 7.62x39, but did not shoot the steel-cased surplus in it, even though it probably could have.
 
Yep. Remember we're taking about 77gr factory ammo. 300 is as far as I am willing to shoot 77's. Up to that distance, 30fps is negligible. I'll shoot 77's at 600 ONLY if I don't have anything heavier loaded. 1000 and 1500? Forget it; pissing in the wind.

Many many people shoot 77gr out at 600 yards, because all they do is shoot mag-length loads. Hell, lots of people shoot/shot 62gr M855 and M855A1 out to 600 meters too.
 
Many many people shoot 77gr out at 600 yards, because all they do is shoot mag-length loads. Hell, lots of people shoot/shot 62gr M855 and M855A1 out to 600 meters too.
I know SOME people do. They're not winning anything, though.
Anybody shooting 855 or 855A1 out to 600 aren't hitting much. Most ranges ban it because it inaccurate to the point that it won't keep rounds on the target.
 
I know SOME people do. They're not winning anything, though.
Anybody shooting 855 or 855A1 out to 600 aren't hitting much. Most ranges ban it because it inaccurate to the point that it won't keep rounds on the target.

For other competitions besides Highpower, there are Run n’ Guns, Quantified Performance, Tactical Games, DMR matches, etc. Lots of people shooting 5.56 out to mid-range and using mag-length cartridges. Frequently 70-77gr.

Outside of competition, lots of people are taking courses like those offered up at Ridgeline in NH for scoped carbines. Or just setting up targets in farm land or BLM land.

But while you’re at Perry, go talk with some of the AMU guys about their SDM course during GWOT. Lots of guys put 62gr 5.56 on e-type silhouettes out at 600 yards. Granted, that was a lower hit percentage than with Mk262… because 62gr FMJ. But the hits were still made and got better as students learned the wind holds. Using free floated 20” Douglas match barrels helped.

Now, when shooting mag length 5.56 at 600 in wind, sure you may not get a first round impact on a silhouette target. But you can easily adjust on a second shot.

Yes, in Highpower every inch of POI shift due to miscalculated wind or crazy crossing gusts in Ohio can mean lost points, so yeah eeking out max wind resistance in your cartridge is the best choice. But for the rest of the applications for 5.56, 77gr SMK is still very very capable of making reliable and repeatable hits on target at 600. What a good SD does is take elevation error out of the equation so you can focus on windage and solid fundamentals instead of trying to figure out if a low or high shot was the ammo or bad range estimation.

Edit: I would say there are more people shooting 5.56 at newer gas-gun focused matches, scoped carbine style courses, and just out in BLM land around the country than people competing in Highpower. Highpower is the minority, though I wish it were more popular.
 
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I'd spring the extra 20 cents a box for 62g, provided your range allows steel core.


55gr M193 is better than 62gr M855 for civilian uses, in my opinion

- Better range ammo because you don’t need to worry about a steel penetrator

- More consistent terminal performance in tissue, much less reliant on fleet yaw and therefore less likely to ice pick like M855

Now, M855 does have a slightly higher BC, but to be real, neither has good BC. If one is thinking of BC, the 69gr+ BTHP should be looked at before M855. The M855 does also perform better if you need to turn cinder block cover into concealment. But there are better options for that and it’s pretty danged low on the priority list for civilians.
 
55gr M193 is better than 62gr M855 for civilian uses, in my opinion

- Better range ammo because you don’t need to worry about a steel penetrator

- More consistent terminal performance in tissue, much less reliant on fleet yaw and therefore less likely to ice pick like M855

Now, M855 does have a slightly higher BC, but to be real, neither has good BC. If one is thinking of BC, the 69gr+ BTHP should be looked at before M855. The M855 does also perform better if you need to turn cinder block cover into concealment. But there are better options for that and it’s pretty danged low on the priority list for civilians.

agreed across the board, but 10% more weight is 10% more weight for a penny more per round. Rather have stacked M855/SS109 than M193 personally. and it's worth experimenting with for purpose of accuracy.

Give me green tip all day and twice on sunday in SHTF too.
 
For other competitions besides Highpower, there are Run n’ Guns, Quantified Performance, Tactical Games, DMR matches, etc. Lots of people shooting 5.56 out to mid-range and using mag-length cartridges. Frequently 70-77gr.

Outside of competition, lots of people are taking courses like those offered up at Ridgeline in NH for scoped carbines. Or just setting up targets in farm land or BLM land.

But while you’re at Perry, go talk with some of the AMU guys about their SDM course during GWOT. Lots of guys put 62gr 5.56 on e-type silhouettes out at 600 yards. Granted, that was a lower hit percentage than with Mk262… because 62gr FMJ. But the hits were still made and got better as students learned the wind holds. Using free floated 20” Douglas match barrels helped.

Now, when shooting mag length 5.56 at 600 in wind, sure you may not get a first round impact on a silhouette target. But you can easily adjust on a second shot.

Yes, in Highpower every inch of POI shift due to miscalculated wind or crazy crossing gusts in Ohio can mean lost points, so yeah eeking out max wind resistance in your cartridge is the best choice. But for the rest of the applications for 5.56, 77gr SMK is still very very capable of making reliable and repeatable hits on target at 600. What a good SD does is take elevation error out of the equation so you can focus on windage and solid fundamentals instead of trying to figure out if a low or high shot was the ammo or bad range estimation.

Edit: I would say there are more people shooting 5.56 at newer gas-gun focused matches, scoped carbine style courses, and just out in BLM land around the country than people competing in Highpower. Highpower is the minority, though I wish it were more popular.
OK, you got me. Yes, there are some instances where a mag-length round is used out to 600. The NIT (Rattle-Battle) is probably the best known on a national scale (our team plans on using the AAC 77's for this!).
Also, the AMU actually did use a 77gr bullet across the course up until a few years ago, but that was mostly due to ease of loading one round for multiple rifles. But those men and women are not like us mere mortals: I'll take (buy) every advantage I can get.
My NG friend, who is also a competitive rifle shooters, takes a unit down to the Wilson Matches most years. When he comes back, I have to listen to him bitch about how bad the ammo (and the rifles) suck. He claims using their issued rifles, he could train them up 10X faster if they had decent ammo that actually had predictable results.
I don't think there is any range with electronic scoring targets that allows 62 grain at 600. The sensors are on the corners, about 6 feet apart, and the ammo can't reliably stay inside that.

We (me) have gone way off on a tangent. A question was asked about 223 ammo. I suggested (or concurred with, i forget) AAC 77's. I think it's one of the best factory "heavy" loads you can buy, at a great price. I stand by that.
 
Well. This thread along with my post in the other thread asking about what 22cal to build has me on the 223 bandwagon.

Time to order a barrel and bolt to build out a Zeus action that I have sitting around.
 
OK, you got me. Yes, there are some instances where a mag-length round is used out to 600. The NIT (Rattle-Battle) is probably the best known on a national scale (our team plans on using the AAC 77's for this!).
Also, the AMU actually did use a 77gr bullet across the course up until a few years ago, but that was mostly due to ease of loading one round for multiple rifles. But those men and women are not like us mere mortals: I'll take (buy) every advantage I can get.
My NG friend, who is also a competitive rifle shooters, takes a unit down to the Wilson Matches most years. When he comes back, I have to listen to him bitch about how bad the ammo (and the rifles) suck. He claims using their issued rifles, he could train them up 10X faster if they had decent ammo that actually had predictable results.
I don't think there is any range with electronic scoring targets that allows 62 grain at 600. The sensors are on the corners, about 6 feet apart, and the ammo can't reliably stay inside that.

We (me) have gone way off on a tangent. A question was asked about 223 ammo. I suggested (or concurred with, i forget) AAC 77's. I think it's one of the best factory "heavy" loads you can buy, at a great price. I stand by that.

The point behind the tangent is essentially two fold:

* Lots of people are taking mag length 5.56 out to 600 or longer these days and it’s happening mostly in activities not related to NRA Highpower or CMP, and they need loads that are consistent at those ranges

* AAC loaded 77gr may not be a great choice for the very very many people who take 5.56 out to mid range with mag length cartridges. At 300, it may be fine, but if you’re shooting out to 500-700, I would highly recommend a better loaded option. And by better loaded, I don’t mean the bullet, but the consistency in the load.

I get it though, if someone is trying to supply an entire junior rifle team with ammo, then yeah I’m sure that’s the best bang for your buck with good enough results. Totally understand that. I’d probably go the same route. 50c a round for 77gr BTHP is a great option compared to everything else that’s offered at 50c a round, which is usually much worse.
 
Or ship to the Salem NH UPS Store. No heads up needed. No account needed. Done it a dozen times
That's smart. Opticsplanet wouldn't ship 30 round mags to me in Maine cause I forgot to update my Paypal 'billing address' which was still in MA lol.
 
That wasn't aimed at you. Lukewarm fuzz and I have been having a good-natured debate on the consistency of this ammo.
Obviously, a 0.00 SD would be optimal, but I'm just saying the perceived "inconsistency" is likely to not really matter in real-world applications.
I went out today and did some shooting just for you- this doesn’t deserve its own post so I’ll just drop it in here as a PSA PSA (lol)

I shot the below 10 round groups back to back out of the same rifle, with time for the thing to cool. Two lots of AAC 77 OTM purchased 3-4 months apart.

Velocity trends were actually pretty similar across both which I wasn’t anticipating. Just FYSA.
 

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I went out today and did some shooting just for you- this doesn’t deserve its own post so I’ll just drop it in here as a PSA PSA (lol)

I shot the below 10 round groups back to back out of the same rifle, with time for the thing to cool. Two lots of AAC 77 OTM purchased 3-4 months apart.

Velocity trends were actually pretty similar across both which I wasn’t anticipating. Just FYSA.
what rifle? distance?
 
I like to find the best round for every barrel. I would shoot for accuracy trying 55 grain, 62 grain, 68 grain and 77 grain.
One of these is going to be more accurate than the others. After you decide which you can stock up. Try different brands before you buy in bulk.
 
So I'm getting my first bolt action 223, buying from a fellow NESer - really looking forward to it. But I've been strictly a handgun person. Anything I should know about 223.. any brands preferred or those I should stay away from? I ordered a few boxes from TS, mostly federal flaavors, just 1 box of each to sample.
Thanks.
As long as the firearm isn't some name none of us have heard of, it's pretty hard to not have a decent shooting .223. At 50 to 100 yards, you really can't go wrong. If you start reaching out past that, then you might need to upgrade the bullet. Being a bolt action, less likely to have shot out the barrel being 'foolish' with rapid ammo expending.

I'm fond of saying most guns outshoot the shooter, don't overthink it. Have fun. Lots of solid work you can put in that will translate to semi-autos when you make the jump.
 
That's smart. Opticsplanet wouldn't ship 30 round mags to me in Maine cause I forgot to update my Paypal 'billing address' which was still in MA lol.
It takes 5 minutes to change your billing address in PayPal or with your credit cards using their apps or web pages.

Do the order, wait until it ships, then change it back. I do that all the time when shipping things to my place in NH.
 
As long as the firearm isn't some name none of us have heard of, it's pretty hard to not have a decent shooting .223. At 50 to 100 yards, you really can't go wrong. If you start reaching out past that, then you might need to upgrade the bullet. Being a bolt action, less likely to have shot out the barrel being 'foolish' with rapid ammo expending.

I'm fond of saying most guns outshoot the shooter, don't overthink it. Have fun. Lots of solid work you can put in that will translate to semi-autos when you make the jump.
Not everyone cares or intends to “make the jump”. Lots of folks are happy with bolt guns because they do certain things better than most semi-autos and making a jump would be more like making a fall.
 
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