• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

3D printed guns

Rating - 96.7%
29   1   0
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
2,722
Likes
2,327
Location
Missouri
"Certainly, it's possible to 3D print a gun specifically designed to kill people (as opposed to target shooting or hunting)"

I just felt my IQ drop. Stopped reading after that. I didn't want to risk getting any dumber.
 

Kevin_NH

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
9,315
Likes
3,329
Location
WNW of MHT
I'm shocked that BoingBoing didn't use this as an excuse to link to Cory's 2007 short story, Printcrime.

Here's the direct link to Arvix: [1803.07544] C3PO: Database and Benchmark for Early-stage Malicious Activity Detection in 3D Printing


The big question is, would this work like Ken Thompson's compiler backdoor?
That is, if I use a 3-D printer to print an open source 3-D printer (a very popular application of the technology), will my new "child" printer also have the functionality to detect and block attempts to print "banned" objects? How? Looking for "guns" is orders of magnitude more complex than the EURion constellation and will be that much more compute-intensive than the "secret" binary blob in every color copier (and every copy of Photoshop).

Assuming blacklisting works at all (Short of inventing AI, doubtful) this sort of "you can't print that!" system is going to be both prone to false positives, and ripe for abuse.

Sadly, USSC denied cert for Defense Distributed v. Dep’t of State, so for now the State Department can continue to send takedown notices for public release of CAD models of anything that flies too close to ITAR, so you'll still have to go to The Pirate Bay for your downloadable printable firearms.
 
Last edited:

namedpipes

NES Member
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
38,164
Likes
29,713
Location
The foothills of Monadnock
"Certainly, it's possible to 3D print a gun specifically designed to kill people (as opposed to target shooting or hunting)"

I just felt my IQ drop. Stopped reading after that. I didn't want to risk getting any dumber.

I read that as, yeah, it's "possible" to print a working gun, but it probably won't work for very long and definitely not at any great distance.

Something like the WWII Liberator is extremely doable though. A gun that is cheap and easy to make and is good enough to let you "take" a better one.
 

namedpipes

NES Member
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
38,164
Likes
29,713
Location
The foothills of Monadnock
I'm shocked that BoingBoing didn't use this as an excuse to link to Cory's 2007 short story, Printcrime.

Here's the direct link to Arvix: [1803.07544] C3PO: Database and Benchmark for Early-stage Malicious Activity Detection in 3D Printing


The big question is, would this work like Ken Thompson's compiler backdoor?
That is, if I use a 3-D printer to print an open source 3-D printer (a very popular application of the technology), will my new "child" printer also have the functionality to detect and block attempts to print "banned" objects? How? Looking for "guns" is orders of magnitude more complex than the EURion constellation and will be that much more compute-intensive than the "secret" binary blob in every color copier (and every copy of Photoshop).

Assuming blacklisting works at all (Short of inventing AI, doubtful) this sort of "you can't print that!" system is going to be both prone to false positives, and ripe for abuse.

Sadly, USSC denied cert for Defense Distributed v. Dep’t of State, so for now the State Department can continue to send takedown notices for public release of CAD models of anything that flies too close to ITAR, so you'll still have to go to The Pirate Bay for your downloadable printable firearms.

Or a website hosted outside of the USA.

Gun designs are almost as available as porn on the internet. The information genie is so far out of the bottle it can never be put back in.
 

MGnoob

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
4,595
Likes
2,652
It seemed like an over technical explanation of how it won't work and even if it did work that it would be easily overcome.

Its about as flawed as the concept of gun control in general, which will never work.
 

Kevin_NH

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
9,315
Likes
3,329
Location
WNW of MHT
Defense Distributed's DEFCAD had thousands of files for download before the gov't got on their case. They've recently relaunched two websites:
  • DEFCAD is a public repository of blueprints, free to use.
  • LEGIO Membership appears to be DefDist's ILA

DEFCAD downloads will require registration, will not charge, downloads start August 1st. I'm interested in seeing the quality of the files Cody Wilson makes available, and new Ghost Gunner capabilities.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jul 18, 2018
Messages
1,079
Likes
957
DEFCAD.com is now live, with downloadable .zip files (except in New Jersey).

Full site goes live on August 1st, including uploads. Most of the interesting files are in the .SLDPRT format, so you need Solidworks or a conversion tool like eDrawings if you want to use these to print or mill.
I wonder what the cost is to print a working firearm ? I have no clue about computers
 

Kevin_NH

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
9,315
Likes
3,329
Location
WNW of MHT
I wonder what the cost is to print a working firearm ? I have no clue about computers
Assuming you already own the printer, then the unit cost would be time & materials. I've seen estimates of $25

So for $25 you could run off a complete single-shot Liberator on a $500 printer (just add nail), or a functional AR lower receiver on a much more expensive printer.
 

namedpipes

NES Member
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
38,164
Likes
29,713
Location
The foothills of Monadnock
Assuming you already own the printer, then the unit cost would be time & materials. I've seen estimates of $25

So for $25 you could run off a complete single-shot Liberator on a $500 printer (just add nail), or a functional AR lower receiver on a much more expensive printer.

That's just about bang on.

Probably closer to $10 in media, but the "practice" runs will take a spool or two [laugh]

Successful prints, at least on DIY printers, is more of an art form than a given.

An AR lower, good enough to fire a shot or two, maybe a little less in media.

"Printing" a gun is absolutely possible, but it's more of a novelty / cool thing, than a practical concept.

That might change when we can buy a metal printing printer for < $1k.
 

Rob Boudrie

NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
39,888
Likes
19,358
3D printing materials (spools of plastic wire) are priced at many, many times that of consumer products made of a similar plastic. Parts that would cost cents to make on an injection molding machine with bulk bead plastic can easily cost dollars or tens of dollars on a 3D printer. It's the same model as inkjet printer cartridges.
 

namedpipes

NES Member
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
38,164
Likes
29,713
Location
The foothills of Monadnock
3D printing materials (spools of plastic wire) are priced at many, many times that of consumer products made of a similar plastic. Parts that would cost cents to make on an injection molding machine with bulk bead plastic can easily cost dollars or tens of dollars on a 3D printer. It's the same model as inkjet printer cartridges.

Yes, 3d is MUCH more expensive that cast plastic or injection molding.

Still a 1lb roll prints a couple of Liberator sized pistols or several AR lowers. (you'd need at least one AR lower for each shot [laugh])

That is $15 - $20 for a spool of run of the mill PLA.

Now, cast the same part in an advanced plastic and it will survive hundreds / thousands of rounds. See Boris's Tutti-Fruity thread on cast plastic lowers.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
4,512
Likes
3,960
Location
Merrimack Valley
Interesting twist- seems New Jerseynhas blocked access to the site for their state.


So much for "Muh Net Neuralitay" guess it only applies when its desireable content.
 

Kevin_NH

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
9,315
Likes
3,329
Location
WNW of MHT
Prices aren't bad when you compare the price for 1kg of filament to the retail price of bead plastic in a tiny 1kg package.

Nearly every machine now accepts standard 3mm or 1.75mm PLA/ABS/PETG; it's closer to buying ink by the liter than buying inkjet printer cartridges. And just like inkjet refilling, there are now $300 machines to convert bulk bead plastic into filament.

Interesting twist- seems New Jerseynhas blocked access to the site for their state. So much for "Muh Net Neuralitay" guess it only applies when its desireable content.
Apparently Cody has blocked his own website in NJ?

3D printing materials (spools of plastic wire) are priced at many, many times that of consumer products made of a similar plastic. Parts that would cost cents to make on an injection molding machine with bulk bead plastic can easily cost dollars or tens of dollars on a 3D printer. It's the same model as inkjet printer cartridges.
Well yeah, the original term for 3D printers was rapid prototyping machine.

An injection molding machine is unbelievable expensive when you're making just one or two of something. A one-off part that would cost dollars of tens of dollars on a 3D printer can easily cost thousands or tens of thousands to make on an injection molding machine.
 
Last edited:

namedpipes

NES Member
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
38,164
Likes
29,713
Location
The foothills of Monadnock
Interesting twist- seems New Jerseynhas blocked access to the site for their state.


So much for "Muh Net Neuralitay" guess it only applies when its desireable content.

I expect anyone that has an interest in the files already has them and has had them for years... This is a matter of LEGAL access to the files.

it's utterly trivial to go around any sort of blocking of that type.
 

DispositionMatrix

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Messages
3,990
Likes
1,318
Location
SoNH
I expect anyone that has an interest in the files already has them and has had them for years...
Yep.
This is a matter of LEGAL access to the files.
Nope. The settlement was _only_ about Defense Distributed's inability to host the files on its website, per ITAR. The files were already distributable and most already have been distributed. The State Department restriction was not brought against other organizations. You have had legal access to Defense Distributed's files and those of others since they were first released into the wild.

So the current whinging is a non-issue by which firearm prohibitionists and government officials can signal their virtue.
 

Kevin_NH

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
9,315
Likes
3,329
Location
WNW of MHT
Update: Defense Distributed is now blocking New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Also, DD and the Second Amendment Foundation have sued the attorney general of New Jersey and the city attorney of Los Angeles.

Reason.com said:
Defense Distributed was informed by the state of Pennsylvania that it was seeking a temporary restraining order in federal court to stop it from distributing weapon-making files in that state. During an emergency telephone hearing before U.S. District Judge Paul Diamond (which lawyer Josh Blackman had to participate in from a United Airlines lounge at LaGuardia Airport), Defense Distributed agreed to, at least through next week, voluntarily block Pennsylvania I.P. addresses until the legal issue can be resolved. As Wilson told Philly.com, despite that, he will "fight any effort by state officials to seek a permanent ban. 'Americans have the right to this data, Wilson said. 'We have the right to share it. Pennsylvania has no right to come in and tell us what we can and can't share on the internet."
 

DispositionMatrix

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Messages
3,990
Likes
1,318
Location
SoNH
I'll bet someone at a 3 letter agency is tracking the IPs of everyone who downloads the files.
What about all the people who downloaded them five years ago and all the ensuing peer-to-peer transfers?

And what about all the people who downloaded files _not_ generated by Defense Distributed?
 

cockpitbob

NES Member
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
12,728
Likes
5,780
Location
North of Boston
...proposes that 3D printers could come pre-installed with a database of hundreds of thousands of images that they would attempt to match to print-jobs to determine whether they were being asked to make a gun...
People are so much more creative than these idiots give us credit for. My first thought was, if this goes through it will be cool! Just imagine the designs people will come up with to get around the database and image recognition stuff! We'll see truly unique mechanism that were never thought of before, and they'll come up with guns that look like nothing we've seen before.

Oh, and of course having an open source 3D printer, which most of the home ones are, would have to become illegal.
 

garandman

Instructor
NES Member
Rating - 90%
9   1   0
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
15,798
Likes
6,456
Location
Dorchester MA / Sullivan County NH
I wonder what the cost is to print a working firearm ? I have no clue about computers
Depends if you want to build a plastic gimmick. Or something functional.

Generally, it would be many times more costly to 3D print a gun using a metal 3D printer than stopping by a local hardware store or machine shop. The M1911 metal printed in Texas (which Ive seen in person) probably cost $40-50,000.

The value of Wilson’s project is to demonstrate that most people don’t 3D print guns to commit crimes, so a stack of laws wil not affect public safety.
 

Rob Boudrie

NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
39,888
Likes
19,358
Channel 5 reported Maura is getting in on the bandwagon trying to restrict this information.

A to product "blacklisting", it already exists.

- Color printers are programmed to detect and stop attempts to print US Currency
- Color copiers print identification dots (light yellow) to register the copy to the currency. Reminds me of an immigrant from the USSR who told me a typing sample was kept from every typewriter, much like handgun shell casings going to the govt in NY.
- Drones are GPS programmed not to fly into restricted airspace
 
Top Bottom