If that cop isn't living and working under and governed by the UCMJ, HE TOO is a civilian.
He obviously has some misunderstanding of the difference between the definition of civilian and military.
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45ACP obsolete?
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He obviously has some misunderstanding of the difference between the definition of civilian and military.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
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The capacity argument is irrelevant in Massachussets. In free states, the argument is also ridiculous. Modern 45's have plenty of capacity. If the argument of capacity capacity uses a 100-year-old pistol design and compares it to a gun released in the last 10 years, you are lying to yourself and others. FN FNX 45, for example, was released in 2012 and has a 15+1 standard capacity.
It is also laughable when 9mm in 147gr by a specific manufacturer was found to be "adequate". Now everyone thinks that any 9mm HP is superior to 45's. In reality, everyone is shooting lightweight 115gr garbage ball ammo. Yeah, your 9mm is superior. It goes well with your Starbucks double decaf chai latte.
The fact is, ammo use is a popularity contest. It changes every decade. Look at the recent trends. 300 Blackout came on the scene in 2010 and since then has been outperforming 223 in 10.5", CQB type of weapon game. 8.6 Blackout is now doing the same by taking on the 308. Heavy means it can go slow and deliver more energy on target. Slow means subsonic. Subsonic means suppressed. World is slowly swinging back to heavy and slow bullets, and for a good reason: they work!
9mm is cheap because manufacturers actively try to "streamline" the pistol caliber market. The cost of switching calibers on a production line can be eliminated if only one caliber is produced. The actual materials cost difference between 9 and 45 is about 15-20%, yet the prices are 100% higher. So you tell me: are you a lemming following what the companies tell you, or are you a consumer who tells the companies what they should be producing!?
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I agree with the weight point, but I don't think bringing up "capacity" as an argument when one is "behind the wire" is irrelevant.
The capacity argument is absolutely relevant - first of all, I frequently carry 15+1 in MA, and second of all, a smaller gun might only have 6-7 rounds of .45 but the same gun in 9mm might have 10.
No clue what you're on about with bullet weight or why it's important. You totally lost me on that one.
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If you carry 15+1, you're either LE or some pre-ban crap. If former, you carry what the department gives you. If the latter, then you are not carrying a modern compact but rather a Beretta or a steel frame SIG from 1980's. So your argument about compact guns being capable of 10 does not apply to you. Instead, you pull the CNN, and conflate 10-round compacts with your ancient guns.
Regarding the bullet weight point, you know exactly what I mean, but you pretend like the point does not exist in order to avoid ceding the argument to a 40 cal lover.
My carry ammo is 147 gr HST. I don’t think this is better than my 230 gr HST carry ammo. I think both are adequate.
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roccoracer
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If a 230gr .45 is flying @800 fps a 115gr 9mm needs to travel 1600 fps to match its energy. Simple.
I still mostly carry a pocket 9 (p365)
I still mostly carry a pocket 9 (p365)
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Nope, not irrelevant.
A pistol bullet design is only relevant regarding its ability to transfer energy to an impacted object. Assuming a bullet design is capable of transferring 100% of its energy to the object, a bullet's terminal energy becomes critical. In other words, your claim of energy irrelevance is, as with your inability to disprove bullet weight importance earlier, an attempt to dismiss a point you are unable to disprove.
Lol do we really need one of those faggot mcdouchebag laden handgun energy transfer myth threads? Theres about 9000 of them here and on every other gun board, good luck landing that plane.
He probably has some of these ancient square and u-notches that fit and function in the latest and greatest gen MOS 5 Glocks. Its hilarious that "civilians" in MA have to use such expensive old mags to match the capacity a police officer can have in a carry gun. How much is my stuff in this pic worth? Lol
While your personal attacks don't bother me, I am quite amused at your utter ignorance. Do some research into ballistics before you embarrass yourself any further with this FUDD lore.
And with that, let’s all dial down the personal attacks.
The reality is that there are very little compelling data when it comes to would ballistics beyond that 1) handguns are weak and 2) long guns are more powerful.
The reality is that there are very little compelling data when it comes to would ballistics beyond that 1) handguns are weak and 2) long guns are more powerful.
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Nah, you just need to accept that you're wrong.
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He must have bought it from @Reptile for $350.
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Two points:
1) I did not attack you personally. I attacked your arguments. There is a difference.
2) Your statement IS a personal attack which means that you failed to prove your point and are reverting to personal attacks.
I suggest next time you stick to arguing the point instead of the person; otherwise, you start to sound like a leftie talking head on CNN.
The same people talking that shit about the .45 are the same people who also proclaim the .40 is dead, despite it still outperforming the 9mm in every measurable way. Even with "modern ammunition". Such people don't know their ass from their elbow and you should discard what they have to say with yesterday's trash.
They're just limp-wristed fanboys who want to believe their inferior round is the right choice and seek affirmation by convincing others to sing along.
You want to carry a 9... because the gun is lighter... or because of mag capacity. Fine. These are valid reasons. If you want to proclaim other rounds are obsolete just because it's not what you would choose to carry in your clutch or day purse.... well now you're talking out of your ass.
They're just limp-wristed fanboys who want to believe their inferior round is the right choice and seek affirmation by convincing others to sing along.
You want to carry a 9... because the gun is lighter... or because of mag capacity. Fine. These are valid reasons. If you want to proclaim other rounds are obsolete just because it's not what you would choose to carry in your clutch or day purse.... well now you're talking out of your ass.
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Quite_Exasperated
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Your average 9mm shooter…
Your average 45 shooter…
Your average 45 shooter…
With all the ballistic data being thrown around
What is the real world saying
You can read all the books, But maybe what counts is whats going thru those books.
One of the things we did this week at the Crimson Trace / Ruger / Safarilant / Leupold / DoubleTap Gunsite event was shooting through intermediate barriers. Part of that was shooting through a windshield to see how much a bullet will deflect (change direction) when it moves through that rather tough piece of engineering. But as we found out, the answer was “not a whole lot.”
We were using DoubleTap’s Bonded Defense series of handgun rounds, and every single one had a very minimal deflection when shot head-on into the car’s windshield. In fact, any deflection we saw could be attributed to shooter error. There was however some considerable loss in energy going through the barrier, with only the 45 ACP and 5.56 ammunition zipping through the rest of the car as well as the dummy — the others we recovered in the rear windshield.
Moral of the story: use 45 ACP if you’re shooting through a windshield.
What is the real world saying
You can read all the books, But maybe what counts is whats going thru those books.
One of the things we did this week at the Crimson Trace / Ruger / Safarilant / Leupold / DoubleTap Gunsite event was shooting through intermediate barriers. Part of that was shooting through a windshield to see how much a bullet will deflect (change direction) when it moves through that rather tough piece of engineering. But as we found out, the answer was “not a whole lot.”
We were using DoubleTap’s Bonded Defense series of handgun rounds, and every single one had a very minimal deflection when shot head-on into the car’s windshield. In fact, any deflection we saw could be attributed to shooter error. There was however some considerable loss in energy going through the barrier, with only the 45 ACP and 5.56 ammunition zipping through the rest of the car as well as the dummy — the others we recovered in the rear windshield.
Moral of the story: use 45 ACP if you’re shooting through a windshield.
I think more of the fanboyism around 9mm is the price, cheapest centerfire ammo one can buy today, but admitting that means admitting being a skinflint loser and people have an aversion to admitting they're cheap poors, so they dress it up using all these talking points of "technology advancement!" Or "ballistics data!"
The simple reality is this: 9mm is NOT better than .40 or .45 or 10mm, it's simply good enough to be effective.
But people can't accept having something decent, they need to have The Best because anything less than The Best causes some kind of psychological issue, people always need to be the best, they have to win Win WIN!
They're like Emilio Estevez's father in Breakfast Club.
I would rather people just be honest with 9mm. They shoot it cuz it's cheap, cuz they shoot it better than the larger calibers, but don't be deceptive and say that the larger calibers aren't as good.
