Amend LEOSA for C.O's

[Matt E]

While I agree that everyone should be able to carry freely in all 50 states, if the law is based on the premise that law enforcement officers somehow face risks that necessitate such a law, corrections officers are at the forefront of that need.

My father-in-law has worked for the MA DOC for years, and some of the run-ins with prior guests of his facility while off duty have ranged from awkward to downright dangerous. Everyone he has dealt with inside is, by definition, a convicted felon. Yeah, police officers run into people they arrest on occasion, but I don't arrest people everyday, and when I do, they're not always bad people or people inclined to commit violence against me, and our interaction might last an hour or two, tops. He deals with dozens of violent criminals all day, every day, he knows their faces, and they know his.

The off-duty risks to the average CO is far more serious than to the average police officer, such that I favor expanding LEOSA for their inclusion notwithstanding the reservations I have about the lack of similar coverage universally. CO's need that protection now, and if it is somehow a political possibility in the way that universal CCW permits will not be any time soon, than I'd favor an amendment.

First off I agree they should have the ability to protect themselves. However, they take the job full well knowing the risks. At the same time what are the odds of these encounters outside of their licensed or authorized carry area? I feel that is a stretch and the risks at that point are not much if any higher than an issue a standard ccw citizen would encounter. This is just yet another grab at special exemptions and skirting around the real issue. How do people not see an issue of layer upon layers of laws. Addressing the real issue and stripping back laws/regulations authorizing these exemptions would go a long way. Once you have a simplified law/regulation reaffirming the rights of the people and restoring those rights will start to solve our issues.

I'm at the point where I'm not willing to compromise our rights anymore. There's always excuses about safety and incase you missed it this is about the "safety" of those COs. what about the rest of the population.

 

[glide]

Protected classes sicken me.

 

[OfficerObie59]

But instead this furthers the us vs they attitude. Special priveleges blah blah, leosa should be disbanded and a unified voice of police and non badge wearers pushing for constitutional carry everywhere. As long as leosa stands most cops do not care about the rest of us. Take that away and we have a stronger voice with the backing of leos.

Did passing LEOSA in the first place further that change in attitude? Probably to some degree. Would expanding it to cover CO's change it further? I'd say probably not at this point.

My point is that I think the increased risk between Joe Jitizen and an the average off-duty police officer isn't all that pronounced. The difference between the risk of your average citizen and a CO is HUGE.

Yes, there are no doubt situations where COs lives are in danger, but "special treatment" sucks when the same system makes judgments that the COs protection is more important than that of a woman who works nights, the small businessperson who works in a diverse community, a witness in criminal trial involving gang members, or just the ordinary citizen with a clean record who wants the tools of dynamic self defense available when they might be needed.

I think you have the assessment incorrect and are comflating increased "importance" with increased risk.

I don't see this as much different than a CCW/LTC permit applicant in a "red" municipality who makes a special request for an unrestricted permit because he carries around large amounts of cash in high crime areas at night--other than one is an discreationary excpetion under color of law and one is an exception as a mechanism of law. Is the business owner making this request with the assumption that his life is more "important" than those who don't have the same professional responsibilites? Of course not. What he's asking for is for is quite similar: An exception to an (unconstitutional) regulatory scheme to help alleviate his increased risk.

The "some animals" arguement is not without merit. Where I agree with all of you is that the risk of simply being alive should suffice to get over this hurdle. But whereas we're dealing with a regulatory scheme that's unconstituional anyways, we should expand it where we can to help those who need it. If any public safety officer needs such an ability, it's the guys who kick cages for a living.

 

[jmuscaro]

You guys are complete haters. Don't blame LEO' or C.O.'s for the bull$hit that the government is putting us through. Grow up!!

 

[economist]

You guys are complete haters. Don't blame economists for the bull$hit that the government is putting us through. Grow up!!

I want my privileges. Screw everyone else. I'm special!

 

[OfficerObie59]

There's always excuses about safety and incase you missed it this is about the "safety" of those COs. what about the rest of the population.

Oh no I must have missed it entirely...like in the first sentence to the first post I made in this thread.

We can have sound and cordial debate, or you can step this up with subtle insults.

 

[appraiser]

I agree it should extend to CO's, but I also think that any citizen should have the same rights as LEO's when it comes to the right to protect ones self.

If you want to hear the voice of reason, read OfficerObie59's opinions on LEOSA, I don't agree with the people on the other side of the thin blue line often, but I think he is correct in his opinions in this thread, including keeping it civil.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I don't see this as much different than a CCW/LTC permit applicant in a "red" municipality who makes a special request for an unrestricted permit because he carries around large amounts of cash in high crime areas at night--other than one is an discreationary excpetion under color of law and one is an exception as a mechanism of law.

Tell the person who is denied the discretionary exception that there is not much difference between his case and that of his neighbor who is exempted under color of law. For example, pretty much anybody in NJ or HI - states that have discretionary carry permits that pretty much nobody can get.

 

[Matt E]

Nothing like a slippery slope here. So when you exempt a CO do you also add the true "victims" of that felons crime to the special people list. Do you add the DA and defense attorneys? I know COs that have absolutely no problems out side of the system. Be it county jail to the guy who worked maximum at Somers. From what those that were/are in that position say is it's all about how you treat the prisoners. If you treat them like maggots then yea you're probably heading for an issue. But if you treat them higher then that they will probably be fine. While supplying the county jails I saw first hand this difference in treatment. If you're going to make a mess or throw shit down for an inmate to clean up just because you can, then they are going to hold that animosity. At the sane time if you keep it professional and the bs to a minimum then it is what it is.

Officerobie59 it wasn't meant as a slight. Sometimes the passions get the best of us and I'm just sick of the whole poor me mentality of society today. If they addressed the real issues instead of running around with band aids we wouldn't have this issue. Something's gotta give and I think it's coming sooner than later.

 

[kimber le]

I don't know what some of you guys are talking about because CO's are under the LEOSA Law if you have ever held a Special State Police Commission during your career . I retired after 32 years with the MA DOC and have qualified and been accepted, twice, under the LEOSA law.

 

[squatch413]

Did passing LEOSA in the first place further that change in attitude? Probably to some degree. Would expanding it to cover CO's change it further? I'd say probably not at this point.

My point is that I think the increased risk between Joe Jitizen and an the average off-duty police officer isn't all that pronounced. The difference between the risk of your average citizen and a CO is HUGE.

I think you have the assessment incorrect and are comflating increased "importance" with increased risk.

I don't see this as much different than a CCW/LTC permit applicant in a "red" municipality who makes a special request for an unrestricted permit because he carries around large amounts of cash in high crime areas at night--other than one is an discreationary excpetion under color of law and one is an exception as a mechanism of law. Is the business owner making this request with the assumption that his life is more "important" than those who don't have the same professional responsibilites? Of course not. What he's asking for is for is quite similar: An exception to an (unconstitutional) regulatory scheme to help alleviate his increased risk.

The "some animals" arguement is not without merit. Where I agree with all of you is that the risk of simply being alive should suffice to get over this hurdle. But whereas we're dealing with a regulatory scheme that's unconstituional anyways, we should expand it where we can to help those who need it. If any public safety officer needs such an ability, it's the guys who kick cages for a living.

I whole heartedly agree that a CO should be able to carry everywhere, as should a LEO, as should anyone. also know that you feel this way and probably a good amount of your coworkers do as well. I don't know how the passage of LEOSA effected the view. I am willing to bet the nullification of it would go along way in many of the officers being more vocal of constitutional carry for all. Adding COs will strip some of that away because most people are not willing tk fight for a right for others that they already have. The voice of a lot of LEOs pushing for constitutional carry in my opinion would trump that of any pro2a group in the eyes of lawmakers.

 

[dhawk69]

have qualified and been accepted, twice, under the LEOSA law.

Would you explain what you mean by this?

 

[OSOK]

They picked there job not me.They should have thought about the off duty part and the possibility of bumping into ex con on the streets before they took the job.Not sure why a ex con is any more dangerous to them than they are to me and i dont get to carry any place i want.Make it legal for all CCW to carry any state,problem solved.

 

[Boghog1]

You guys are complete haters. Don't blame LEO' or C.O.'s for the bull$hit that the government is putting us through. Grow up!!

I am sure congress came up with this idea on their own with no input from any LEO organizations, you know, you do this for us and we will vote for you.

 

[Kisspik002]

While I am in favor of national CCW laws. Granting LEOs CCW anywhere in the US has nothing to do with special treatment. It has to do with there LEOs they deal with scumbags everyday and should be allowed to carry anywhere. Whether a cop or co doesn't matter. Again while I agree that all citizens should be able to CCW anywhere the fact is its prob not gonna happen in my lifetime and granting LEOs CCW anywhere I think would be a good thing whether a cop or co. And for clarity I mean real LEOs not security/ rental cops, or some hero that thinks he's a cop.

 

[Boghog1]

While I am in favor of national CCW laws. Granting LEOs CCW anywhere in the US has nothing to do with special treatment. It has to do with there LEOs they deal with scumbags everyday and should be allowed to carry anywhere. Whether a cop or co doesn't matter. Again while I agree that all citizens should be able to CCW anywhere the fact is its prob not gonna happen in my lifetime and granting LEOs CCW anywhere I think would be a good thing whether a cop or co. And for clarity I mean real LEOs not security/ rental cops, or some hero that thinks he's a cop.

Do LEOs prevent crime or cause crime, because if being a LEO leads to more crime we should do away with them. I am willing to bet that average Joe citizens is more likely to be affected by violent crime that the average LEO

 

[wmass]

They picked there job not me.They should have thought about the off duty part and the possibility of bumping into ex con on the streets before they took the job.Not sure why a ex con is any more dangerous to them than they are to me and i dont get to carry any place i want.Make it legal for all CCW to carry any state,problem solved.

One difference: you are just a face in the crowd. You don't have entire housing units studying your every move, demeanor, facial expression, every nuance that is you for 8+ hours a day for whatever bid length they get. Which is possibly 3-5 in county setting. As much as COs study inmates, inmates study COs...and they remember. Ive been followed at the Holyoke mall with my family. I have run into ex-inmates In enfield. What is the likelihood for an co/leo to run into a pissed off d-bag outside of their own state? Very small. But then sheriffs... Or atleast my old boss doesnt provide its officers with ltcs. Guards are on their own from the getgo.
Do COs need leosa? Probably not. Will they be granted it? Definitely not. Its more of a cop is always on duty as opposed to officer safety. Yes everyone who qualifies should be able to carry to . Leos aren't aren't animals more equal than others and we're all just peasants under the rule of the Gestapo.

 

[davemata]

Expand LEOSA to everyone, or no one.

Be done with this class bs.

 

[dhawk69]

Do COs need leosa? Probably not. Will they be granted it? Definitely not.

Many COs are already covered under LEOSA.

 

[deezwho]

Are you saying that the current police force is inadequate for your personal protection? That sounds like an argument for universal concealed carry to me.

 

[squatch413]

While I am in favor of national CCW laws. Granting LEOs CCW anywhere in the US has nothing to do with special treatment. It has to do with there LEOs they deal with scumbags everyday and should be allowed to carry anywhere. Whether a cop or co doesn't matter. Again while I agree that all citizens should be able to CCW anywhere the fact is its prob not gonna happen in my lifetime and granting LEOs CCW anywhere I think would be a good thing whether a cop or co. And for clarity I mean real LEOs not security/ rental cops, or some hero that thinks he's a cop.

That is exactly special treatment. Cut and dry. Its good for them and not us.

 

[squatch413]

Though myself and others have and do take advantage of LEOSA, We are always watching ourselves, We are concerned that there are cops out there, who haven't got a clue about what the law sayes or care too. So then it becomes a situtation of it being, an affirmitive defense when the jack booted thug chooses to ignore it.

Understood and I do not have animosity to those who carry under LEOSA. It would be silly not too.

 

[Kisspik002]

That is exactly special treatment. Cut and dry. Its good for them and not us.

Its not special treatment. Do you deal with the scum of the earth in a daily basis? Do you lock people up who then threaten to kill you or your family when they get out? Do you constantly have to look over your shoulder, are you on duty 24/7. Are you held to a higher standard and obligated to act if you find yourself in a situation off duty. Prob not....

im not here to argue against citizens CCW.....I AGREE WITH IT. But I don't agree that LEOs get special treatment. Sounds to me that some people are a little pissed cops can carry anywhere and they can't. I'm not looking to argue, I'm just making the point that LEOs deserve and should be able to carry anywhere as all citizens should. The fact is its prob never gonna happen and bitching about the fact that LEOs can carry and citizens can't sounds ridiculous. You wanna carry CCW that bad try becoming a cop. Oh and on a side note most of the time cops that I know and work with don't carry under LEOSA because it's so unclear and they don't know how other agency's or judges will react.

 

[davemata]

Its not special treatment. Do you deal with the scum of the earth in a daily basis?

Yes.

 

[Boghog1]

Its not special treatment. Do you deal with the scum of the earth in a daily basis? Do you lock people up who then threaten to kill you or your family when they get out? Do you constantly have to look over your shoulder, are you on duty 24/7. Are you held to a higher standard and obligated to act if you find yourself in a situation off duty. Prob not....

im not here to argue against citizens CCW.....I AGREE WITH IT. But I don't agree that LEOs get special treatment. Sounds to me that some people are a little pissed cops can carry anywhere and they can't. I'm not looking to argue, I'm just making the point that LEOs deserve and should be able to carry anywhere as all citizens should. The fact is its prob never gonna happen and bitching about the fact that LEOs can carry and citizens can't sounds ridiculous. You wanna carry CCW that bad try becoming a cop. Oh and on a side note most of the time cops that I know and work with don't carry under LEOSA because it's so unclear and they don't know how other agency's or judges will react.

Sounds like a tough line of work too bad you couldn't choose to do something else instead,

 

[Serapis]

Sounds like a tough line of work too bad you couldn't choose to do something else instead,

I always hate when people say stuff like that. It's actually very ignorant.

With that said, why would anyone be against more citizens being able to carry? So what if they are CO's. Are they not American citizens too? Maybe next year we can petition for security guards to fall under it. Then all veterans. Then the next year, firefighters. After that, maybe teachers. Next year maybe limo drivers. The more carrying the better, right? Baby steps over a long period makes a HUGE difference. See the process.

The all or none attitude needs to go away. Why not keep fighting for more citizens to carry. If you get a little at at time its better than getting none at all.

Flame away...

 

[Boghog1]

I always hate when people say stuff like that. It's actually very ignorant.

With that said, why would anyone be against more citizens being able to carry? So what if they are CO's. Are they not American citizens too? Maybe next year we can petition for security guards to fall under it. Then all veterans. Then the next year, firefighters. After that, maybe teachers. Next year maybe limo drivers. The more carrying the better, right? Baby steps over a long period makes a HUGE difference. See the process.

The all or none attitude needs to go away. Why not keep fighting for more citizens to carry. If you get a little at at time its better than getting none at all.

Flame away...

How is it ignorant?he is saying we should become police officers if we want to carry I am saying he should stop being a police officer if he feels the risk are so high.

 

[deezwho]

"The Senate has agreed to extend that trust to the law enforcement officers that serve within our military. They are no less deserving or worthy of this privilege and I am very pleased we have acted to equalize their treatment under the federal law". - Patrick Leahy on the LEOSA expansion with the NDAA reauthorization this year.

Note the word privilege, which implies special treatment.

 

[Serapis]

Not sure why a ex con is any more dangerous to them than they are to me and i dont get to carry any place i want.Make it legal for all CCW to carry any state,problem solved.

Please tell me this wasn't a real question.

 

[Boghog1]

Please tell me this wasn't a real question.

if they are a danger then why are they being released?