Massachusetts Bill HD.4420 "An act to modernize gun Laws"

[M125X]

Overton window is shifting

 

[BigGreen2000]

There is a belief rampart among the political elite who reside in the State House that there is no discernable viable life in the great empty hinterlands west of 495. Apparently, these self-appointed doyens of what constitutes civilized behavior can not envision the concept that normal law-abiding citizens can freely choose to bear arms in defense of their families and themselves as being anything other than a stark societal aberration that requires the immediate, if not sooner, intervention by the Beautiful Elite who know all that there is to know about everything.

The fiscal year has begun and there is still no agreed upon budget as of yet but the House would rather spend its dwindling time on this nonsense bill. I would like to think that the Senate will actually hold public hearings and be more transparent in their legislative evaluation of the bill and actually take gun owner’s concerns into consideration. The House……which gave us such sterling public servants such as Salvatore DiMasi, Thomas Finneran and Charles Flaherty….all former past Democratic Speakers….and all current convicted felons…..strikes me as a lost cause at its very best.

I am hoping for at least a tiny semblance of fairness during the Senate review but I fully realize that we are no longer in Kansas and despite madly clicking our heals with so much vigor that they sound like electric castanets gone wild they have already run over our dog and are looking at our sister in an unsavory manner. On a more positive note perhaps this entire sordid affair will give birth to a new state slogan that accurately reflects where the Commonwealth has arrived at these days…..Welcome to Massachusetts…..Where Political Mendacity and Obfuscation Have Risen to The Level of A New Art Form. Now that is something to really be proud of………

What appears to have become a rather widespread gnashing of teeth and renting of garments among those who believe that the bureaucratic abrogation of their Constitutional civil rights is nothing short of presaging a long, slow march in lockstep towards the cattle cars of historically failed socialism has apparently finally drawn the notice of the so called mainstream press. This morning while sipping my warm milk and reading the news at my computer I almost spilled the entire cup when I came across the Masslive article on local opinion pursuant to the proposed 4420 legislation. If this does not merit inclusion in the Man Bites Dog File I don't know what would. This article prompted me to write another in the long line of emails to my Representative and Senator.

She Who Must Be Obeyed and I have entered the autumn of our lives and have absolutely no intention of going quietly into that good night without fighting tooth and nail all the way. I get the sense from reading various on line discussions pursuant to 4420 that this proposed bill has really awakened a collective fundamental disgust amongst decent citizens who have said in unison…at the top of their lungs….. ENOUGH… WE HAVE REACHED THE POINT OF NO LONGER ACCEPTING NOR COMPLYING WITH THESE UNCONSTITUTIONAL EDICTS STEMMING FROM A CORRUPT POLITICAL CLASS BENT ON RESETTING THIS COUNTRY’S FUNDEMENTAL PRECEPTS TO THOSE OF HISTORICALLY FAILED SOCIALISTIC EXPERIMENTS OF THE PAST.

Robert Browning once wrote, “Ah….but a man’s reach should exceed his grasp. Or what’s a heaven for?” would seem to be an accurate reflection of where we find ourselves these days in the fight for our civil rights but we can draw comfort from that well known preceptive social commentator George Carlin who said "By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth." GOAL and NES are shining a light on the truth and what we do with this knowledge is up to us.

This morning's letter:

Dear Senator Oliveira,

This news article reports on the opinions of both some police chiefs and elected official’s point of view pursuant to the proposed H.D. 4420 legislation. You will note that they are pointing out the same thing that we have said in our prior emails to you in opposition to the legislation as it is presently written.

The issue of crime in the Commonwealth is not one predicated upon the behavior of citizens who lawfully own firearms……IT IS NOW AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN DRIVEN SOLELY BY THE NON-COMPLIANCE WITH THE LAW BY CRIMINALS.

Disarming and criminalizing law-abiding citizens will not in any way, shape or form have any reductive impact on the crime rate in the Commonwealth, what it will do is increase the overall rate of victimization of decent people just trying to provide security and safety for their families and themselves to the best of their collective abilities.

When the time arrives for you to consider the proposed legislation, we respectfully request that you afford serious consideration to the demonstrative negative impact legislation such as this present example will impose upon the citizens of the Commonwealth in general and upon your constituents in particular.

Classifying by blind edict law-abiding people as criminals will not now nor in the future have any constructive impact on the crime situation…..it never has and it never will.

Thank you for your time.

Police, municipal leaders in Western Mass. weigh in on state gun bill

• Published: Jul. 24, 2023, 7:57 p.m.

Police, municipal leaders in Western Mass. weigh in on state gun bill - masslive.com



Meanwhile, other officials in Western Massachusetts said the gun bill misfired, and that attention was better spent working on bills that would make changes to the justice system.

In a written statement, Springfield Mayor Domenic J. Sarno said the issue of gun violence was best addressed by jailing repeat violent criminal offenders.

“If you want to reduce and help mitigate gun violence, you need to hold these repeat violent criminal offenders in jail,” Sarno said. “To keep releasing these violent criminal offenders back out onto our streets and into our community is foolhardy and only continues the revolving door of our justice system which harms and hurts our community and residents.”

Springfield Police Superintendent Cheryl Clapprood said licensed gun owners are not the issue and added that lawmakers should create legislation that would address the small percentage of criminals who are repeat violent criminal offenders.

“Springfield Police Department fully supports any legislation and action that would help reduce and mitigate criminal activity,” Clapprood said. “Although I believe the intent of this legislation means well, in truth the ... language does nothing to address the issue of illegal guns and ghost guns being used in criminal activity by repeat violent criminal offenders.”

One law that could help, she said, is the Bartley-Fox law, enacted in 1975, which “could substantially help reduce gun violence if it was utilized more by our courts.”

Westfield Mayor Michael A. McCabe, formerly a long-serving police captain in his city prior to being elected mayor, said, “If you remove guns from folks who have lawful ownership, you are removing” a key deterrent against being victimized by criminals.

”We probably have in Massachusetts the toughest gun law application system in the nation, and a gun ownership vetting process second to none,” he said.

The mayor said law-abiding citizens contribute an important role in community safety.

In a July 14 post on Facebook, the Ware Police Department said the bill on Beacon Hill would hamper law enforcement and affect law-abiding citizens.

”A plethora of blatantly unconstitutional proposals litter this travesty of a bill, too many to mention here; however, of particular egregiousness is the criminalization of carrying firearms in certain so-called ‘prohibited locations,’ including businesses and private properties, EVEN WHILE HOLDING A VALID LICENSE TO CARRY. Not even off-duty police officers will be exempted from this appalling mandate,” the post says.

In an interview, Ware Police Chief Shawn C. Crevier said, “Massachusetts has great firearms laws. Legislators should focus their efforts on the court system enforcing penalties for these gun laws.”

Speaking of Sen. Oliviera. Did anyone notice how he got elected? Chip Harrington (R) was declared winner on election night by a +100 vote margin. Then the next morning, it was declared an “error,” and Chip actually lost by 100 votes. Yeah, OK!

 

[mousegunfan]

Supposedly there are 600,000 men and women who own firearms here in the People's Democratic Socialist Republic. If that is an accurate figure then those individuals would represent approximately 11.63% of the overall population. While that is not an earth-shattering number in and of itself it still is worth taking into consideration if one derives their livelihood from some sort of elective office. At the very least I am gratified to see the outpouring of disgust at this blatant attempt to deprive us of a Constitutional civil right. Maybe this will end up be the watershed event that causes more citizens of good will to publicly stand up for their beliefs and gather together. One can but hope.....

Don't use overall population, use adult population.

 

[alan226]

"Give me all the money in your wallet."

"No, that's too much."

"Give me 75% of the money in your wallet."

"K, that's cool I guess."

We're going to limit you to a 6 round magazine
Outrageous
OK we'll let you have a 10 round magazine
Nice, we won

 

[Skeeter]

Speaking of Sen. Oliviera. Did anyone notice how he got elected? Chip Harrington (R) was declared winner on election night by a +100 vote margin. Then the next morning, it was declared an “error,” and Chip actually lost by 100 votes. Yeah, OK!

Yes it was definitely noticed & total bs.

 

[Harry Christopher]

Don't use overall population, use adult population.

Supposedly there are 5,511,033 adults of which 1,136,566 are classified as seniors currently in the Republic. If these numbers are correct then the listed number of licensed firearm owners would work out to approximately 9.19% of the total adult population......maybe.......

 

[btnh6668]

Not sure why this is being viewed as a victory. Its merely a delay.

 

[thorin]

Lots of words

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

Horseshit. NO

 

[SIGNES]

How about just following the 2nd as explained by Heller, McDonald, Cataeno and Bruen
Why give in? You know that's why they propose shit like this, right? So that they can back it off a little and say they reached a reasonable compromise.
They current law doesn't pass constitutional scrutiny so any change proposed should be for more freedom not less

@SIGNES the response to then should be the FPC tweet response - f*** you, No!

Every single item in the Bill of Rights has been found by legal precedent and upheld stature to have some limits. Every last one. Some are even objectively reasonable, many are absolute bullshit we live with nonetheless.

My religious freedom doesn't grant me the right to eat babies. My freedom to assemble doesn't grant me the right to get five hundred of my besties and have a picnic in the middle of Rt 128 etc. etc,

 

[PappyM3]

…
9) No more 'roster' but continued prohibitions against guns which are camouflaged to appear as something else or which are under a certain size (say, less than Glock 42/P365 sized to address the the 'Saturday night special" concern) to carry as opposed to collect or use at the range.
…

First of all, you do realize that politicians going after “Saturday night specials” was an attempt to disarm black people, right? Saturday night specials were just cheap guns.

Second, f*** off.

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

No. Do you even know the level of scrutiny that the Bruen ruling demands?

 

[PappyM3]

…
My religious freedom doesn't grant me the right to eat babies. My freedom to assemble doesn't grant me the right to get five hundred of my besties and have a picnic in the middle of Rt 128 etc. etc,

All of those things directly harm other people. The act of owning and carrying guns does not. Your analogy is false.

 

[MisterHappy]

Legalizing drugs will not reduce crime and the day will come when we will regret doing it. It's all about the Government getting their hands on more money to piss up a tree.

Well, I have to disagree. If you legalize drugs, you automatically make all the drug crimes "go away" so that entire number of crimes is reduced.

 

[Harry Christopher]

Speaking of Sen. Oliviera. Did anyone notice how he got elected? Chip Harrington (R) was declared winner on election night by a +100 vote margin. Then the next morning, it was declared an “error,” and Chip actually lost by 100 votes. Yeah, OK!

And that my son is why the level of belief in the integrity of the voting system is at such an historic abysmal level these days. We voted for Harrington and wondered why ALL of the candidates we chose failed to gather enough votes to become elected. Evidently, we failed to receive the memo informing us how we should vote.

Sort of reminds one that we seem to be in a headlong flight to fully embracing the world described in Orwell's 1984:

 

[sieveboy]

Every single item in the Bill of Rights has been found by legal precedent and upheld stature to have some limits. Every last one. Some are even objectively reasonable, many are absolute bullshit we love with nonetheless.

My religious freedom doesn't grant me the right to eat babies. My freedom to assemble doesn't grant me the right to get five hundred of my besties and have a picnic in the middle of Rt 128 etc. etc,

Playing compromise games with those that want to disarm and subjugate never ends well. More baby please.

 

[VTski4x4]

Something will pass. So, the question is, what can be pitched that we can live with. I'll risk the flames again and suggest the following as possible things we could negotiate. As I have been flamed repeatedly for saying absolutism is futile, I'll take the flames again.

1) Live fire and written test components for licensing. Trainers are private and the same pool of folks currently sanctioned to train and process to be certified as a trainer. Written test is created by GOAL. Standard of live fire performance is roughly 50% of what the State Police have to meet. (I personally worry about anyone daily carrying who couldn't meet that very low bar.)
2) AWB remains so they can say they have it but it's changed to "No full auto weapons modified down to semi after initial manufacture in a manner reversible with the restoration of removed parts". 'Feature' tests and 'named weapons' prohibitions are removed except as preceding and remove the crap solely related to appearance. Follow federal minimum overall length and barrel length standards for non-tax-stamped SBR rifles.
3) SBRs, Suppressors etc. congruent with federal law (tax stamp etc.) but with an extra State penalty for possession without a stamp.
4) All private sales/transfers of firearms must be done through an FFL with 4473 background check and transaction reporting and a nominal (capped say, $30?) fee for FFL processing.
5) EFA-10 process and serialization requirement remains for 'home made (80% lowers etc.)' guns with stiff penalties for 'unregistered' after 7 days. (Assembly with a 4473'd serialized receiver does not constitute 'manufacture'.)
6) State penalties for full-auto, bump stock, forced reset mods without a federal tax stamp as a 'machine gun'.
7) Tolerate a "Red Flag" law but with stiff penalties for those who falsely make a complaint. Requirements for the return of all firearms confiscated (for up to 60 days without a renewal court proceeding where the 'flagged' can face their accuser) when a 'red flag' is invoked with stiff penalties for lost or damaged firearms held in police custody and requirements to 'male whole' within 30 days.
8) No prohibitions on 'standard capacity' magazines (30 rounds rifle, whatever ships with the model of handgun nationally). 30 Round magazines must be transported locked between home and range or hunting area. (Yeah, I know, but let 'em ban the drums and happy sticks so we can stop having the rest be a pain in the ass. I mean we do correct them from "high capacity" to "standard capacity", so, accept a real world definition of 'standard') Remove prohibitions for LTC holders to carry a pistol while hunting.
9) No more 'roster' but continued prohibitions against guns which are camouflaged to appear as something else or which are under a certain size (say, less than Glock 42/P365 sized to address the the 'Saturday night special" concern) to carry as opposed to collect or use at the range.
10) Transport in cars 'on person' for LTC holders. or in a locked case/out of view trunk and unloaded.
11) Storage in a gun safe of types in 'common use' or in a 'room vault' dedicated to the purpose and only readily accessible but he license holder(s) in the household when the licensee is not at home with the firearm with a mandate to report all lost or stolen firearms. Criminal penalty for gun owners when children in the home gain access to firearms that were not stored properly.
12) Stiffer penalties for possession without a permit, very stiff ones for carrying without a permit.
13) Requirements for licensing turnaround times and renewals with actual teeth so it happens in a consistent and timely manner.
14) Allow 'no guns permitted' signs to carry the force of law with, say, a thousand dollar fine for violation if signage was clearly posted but no loss ior suspension of license for a first offense.
15) Codify blood alcohol level to match that for DUI for carrying while intoxicated.
16) Minimum age for an LTC of 21 except where an employer requires carry.
17) Ban "open carry" except while hunting.


Maybe you hate some or all of these, maybe you too could live with them but, start being ready to think of some bone you can throw so that can still say "MA has some of the strongest gun safety laws in the country' without 'peppering your angus' with those 'strong laws'.

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

f*** all the way off.

 

[Picton]

Not sure why this is being viewed as a victory. Its merely a delay.

Well... the proof of that pudding will be in the eating, when we see the wording of whatever vomit they spew this fall. If they try to just recycle this same bill, then you're correct. But if major chunks of it get altered to better reflect Bruen, well, then you're not; this bill overreached, and badly, and any time TPTB realize that and back off, then yes. It's a victory for the BoR and the rule of Constitutional law. And to the extent that our advocacy helped with that, then we damn well should celebrate. Mariano publicly said he wanted this passed in this session, then publicly backed down from that. That is, indeed, a victory.

We'll see how durable it is. We don't know yet.

 

[MisterHappy]

Something will pass. So, the question is, what can be pitched that we can live with. I'll risk the flames again and suggest the following as possible things we could negotiate. As I have been flamed repeatedly for saying absolutism is futile, I'll take the flames again.

1) Live fire and written test components for licensing. Trainers are private and the same pool of folks currently sanctioned to train and process to be certified as a trainer. Written test is created by GOAL. Standard of live fire performance is roughly 50% of what the State Police have to meet. (I personally worry about anyone daily carrying who couldn't meet that very low bar.)
2) AWB remains so they can say they have it but it's changed to "No full auto weapons modified down to semi after initial manufacture in a manner reversible with the restoration of removed parts". 'Feature' tests and 'named weapons' prohibitions are removed except as preceding and remove the crap solely related to appearance. Follow federal minimum overall length and barrel length standards for non-tax-stamped SBR rifles.
3) SBRs, Suppressors etc. congruent with federal law (tax stamp etc.) but with an extra State penalty for possession without a stamp.
4) All private sales/transfers of firearms must be done through an FFL with 4473 background check and transaction reporting and a nominal (capped say, $30?) fee for FFL processing.
5) EFA-10 process and serialization requirement remains for 'home made (80% lowers etc.)' guns with stiff penalties for 'unregistered' after 7 days. (Assembly with a 4473'd serialized receiver does not constitute 'manufacture'.)
6) State penalties for full-auto, bump stock, forced reset mods without a federal tax stamp as a 'machine gun'.
7) Tolerate a "Red Flag" law but with stiff penalties for those who falsely make a complaint. Requirements for the return of all firearms confiscated (for up to 60 days without a renewal court proceeding where the 'flagged' can face their accuser) when a 'red flag' is invoked with stiff penalties for lost or damaged firearms held in police custody and requirements to 'male whole' within 30 days.
8) No prohibitions on 'standard capacity' magazines (30 rounds rifle, whatever ships with the model of handgun nationally). 30 Round magazines must be transported locked between home and range or hunting area. (Yeah, I know, but let 'em ban the drums and happy sticks so we can stop having the rest be a pain in the ass. I mean we do correct them from "high capacity" to "standard capacity", so, accept a real world definition of 'standard') Remove prohibitions for LTC holders to carry a pistol while hunting.
9) No more 'roster' but continued prohibitions against guns which are camouflaged to appear as something else or which are under a certain size (say, less than Glock 42/P365 sized to address the the 'Saturday night special" concern) to carry as opposed to collect or use at the range.
10) Transport in cars 'on person' for LTC holders. or in a locked case/out of view trunk and unloaded.
11) Storage in a gun safe of types in 'common use' or in a 'room vault' dedicated to the purpose and only readily accessible but he license holder(s) in the household when the licensee is not at home with the firearm with a mandate to report all lost or stolen firearms. Criminal penalty for gun owners when children in the home gain access to firearms that were not stored properly.
12) Stiffer penalties for possession without a permit, very stiff ones for carrying without a permit.
13) Requirements for licensing turnaround times and renewals with actual teeth so it happens in a consistent and timely manner.
14) Allow 'no guns permitted' signs to carry the force of law with, say, a thousand dollar fine for violation if signage was clearly posted but no loss ior suspension of license for a first offense.
15) Codify blood alcohol level to match that for DUI for carrying while intoxicated.
16) Minimum age for an LTC of 21 except where an employer requires carry.
17) Ban "open carry" except while hunting.


Maybe you hate some or all of these, maybe you too could live with them but, start being ready to think of some bone you can throw so that can still say "MA has some of the strongest gun safety laws in the country' without 'peppering your angus' with those 'strong laws'.

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

No.

I had a co-worker at a previous gig ask, "How come gun people don't want to compromise?"

I said, "If I tell you, 'give me $100 or I'll beat the crap out of you,' then roll the monetary demand back to $50, is that a compromise? No, it's just less extortion. It's only a compromise if both sides give up something."


I was thinking about going down the list, item by item, but decided "No" was easier.

 

[SwampYankee42]

 

[pastera]

Every single item in the Bill of Rights has been found by legal precedent and upheld stature to have some limits. Every last one. Some are even objectively reasonable, many are absolute bullshit we love with nonetheless.

My religious freedom doesn't grant me the right to eat babies. My freedom to assemble doesn't grant me the right to get five hundred of my besties and have a picnic in the middle of Rt 128 etc. etc,

EaBoD
Nothing you stated passes History Text and Tradition
Your examples are bogus - give me an example where a disallowed action is not volatiing another person's rights.

 

[drgrant]

I'm pleased too, but we shouldn't get too excited; we've been unified before, and we'll be unified again.

The pressure from us helped, but I don't think it helped as much as the fact that this bill goes WAAAAAYY too far. Day will be careful to scale that back in the fall to make it far more palatable, and we'll see then what we can accomplish once we rev up our advocacy once more.

I do think it's likely the new bill won't do anything drastic at all. It'll be an easy bill for both houses to support, with nothing judicially objectionable. Under those circumstances, and given where we already are under MA law, I'm not sure what that kind of bill would look like. Under Bruen, the current system kind of goes as far as it can. I can think of a few things Day could slide in there, but I'm superstitious enough not to want to post them here, lol.

If they want path of least resistance they're just going to put in the two liner for "ghost gun ban" or similar garbage and ram that through. Thats what the rumor was all along to begin with
anyways. even the box stores would quietly sign onto that shit because they dont like that fact that everyone isnt as cowardly as they are.

Something will pass. So, the question is, what can be pitched that we can live with. I'll risk the flames again and suggest the following as possible things we could negotiate. As I have been flamed repeatedly for saying absolutism is futile, I'll take the flames again.

1) Live fire and written test components for licensing. Trainers are private and the same pool of folks currently sanctioned to train and process to be certified as a trainer. Written test is created by GOAL. Standard of live fire performance is roughly 50% of what the State Police have to meet. (I personally worry about anyone daily carrying who couldn't meet that very low bar.)
2) AWB remains so they can say they have it but it's changed to "No full auto weapons modified down to semi after initial manufacture in a manner reversible with the restoration of removed parts". 'Feature' tests and 'named weapons' prohibitions are removed except as preceding and remove the crap solely related to appearance. Follow federal minimum overall length and barrel length standards for non-tax-stamped SBR rifles.
3) SBRs, Suppressors etc. congruent with federal law (tax stamp etc.) but with an extra State penalty for possession without a stamp.
4) All private sales/transfers of firearms must be done through an FFL with 4473 background check and transaction reporting and a nominal (capped say, $30?) fee for FFL processing.
5) EFA-10 process and serialization requirement remains for 'home made (80% lowers etc.)' guns with stiff penalties for 'unregistered' after 7 days. (Assembly with a 4473'd serialized receiver does not constitute 'manufacture'.)
6) State penalties for full-auto, bump stock, forced reset mods without a federal tax stamp as a 'machine gun'.
7) Tolerate a "Red Flag" law but with stiff penalties for those who falsely make a complaint. Requirements for the return of all firearms confiscated (for up to 60 days without a renewal court proceeding where the 'flagged' can face their accuser) when a 'red flag' is invoked with stiff penalties for lost or damaged firearms held in police custody and requirements to 'male whole' within 30 days.
8) No prohibitions on 'standard capacity' magazines (30 rounds rifle, whatever ships with the model of handgun nationally). 30 Round magazines must be transported locked between home and range or hunting area. (Yeah, I know, but let 'em ban the drums and happy sticks so we can stop having the rest be a pain in the ass. I mean we do correct them from "high capacity" to "standard capacity", so, accept a real world definition of 'standard') Remove prohibitions for LTC holders to carry a pistol while hunting.
9) No more 'roster' but continued prohibitions against guns which are camouflaged to appear as something else or which are under a certain size (say, less than Glock 42/P365 sized to address the the 'Saturday night special" concern) to carry as opposed to collect or use at the range.
10) Transport in cars 'on person' for LTC holders. or in a locked case/out of view trunk and unloaded.
11) Storage in a gun safe of types in 'common use' or in a 'room vault' dedicated to the purpose and only readily accessible but he license holder(s) in the household when the licensee is not at home with the firearm with a mandate to report all lost or stolen firearms. Criminal penalty for gun owners when children in the home gain access to firearms that were not stored properly.
12) Stiffer penalties for possession without a permit, very stiff ones for carrying without a permit.
13) Requirements for licensing turnaround times and renewals with actual teeth so it happens in a consistent and timely manner.
14) Allow 'no guns permitted' signs to carry the force of law with, say, a thousand dollar fine for violation if signage was clearly posted but no loss ior suspension of license for a first offense.
15) Codify blood alcohol level to match that for DUI for carrying while intoxicated.
16) Minimum age for an LTC of 21 except where an employer requires carry.
17) Ban "open carry" except while hunting.


Maybe you hate some or all of these, maybe you too could live with them but, start being ready to think of some bone you can throw so that can still say "MA has some of the strongest gun safety laws in the country' without 'peppering your angus' with those 'strong laws'.

most of that shit is unconstitutional.

Also 11, thats faggot f*** bullshit, basically you're saying that poors shouldn't be allowed to own guns and that nobody can become a gun owner without owning a f***ing safe, which is
retarded. Not to mention someone with a temporary dwelling wouldnt be able to lawfully store firearms.

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

no, it wouldn't. Like who are you posting for, really? This sock puppet act is getting old.

 

[DW357]

Something will pass. So, the question is, what can be pitched that we can live with. I'll risk the flames again and suggest the following as possible things we could negotiate. As I have been flamed repeatedly for saying absolutism is futile, I'll take the flames again.

1) Live fire and written test components for licensing. Trainers are private and the same pool of folks currently sanctioned to train and process to be certified as a trainer. Written test is created by GOAL. Standard of live fire performance is roughly 50% of what the State Police have to meet. (I personally worry about anyone daily carrying who couldn't meet that very low bar.)
2) AWB remains so they can say they have it but it's changed to "No full auto weapons modified down to semi after initial manufacture in a manner reversible with the restoration of removed parts". 'Feature' tests and 'named weapons' prohibitions are removed except as preceding and remove the crap solely related to appearance. Follow federal minimum overall length and barrel length standards for non-tax-stamped SBR rifles.
3) SBRs, Suppressors etc. congruent with federal law (tax stamp etc.) but with an extra State penalty for possession without a stamp.
4) All private sales/transfers of firearms must be done through an FFL with 4473 background check and transaction reporting and a nominal (capped say, $30?) fee for FFL processing.
5) EFA-10 process and serialization requirement remains for 'home made (80% lowers etc.)' guns with stiff penalties for 'unregistered' after 7 days. (Assembly with a 4473'd serialized receiver does not constitute 'manufacture'.)
6) State penalties for full-auto, bump stock, forced reset mods without a federal tax stamp as a 'machine gun'.
7) Tolerate a "Red Flag" law but with stiff penalties for those who falsely make a complaint. Requirements for the return of all firearms confiscated (for up to 60 days without a renewal court proceeding where the 'flagged' can face their accuser) when a 'red flag' is invoked with stiff penalties for lost or damaged firearms held in police custody and requirements to 'male whole' within 30 days.
8) No prohibitions on 'standard capacity' magazines (30 rounds rifle, whatever ships with the model of handgun nationally). 30 Round magazines must be transported locked between home and range or hunting area. (Yeah, I know, but let 'em ban the drums and happy sticks so we can stop having the rest be a pain in the ass. I mean we do correct them from "high capacity" to "standard capacity", so, accept a real world definition of 'standard') Remove prohibitions for LTC holders to carry a pistol while hunting.
9) No more 'roster' but continued prohibitions against guns which are camouflaged to appear as something else or which are under a certain size (say, less than Glock 42/P365 sized to address the the 'Saturday night special" concern) to carry as opposed to collect or use at the range.
10) Transport in cars 'on person' for LTC holders. or in a locked case/out of view trunk and unloaded.
11) Storage in a gun safe of types in 'common use' or in a 'room vault' dedicated to the purpose and only readily accessible but he license holder(s) in the household when the licensee is not at home with the firearm with a mandate to report all lost or stolen firearms. Criminal penalty for gun owners when children in the home gain access to firearms that were not stored properly.
12) Stiffer penalties for possession without a permit, very stiff ones for carrying without a permit.
13) Requirements for licensing turnaround times and renewals with actual teeth so it happens in a consistent and timely manner.
14) Allow 'no guns permitted' signs to carry the force of law with, say, a thousand dollar fine for violation if signage was clearly posted but no loss ior suspension of license for a first offense.
15) Codify blood alcohol level to match that for DUI for carrying while intoxicated.
16) Minimum age for an LTC of 21 except where an employer requires carry.
17) Ban "open carry" except while hunting.


Maybe you hate some or all of these, maybe you too could live with them but, start being ready to think of some bone you can throw so that can still say "MA has some of the strongest gun safety laws in the country' without 'peppering your angus' with those 'strong laws'.

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

I don’t even know where to begin.
It’s sad we have gun owners with this mentality. Are you new to guns?

 

[DW357]

View attachment 778222

Seriously. Like wtf is with some of these NES members

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Something will pass. So, the question is, what can be pitched that we can live with. I'll risk the flames again and suggest the following as possible things we could negotiate. As I have been flamed repeatedly for saying absolutism is futile, I'll take the flames again.

1) Live fire and written test components for licensing. Trainers are private and the same pool of folks currently sanctioned to train and process to be certified as a trainer. Written test is created by GOAL. Standard of live fire performance is roughly 50% of what the State Police have to meet. (I personally worry about anyone daily carrying who couldn't meet that very low bar.)
2) AWB remains so they can say they have it but it's changed to "No full auto weapons modified down to semi after initial manufacture in a manner reversible with the restoration of removed parts". 'Feature' tests and 'named weapons' prohibitions are removed except as preceding and remove the crap solely related to appearance. Follow federal minimum overall length and barrel length standards for non-tax-stamped SBR rifles.
3) SBRs, Suppressors etc. congruent with federal law (tax stamp etc.) but with an extra State penalty for possession without a stamp.
4) All private sales/transfers of firearms must be done through an FFL with 4473 background check and transaction reporting and a nominal (capped say, $30?) fee for FFL processing.
5) EFA-10 process and serialization requirement remains for 'home made (80% lowers etc.)' guns with stiff penalties for 'unregistered' after 7 days. (Assembly with a 4473'd serialized receiver does not constitute 'manufacture'.)
6) State penalties for full-auto, bump stock, forced reset mods without a federal tax stamp as a 'machine gun'.
7) Tolerate a "Red Flag" law but with stiff penalties for those who falsely make a complaint. Requirements for the return of all firearms confiscated (for up to 60 days without a renewal court proceeding where the 'flagged' can face their accuser) when a 'red flag' is invoked with stiff penalties for lost or damaged firearms held in police custody and requirements to 'male whole' within 30 days.
8) No prohibitions on 'standard capacity' magazines (30 rounds rifle, whatever ships with the model of handgun nationally). 30 Round magazines must be transported locked between home and range or hunting area. (Yeah, I know, but let 'em ban the drums and happy sticks so we can stop having the rest be a pain in the ass. I mean we do correct them from "high capacity" to "standard capacity", so, accept a real world definition of 'standard') Remove prohibitions for LTC holders to carry a pistol while hunting.
9) No more 'roster' but continued prohibitions against guns which are camouflaged to appear as something else or which are under a certain size (say, less than Glock 42/P365 sized to address the the 'Saturday night special" concern) to carry as opposed to collect or use at the range.
10) Transport in cars 'on person' for LTC holders. or in a locked case/out of view trunk and unloaded.
11) Storage in a gun safe of types in 'common use' or in a 'room vault' dedicated to the purpose and only readily accessible but he license holder(s) in the household when the licensee is not at home with the firearm with a mandate to report all lost or stolen firearms. Criminal penalty for gun owners when children in the home gain access to firearms that were not stored properly.
12) Stiffer penalties for possession without a permit, very stiff ones for carrying without a permit.
13) Requirements for licensing turnaround times and renewals with actual teeth so it happens in a consistent and timely manner.
14) Allow 'no guns permitted' signs to carry the force of law with, say, a thousand dollar fine for violation if signage was clearly posted but no loss ior suspension of license for a first offense.
15) Codify blood alcohol level to match that for DUI for carrying while intoxicated.
16) Minimum age for an LTC of 21 except where an employer requires carry.
17) Ban "open carry" except while hunting.


Maybe you hate some or all of these, maybe you too could live with them but, start being ready to think of some bone you can throw so that can still say "MA has some of the strongest gun safety laws in the country' without 'peppering your angus' with those 'strong laws'.

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

2) Are you aware that the feds already have "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" and you cannot make a full auto a legal semi-auto by irreversable conversion to semi config? Also, there are already guidelines for non-taxed SBR rifles - federal felony.

4) WTF?

5) This creates the concept of "registration" as opposed to "reporting". A subtle but big difference.

8) If this deal is negotiated, do you really think it will stop there? Are you new to the this?

9) WTF?

14) This totally ignores the fact that many "private property" places are quasi-public with open invites. Also, be aware that any penalty for such a "negotiated item" would almost certainly a a misdafelony.

15) Get this introduced separately with a title "an act to further restrict carrying guns while intoxicated" and it will likely pass.

16) Minimum LTC age 21 has been in effect for quite a few years now.

The problem with your list is that is the traditional "compromise" of "We'll take half now and be back for half of what is left later and take half of what is left, then repeat". Remember, GOAL had a deal with the original MA AW ban and even complimented it, even though it had a post-ban mag freeze.

One area we are bound to lose is ghost guns - we need to stop them from having every piece of garbage they can think of onto such legislation "sure to pass" train. Do not endorse a ghost gun ban, but get it stand alone and the other stuff cannot go along for a ride on what the majority in the legislature will see as a no-brainer. Yeah, I know - but calling them as I see them.

And how about:

1) Change the new resident exemption to include hi cap guns (negate Comm v. Cornelius)
2) Remove the "must have LTC with issuance requirements that no LTC has" impossible to meet clause of the gun show / competition exemption.
3) Clarify that said exemption includes high cap (so the existing law is not at risk of being Corneliused)
4) Add that dropped charges, expired CWOFs and not guilty findings cannot be used to deny an LTC (that pesky due process stuff)

 

[drgrant]

Seriously. Like wtf is with some of these NES members

View: https://youtu.be/5iln6fkwJOU

 

[Quantavious G]

No. There is no gray area. The government shouldn't be banning anything, at all.

so here's that slippery slope. If the minor attracted mutants have their way, prohibitions against child molestation would be removed. Should the government not ban child molestation?

I'm not equating recreational drug use to child molestation. The .suck does have to regulate some things. Where do we draw that line?

 

[Tallahassee]

Something will pass. So, the question is, what can be pitched that we can live with. I'll risk the flames again and suggest the following as possible things we could negotiate. As I have been flamed repeatedly for saying absolutism is futile, I'll take the flames again.

1) Live fire and written test components for licensing. Trainers are private and the same pool of folks currently sanctioned to train and process to be certified as a trainer. Written test is created by GOAL. Standard of live fire performance is roughly 50% of what the State Police have to meet. (I personally worry about anyone daily carrying who couldn't meet that very low bar.)
2) AWB remains so they can say they have it but it's changed to "No full auto weapons modified down to semi after initial manufacture in a manner reversible with the restoration of removed parts". 'Feature' tests and 'named weapons' prohibitions are removed except as preceding and remove the crap solely related to appearance. Follow federal minimum overall length and barrel length standards for non-tax-stamped SBR rifles.
3) SBRs, Suppressors etc. congruent with federal law (tax stamp etc.) but with an extra State penalty for possession without a stamp.
4) All private sales/transfers of firearms must be done through an FFL with 4473 background check and transaction reporting and a nominal (capped say, $30?) fee for FFL processing.
5) EFA-10 process and serialization requirement remains for 'home made (80% lowers etc.)' guns with stiff penalties for 'unregistered' after 7 days. (Assembly with a 4473'd serialized receiver does not constitute 'manufacture'.)
6) State penalties for full-auto, bump stock, forced reset mods without a federal tax stamp as a 'machine gun'.
7) Tolerate a "Red Flag" law but with stiff penalties for those who falsely make a complaint. Requirements for the return of all firearms confiscated (for up to 60 days without a renewal court proceeding where the 'flagged' can face their accuser) when a 'red flag' is invoked with stiff penalties for lost or damaged firearms held in police custody and requirements to 'male whole' within 30 days.
8) No prohibitions on 'standard capacity' magazines (30 rounds rifle, whatever ships with the model of handgun nationally). 30 Round magazines must be transported locked between home and range or hunting area. (Yeah, I know, but let 'em ban the drums and happy sticks so we can stop having the rest be a pain in the ass. I mean we do correct them from "high capacity" to "standard capacity", so, accept a real world definition of 'standard') Remove prohibitions for LTC holders to carry a pistol while hunting.
9) No more 'roster' but continued prohibitions against guns which are camouflaged to appear as something else or which are under a certain size (say, less than Glock 42/P365 sized to address the the 'Saturday night special" concern) to carry as opposed to collect or use at the range.
10) Transport in cars 'on person' for LTC holders. or in a locked case/out of view trunk and unloaded.
11) Storage in a gun safe of types in 'common use' or in a 'room vault' dedicated to the purpose and only readily accessible but he license holder(s) in the household when the licensee is not at home with the firearm with a mandate to report all lost or stolen firearms. Criminal penalty for gun owners when children in the home gain access to firearms that were not stored properly.
12) Stiffer penalties for possession without a permit, very stiff ones for carrying without a permit.
13) Requirements for licensing turnaround times and renewals with actual teeth so it happens in a consistent and timely manner.
14) Allow 'no guns permitted' signs to carry the force of law with, say, a thousand dollar fine for violation if signage was clearly posted but no loss ior suspension of license for a first offense.
15) Codify blood alcohol level to match that for DUI for carrying while intoxicated.
16) Minimum age for an LTC of 21 except where an employer requires carry.
17) Ban "open carry" except while hunting.


Maybe you hate some or all of these, maybe you too could live with them but, start being ready to think of some bone you can throw so that can still say "MA has some of the strongest gun safety laws in the country' without 'peppering your angus' with those 'strong laws'.

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

Piss off. None of that would pass any test.

Your verbal diarehia is getting old. Wasn't funny to begin with either.

 

[Junior314]

Some people never learn… especially in this state.

Compromises get you NOTHING but a slight delay on future erosions of your rights.

 

[mothybee]

I don't believe any of these politicians speaking out now that they don't support the bill. AFTER IT HAS ALREADY BEEN TABLED. where were they before today.

That's the Mass. state motto, "I was for it before I was against it."

 

[M125X]

I don’t even know where to begin.
It’s sad we have gun owners with this mentality. Are you new to guns?

We are our own worst enemy. Lots of FUDDS!

 

[Tallahassee]

Some people never learn… especially in this state.

Compromises get you NOTHING but a slight delay on future erosions of your rights.

Compromise will get you that 8 round magazine limit you always wanted.