Massachusetts Bill HD.4420 "An act to modernize gun Laws"

Just do something



“We want to make sure that we have a hearing and that we study all the various facets because it’s not so simple. It’s not just like, ‘OK you can’t carry a gun.’ ” -Creem

... gee, Cindy. Y'think?
 
But don't pretend Portugal has anything like a 2nd Amendment protecting your right to keep and bear, or even a recognition of the right to armed self defense.
So while they will ALLOW you to buy certain guns, Portugal has NO constitutional protection of the inherent right to keep and bear arms.

Perhaps, but sold my guns so my priorities have changed and won’t be interested in 2nd Amendment movement and also won’t feel the need to walk around with a gun on my hip to feel safe. Lots of golf courses where I’ll be going so my priorities have shifted in my old age. Have “fought the good fight” all these years since Bobbie Kennedy was killed in 68 by trying to convince the ever growing anti-gun movement that they were wrong. Now it is the turn of you folks to carry the torch and continue the fight.
 
Perhaps, but sold my guns so my priorities have changed and won’t be interested in 2nd Amendment movement and also won’t feel the need to walk around with a gun on my hip to feel safe. Lots of golf courses where I’ll be going so my priorities have shifted in my old age. Have “fought the good fight” all these years since Bobbie Kennedy was killed in 68 by trying to convince the ever growing anti-gun movement that they were wrong. Now it is the turn of you folks to carry the torch and continue the fight.
How patriotic of you. Your forefathers are rolling in their graves.
 
Perhaps, but sold my guns so my priorities have changed and won’t be interested in 2nd Amendment movement and also won’t feel the need to walk around with a gun on my hip to feel safe. Lots of golf courses where I’ll be going so my priorities have shifted in my old age. Have “fought the good fight” all these years since Bobbie Kennedy was killed in 68 by trying to convince the ever growing anti-gun movement that they were wrong. Now it is the turn of you folks to carry the torch and continue the fight.
If that’s your mentality we’re better off without you.
 
Serious question.

If your pols are insanely anti-gun, and their constituents share this view, is it useful to contact them to ask them to vote against it? When they can't lose an election by voting for gun bans, why are they going to even listen to anyone calling in against the bill?
 
I will also note that I also got no response from two emails, one letter, and a phone call to my districts man, Rep. Jon Zlotnik, whom I guess must now be in the 'gun owners don't matter' group.

Quoting myself above. I owe Mr. Zlotnik and apology for assuming without the facts.

Below is his reply to me which I received today from this Democrat representative in the House for Ashburnham, Gardner, Templeton, and Winchendon.

Rep. Jon Zlotnik...
Thank you for your email. I do not support HD 4420 and I will vote against it if it comes to the floor. I have serious concerns about many things being proposed in the bill. In general, I feel the bill is a drastic overreach that is unnecessary.

I'd be happy to discuss this further or in more detail if you would like.

My reply to his statement of opposition...
Rep. Zlotnik,

Thank you for your reply. It is heartening to hear that you do not support HD4420. Your assessment of it being "unnecessary," is entirely accurate. I would be more pointed in saying that nothing in it addresses actual criminals, but rather it criminalizes the property and actions of the law abiding.

It appears that Speaker Mariano has moved this proposed bill to the back burner until the fall session. I will in the meantime continue to advocate for it being scrapped entirely. I am a member of GOAL and the Firearms Policy Coalition and along with other members will be watching very closely.

Thank you once again for your opposition to this proposed legislation and your time in replying.

🐯
 
Just do something


Dear Senate Majority Leader Creem,

It has come to our attention this evening that the Senate is interested in formulating its own bill regarding gun crimes:

By Alison Kuznitz

STATE HOUSE, BOSTON, JULY 25, 2023…..As the House backs down from its plan to advance an omnibus gun reform package this summer, the Senate is now considering its own strategy to potentially produce a comprehensive bill or combine some of the many proposals awaiting a committee hearing.

“I know we in the Senate are going to be working on our own bill,” Senate Majority Leader Cindy Creem told the News Service on Tuesday. “We’re going to now be working on trying to find consensus in our body on a bill that we can put out. We’re looking to do our due diligence.”


As part of your senatorial due diligence may we respectfully draw your attention to the following public statements made over the course of the past few weeks:

The Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association was requested to read the bill and provide their opinion of how passage and implementation of the bill’s content would affect both police and citizens of this Commonwealth. Here is their rather telling analysis:

MCOPA response to House Bill HD 4420 (goal.org)

The Ware Police Department put out this statement;

The Ware Police Department would like to bring an important matter to your attention: the proposed anti-gun Bill currently under consideration (HD 4420, An Act Modernizing Firearms Laws). We understand that this state-level legislation has raised concerns among law-abiding citizens who value their Second Amendment rights.

We recognize that the right to bear arms is a fundamental aspect of our nation's history and an essential component of personal and collective security. As members of the police force, we are committed to upholding the law and defending the rights of our community members.

A plethora of blatantly unconstitutional proposals litter this travesty of a Bill, too many to mention here; however, of particular egregiousness is the criminalization of carrying firearms in certain so-called “prohibited locations”, including businesses and private properties, EVEN WHILE HOLDING A VALID LICENSE TO CARRY. Not even off-duty police officers will be exempted from this appalling mandate.

Gun Free zones have been proven to have no effect on stopping crime, in fact they embolden criminals to seek out these areas as soft targets of opportunity, where their chances of meeting resistance will be minimal.

This Bill does not address criminals. Rather it focuses on making criminals out of law-abiding citizens and further hampers police agencies from combating true crime.


We believe that public input and engagement are crucial in shaping legislation that reflects the diverse perspectives and concerns of our citizens. Therefore, we encourage you, the citizens of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, who have a long and storied history of throwing off the chains of our oppressors (let not this tradition die in the hands of our generation), to actively participate in the democratic process by voicing your opinions and taking appropriate actions to safeguard your rights.

Here are a few ways you can make a difference:
  1. Educate yourself: Familiarize yourself with the details of the proposed anti-gun Bill. Read the legislation, study its potential impact, and understand its implications for your rights as a responsible gun owner.
  2. Communicate with your elected representatives: Reach out to your local, state, and federal representatives to express your concerns about the Bill. Write letters, and make phone calls to ensure your voice is heard.
  3. Encourage open dialogue: Foster constructive conversations about gun ownership, emphasizing responsible practices and the importance of preserving individual liberties. Engage in respectful discussions with friends, family, and neighbors to promote understanding and awareness.
  4. Stay informed and mobilize: Keep yourself updated on the progress of the bill and its potential impact on your rights. Stay connected with local gun rights organizations and be prepared to mobilize if necessary.
  5. Remember, your involvement in shaping legislation that impacts your rights is vital. By actively participating and voicing your concerns, you contribute to the democratic process and help ensure that legislation is fair, balanced, and respects the rights of responsible citizens.
The Ware Police Department encourages respectful and law-abiding civic engagement on this matter. We are committed to maintaining the safety and security of our community while upholding the rights enshrined in our Constitution.

Thank you for your attention and active participation.

-Ware PD

The Plymouth Police Department had this to say about the proposed bill:

PLEASE CONTACT YOUR MASSACHUSETTS ELECTED OFFICIALS IN REGARDS TO THIS BILL.

To The Residents of the Town of Plymouth:

As I enter my third year as your police chief, responsible for overseeing the 123 sworn men and women who serve the more than 60,000 of you day in and day out, my duty compels me to speak up.

I have read the relevant portions of H.D. 4420, a bill proposing a substantial rewrite of Massachusetts’ existing gun laws. Despite claims this bill attempts to stem the flow of illegal firearms into the state while increasing protection from gun violence, I see no language that would lead one to believe this rationale to be true. Instead, it appears the only thing this bill will accomplish is turning thousands of our law-abiding residents into criminals overnight.

This bill seems more designed to invade the privacy and vandalize and confiscate the property of law-abiding citizens than it does protecting them.


As we saw all too clearly this week in the State Forest, our issue is with criminals who have guns NOW, not those we stand to make into criminals LATER. Instead of punishing criminals or those prohibited from possessing firearms, this bill targets lawful gun owners who are some of the most well vetted in both the Commonwealth and the entire nation. There is nothing in this bill that mandates the judicial system enforce the laws currently in full force and effect.

When was the last time anyone served time under Bartley-Fox? For instance, we now know attempting to shoot and murder seven people, including five police officers, will result in just five to seven years in prison.

We recently had an incident in our community where a lawfully licensed firearm holder stopped the attempted kidnapping, and potentially worse, of a woman in a domestic violence incident. This gentleman was a contractor working at a residence across the street. Under this bill, if this Samaritan did not have expressed written consent of the victim/homeowner to have his firearm on her premises, he would be subject to a criminal charge. The same goes for an off-duty Plymouth County Sheriff’s deputy who saved countless lives a few years back when he ended a stabbing rampage in a Taunton restaurant.

Instead of being recognized as the heroes they are, they would be charged with a crime, and recognized at their arraignment.

In nothing else, this bill will make both enforcement and compliance with our laws even more complicated and confusing. As anyone who has had the unfortunate experience of trying to navigate our already-strict gun laws knows, it’s already confusing enough. The firearms law guide used by our officers already clocks in at well over 400 pages. This bill will jostle definitions and provisions all around the books with various changes, placing our laws into an even greater state of misunderstanding and chaos.

As a licensing authority which consistently ranks within the top ten municipalities in the entire Commonwealth for the number of firearms licenses, this is of grave concern to me.

As a law enforcement officer first and foremost, I take the duty of protecting persons from any type of violence as my ultimate mission. However, this bill targets the wrong individuals and needs to be reconsidered.

In closing, I urge our State House delegation to withhold their support from this bill as written.


Sincerely,

Chief Dana. A. Flynn

Police, municipal leaders in Western Mass. weigh in on state gun bill
  • Published: Jul. 24, 2023, 7:57 p.m.
Police, municipal leaders in Western Mass. weigh in on state gun bill - masslive.com

Meanwhile, other officials in Western Massachusetts said the gun bill misfired, and that attention was better spent working on bills that would make changes to the justice system.

In a written statement, Springfield Mayor Domenic J. Sarno said the issue of gun violence was best addressed by jailing repeat violent criminal offenders.

“If you want to reduce and help mitigate gun violence, you need to hold these repeat violent criminal offenders in jail,” Sarno said. “To keep releasing these violent criminal offenders back out onto our streets and into our community is foolhardy and only continues the revolving door of our justice system which harms and hurts our community and residents.”

Springfield Police Superintendent Cheryl Clapprood said licensed gun owners are not the issue, and added that lawmakers should create legislation that would address the small percentage of criminals who are repeat violent criminal offenders.

“Springfield Police Department fully supports any legislation and action that would help reduce and mitigate criminal activity,” Clapprood said. “Although I believe the intent of this legislation means well, in truth the ... language does nothing to address the issue of illegal guns and ghost guns being used in criminal activity by repeat violent criminal offenders.”

One law that could help, she said, is the Bartley-Fox law, enacted in 1975, which “could substantially help reduce gun violence if it was utilized more by our courts.”

Westfield Mayor Michael A. McCabe, formerly a long-serving police captain in his city prior to being elected mayor, said, “If you remove guns from folks who have lawful ownership, you are removing” a key deterrent against being victimized by criminals.

”We probably have in Massachusetts the toughest gun law application system in the nation, and a gun ownership vetting process second to none,” he said.

The mayor said law-abiding citizens contribute an important role in community safety.

In a July 14 post on Facebook, the Ware Police Department said the bill on Beacon Hill would hamper law enforcement and affect law-abiding citizens.

”A plethora of blatantly unconstitutional proposals litter this travesty of a bill, too many to mention here; however, of particular egregiousness is the criminalization of carrying firearms in certain so-called ‘prohibited locations,’ including businesses and private properties, EVEN WHILE HOLDING A VALID LICENSE TO CARRY. Not even off-duty police officers will be exempted from this appalling mandate,” the post says.

In an interview, Ware Police Chief Shawn C. Crevier said, “Massachusetts has great firearms laws. Legislators should focus their efforts on the court system enforcing penalties for these gun laws.”

One can be forgiven for thinking that the manner in which this entire bill is being rammed thru the legislative process reminds one of the quote attributed to the former speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives who remarked about the passage of a massive bill that no one had the actual time to read much less consider that, “we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.”

This proposed bill in the house is not offered with any data to support its effectiveness against crime or its needless attack on the rights and wellbeing of lawful gun owners in the Commonwealth.

Advocates for firearms owners in MA, such as The Gun Owners Action League (GOAL), have not been invited to provide data that Speaker Mariano and HD4420 author, Representative Michael Day, have, it appears, purposely failed to provide in their summary. This data would show that the provisions of this proposed bill do nothing to impact crime in MA in a meaningful way and will overnight make felons out of tens of thousands of lawful gun owning citizens.

If this proposed bill comes to the Senate, or a joint committee, I strongly urge you to ask to be provided with actual analytical data that supports these extreme changes to our firearms laws and attacks on lawful licensed gun owners.

When the Senate’s turn comes to analyze and discuss this proposed bill please ask for the data and hold hearings in public with all the individuals who would adversely be impacted by passage of this bill as it is presently written.

Please also make sure and ask why this needed to be said by The Gun Owners Action League, “It is clear that the state has never been interested in the true data. In fact when GOAL first met with Chairman Day prior to the recent so called listening tour, he became very agitated when we tried to present him with the government’s own data. He was adamant that it was not to be discussed in his office.”

Passage of this proposed bill will not have any measurable impact on the crime situation in the Commonwealth but it will in fact increase the threat to the safety and security of all citizens who will now find themselves at elevated risk of becoming criminal victims thru no fault of their own.

We note that the media is reporting that the draft of H.D.4420 is 142 pages in length. We find it rather remarkable that Chairman Day is capable of summarizing those 142 pages in JUST a 2 ½ page summary that certainly doesn’t address ALL of the parts of the bill nor any of the Actual Ramifications of just how enactment will actually affect the reported 600,000 licensed gun owners in the state as well as the all of the police departments and their officers.

It would be fair to say that the summary presented to House members is a blatant material misrepresentation of what the underlining intent of this legislative proposal hopes to accomplish to wit: the forced closure of all businesses who sell firearms and related products as well as the criminalization of all individuals who have spent the time and money to go thru the extensive licensing process required for lawful firearms ownership.

Despite our best good faith efforts we are unable to discover WHERE in this bill the emphasis is pursuant to addressing the actual underlining cause of the crime in the Commonwealth: THE CRIMINAL. This is nothing less than a feel good exercise that will do absolutely nothing at all to make all citizens of this Commonwealth any degree more safe and secure in their daily lives. The included GOAL summary does not cover the entire bill but it certainly is more honest and accurate regarding the effects of just how this bill’s passage would adversely affect every citizen than is the Chairman’s summary.

We respectfully ask that you take the time to study this partial analysis of what H.D.4420 will do if it is enacted into binding legislation before you write the Senate’s version of the bill.



Thank you for your time.
 
I am considering calling my state rep and senator and telling them:

Instead of a 140 page bill that has to be summarized into three misleading and incomplete pages, why not just submit a bill that everyone can read and understand? Concrete proposals to reduce crime and violence can fit in a few pages, and don't require any legislators to support a bill without knowing its full contents.​
Since we are dealing with issues here that the Supreme Court has recently ruled on, and appeals have the potential to reach that court again, clarity and brevity are to everyone's advantage in this legislation.​

I am holding back on this because I can think of a couple of ways for it to backfire. But the advantage is that a smaller bill needs to have an actual focus on crime and criminals, or it just looks stupid.

I'd be interested in thoughts from this forum on whether this is a useful approach, or best left alone.
 
Well what is it? All drug dealers? Or just the ones you like?
Your argument was all drugs should be legal because we shouldn't send a 17 year old to jail for 5 years for selling dimebags.

It is a complex issue. Stop with the either or argument. Stop with using the least offensive example and paint all others in that light.

There are a lot of grey areas.
 
While not a win per se we must remain vigilant. They will try to sneak this through again. A few things stood our to me , half of the legislature probably didn't read the bill and those that did couldn't understand it, the numerous emails, letters and phone calls spooked them and someone with a brain over there said with the Bruen decision they'd lose a court battle if this version was passed
 
I love the fact that some chiefs are speaking out against this oppressive bill, although too bad it's a small number (that I know of, at least).

Also, is tabling a bill tantamount to killing it? (he asks hopefully)
 
Your argument was all drugs should be legal because we shouldn't send a 17 year old to jail for 5 years for selling dimebags.
At risk of putting words in his mouth, no; his argument is "all drugs should be legal AND we shouldn't send a 17 year old to jail for 5 years for selling dimebags" or "we shouldn't send a 17 year old to jail for 5 years for selling dimebags because all drugs should be legal."
 
Apparently it might be. I’d be as surprised as you are
Supposedly there are 600,000 men and women who own firearms here in the People's Democratic Socialist Republic. If that is an accurate figure then those individuals would represent approximately 11.63% of the overall population. While that is not an earth-shattering number in and of itself it still is worth taking into consideration if one derives their livelihood from some sort of elective office. At the very least I am gratified to see the outpouring of disgust at this blatant attempt to deprive us of a Constitutional civil right. Maybe this will end up be the watershed event that causes more citizens of good will to publicly stand up for their beliefs and gather together. One can but hope.....
 
Just do something


“The Senate is “intending to do something” due to “so many shootings” affecting “so many young people”

So let’s disarm and attack the law abiding citizens who pay our salary. That’ll fix it.

These people are stupid, evil or both.
 
“The Senate is “intending to do something” due to “so many shootings” affecting “so many young people”

So let’s disarm and attack the law abiding citizens who pay our salary. That’ll fix it.

These people are stupid, evil or both.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups........George Carlin
 
Legalizing drugs will not reduce crime and the day will come when we will regret doing it. It's all about the Government getting their hands on more money to piss up a tree.
Most of the people I know who “smoke” regularly still have their own dealer on speed dial and would never set foot in a legal cannabis shop. The state taxes way too high. Would be same deal with Cocaine, etc. people will STILL buy it on the streets. Wouldn’t solve the problem.
 
Most of the people I know who “smoke” regularly still have their own dealer on speed dial and would never set foot in a legal cannabis shop. The state taxes way too high. Would be same deal with Cocaine, etc. people will STILL buy it on the streets. Wouldn’t solve the problem.
The bold part will do that.

There are solutions. But you're right, there will always be black markets; why must they be the only option?
 
At risk of putting words in his mouth, no; his argument is "all drugs should be legal AND we shouldn't send a 17 year old to jail for 5 years for selling dimebags" or "we shouldn't send a 17 year old to jail for 5 years for selling dimebags because all drugs should be legal."
They framed their argument for a reason

"And drugs shouldn't be illegal.

I mean, seriously? You would throw a 17 year old selling dime bags in jail for 5 years? These kinds of authoritarian policies benefit nobody."

There is a reason why they didn't frame it as

"I mean, seriously? You would throw a 40 year old selling 6 kilos of coke in jail for 5 years? These kinds of authoritarian policies benefit nobody.

Antis frame the what about the children the same way.

I am all about limited government, but I am not libertarian. I don't think society benefits from certain drugs being legalized.

On that note, I am done because this thread is about HD.4420, not about whether legalization is beneficial to society.
 
I feel like another bill should be suggested by us to these people.. If we could all come up with some common ground ideas without restrictions on our rights.

First thing would be to make sure these criminals are held accountable for any illegal gun possession.
I see many reports of repeat offenders/ "prohibited people" commonly committing these gun crimes that should have been serving time.

Min sentences of 5 years for 1st offense for criminal possession of a firearm without a ltc


The serious drug dealers should get a min 5 year sentence. No I'm not talking about some small time kid selling bud.( cocaine, heroin, Fentanyl etc...)


Ghost guns are not the issue due to the average person cannot get these homemade firearms and 3d printed firearms to even function properly.

The real issue is stolen guns, and guns trafficking from other states criminals.

Any gun trafficking conviction should have a lifetime sentence, especially because the person selling them knows the criminals wouldn't use for any other purpose than crime / murder

The serialized requirements part of bill HD.4420 wouldn't do a thing to any criminal they would immediately remove or do some mutilation of the all serials all together.

The restrictions on legal carriers of firearms should be never thought of again.

The criminals don't follow any laws so restrictions on my ability to defend myself only feeds the criminals mindset of no possible resistance which leads to more crime riddled city's.

I would like massachusetts to consider being a stand your ground state.

Because some people who do see others lives in danger are afraid to do anything attempting to pull a gun out against a criminal due to the legal repercussions that person the "hero" would have.

The approval of firearms we can own needs to be put to bed because what we want shouldn't need approval by the state to tell us there opinion of which guns are safe. A 10lb trigger actually reduces accuracy for many people, making the gun unsafe to use.

What does banning a scary looking ar15 style rifle actually do? The issue is the criminals not what gun they used.

When in massachusetts has an ar15 style rifle been used in crimes? Most gun crime involves a hand gun.

Also limited capacity magazines do not prevent crime. Most criminals caught with a firearm also have a "high capacity" standard magazine they don't follow these laws that are an unnecessary a burden / limitation to us law abiding citizens.


Let's face it our city's, and streets are flooding with criminals, violence, drugs , human trafficking, homeless, and mental illnesses. We need more ways to help put a stop to this not less.

We need the judicial system to hold these criminals accountable.

We need more mental health support.

We need safety and protection of our homes inside and outside the home.

The stranger's safety for those around us matters too anywhere we go!

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. But I do believe that maybe if they can realize they can actually "do something" with us behind the bill they would be better off.
I would like to see someone on our side introduce a bill to keep track of every nickle spent defending whatever passed in court.
It will never pass but make them vote against it on the record.
Even liberals in New England are notoriously tight with a buck.
They might get a little pissed if they find out they blew 10 million on something they knew was going to lose right from the get go.
 
Serious question.

If your pols are insanely anti-gun, and their constituents share this view, is it useful to contact them to ask them to vote against it? When they can't lose an election by voting for gun bans, why are they going to even listen to anyone calling in against the bill?
You need to talk to your neighbors and explain that the same pols can take away anything they support as well.
First they came for the Jews.........
 
What do drug cartels do?

They control production. They control distribution. They take money from everyone along every step of the way while adding nothing of value to the process. They put their own people in charge of every step. No one does anything related to the drug trade without the cartel's permission, regulation, and payoffs. If someone tries to run their own trade outside of the cartel, they make the intruder's life a living hell. And the cartel rakes in gazillions of dollars.

The State is a drug cartel. Prove me wrong.
 
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