Medical Pot Card denial - Bass Pro Shit show

[Mark from ?]

I'll preface this with yes, I usually don't go to big box, but they had a nice deal on G19 that if it had been fired or carried, I woudn't know it......between price, promotions and points walking out of there with it for 200 bucks. So yeah....decide Ill do it.

Walk in.... 4 guys behind the counter, going smooth as it can that Big Box....dude cruises up next to me, says he wants to pick up his online gun order.

Clerk gets it says I need your DL, guy pulls out his wallet, Med Pot card in it and clerk says....can't sell....you have that its linked in FL with the Fed system and you will get denied so lets not waste the time.

Guy goes fing ballistic, starts throwing out F you, F this, F that.....your Fing with my 2A rights.....loud. Clerk says nicely Im low on totem....Ill get the manager.....now all 3 other guys come over behind the manager and he tells the dude that hes a federally prohibited because of the FL Med Card......and it will trigger a no on the background automatically. Been there done that.

Guy flips out again, starts filming on his phone, all butthurt.....says he's gonna sue, etc.....now we have a crowd gathering where it was just me at the whole counter.....Im like WTF. I give the dude a look like I want to pound him in the face, the store manager says...go away and never come back again, dude stammers around and leaves finally.

I look at the gun counter guys and they are like....oh yeah....second time he's tried to pull that shit.......

I have no dog in this fight.....don't care either way about pot... so I'm just passing on the info.....but am wondering what is done in MA if you have a card. My friend an Ex Chief used to deny LTC's in MA on the issue.

Could care less really....but lots o drama at big box today!

 

[ware]

Idk why you would get a card when you can just buy it anywhere without one. I know a friend who had a card years ago and let it expire. They can still purchase ammo and such.

 

[CrackPot]

Any FFL can deny a transaction for ANY reasons whether they articulate the reason or not. It is something drilled into you when you get a license, you NEVER have to complete a transaction.

The federal disqualifier is whether you are an unlawful user or addicted to drugs (more words but that is the gist). Possession of a medical MJ card does not indicate you are an actual user or addict, just that you could lawfully purchase in your state. So no, it is not an automatic NICS denial. I know plenty of people who have passed NICS backgrounds with medical MJ cards.

Just big box being big box. Their business, their rules. And federal law supports their decision to deny the transaction based on their own discretion.

 

[silversquirrel]

What State?

 

[pdm]

What State?

Flo-rida.

 

[Bigfudge16]

I can't take the pot, it doesn't agree with me. However if i did I def wouldn't go getting a medical card.

Even before it was recreationally legal. The street pharmacist isn't gonna tell the fbi on you

 

[PaulR]

I can't take the pot, it doesn't agree with me. However if i did I def wouldn't go getting a medical card.

Even before it was recreationally legal. The street pharmacist isn't gonna tell the fbi on you

100%
Would love to stand behind the guy getting his rights trampled, but honestly, a little common sense goes a long way, sounds like this guy didn't have any.

 

[Bigfudge16]

100%
Would love to stand behind the guy getting his rights trampled, but honestly, a little common sense goes a long way, sounds like this guy didn't have any.

Same, I'm still on his side but pretty dumb to just hand them that info

 

[sbhaven]

Wonder how many MJ card holders either don't read the 4473 closely or just simply lie on the form's question 21.f.?

f. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

ATF - All FFLs-Sept2011-Open Letter-Marijuana for Medicinal Purposes

 

[Dench]

Any FFL can deny a transaction for ANY reasons whether they articulate the reason or not. It is something drilled into you when you get a license, you NEVER have to complete a transaction.

The federal disqualifier is whether you are an unlawful user or addicted to drugs (more words but that is the gist). Possession of a medical MJ card does not indicate you are an actual user or addict, just that you could lawfully purchase in your state. So no, it is not an automatic NICS denial. I know plenty of people who have passed NICS backgrounds with medical MJ cards.

Just big box being big box. Their business, their rules. And federal law supports their decision to deny the transaction based on their own discretion.

The refusing if you figure out they have a card is from ATF guidance. I dont think its gone through a trial yet.

 

[CrackPot]

Wonder how many MJ card holders either don't read the 4473 closely or just simply lie on the form's question 21.f.?

ATF - All FFLs-Sept2011-Open Letter-Marijuana for Medicinal Purposes

Having a MJ card does not make answering NO to 21.f a lie. The question is are you an unlawful user or addicted. If you are not currently a user or addicted, NO is the correct answer.

The mere possession of a MJ card does not mean current use or addiction

 

[Dench]

Having a MJ card does not make answering NO to 21.f a lie. The question is are you an unlawful user or addicted. If you are not currently a user or addicted, NO is the correct answer.

The mere possession of a MJ card does not mean current use or addiction

Again, the ATF has stated simple possession of a card is a DQ.

 

[In God We Trust]

Idk why you would get a card when you can just buy it anywhere without one. I know a friend who had a card years ago and let it expire. They can still purchase ammo and such.

I think it’s tax free if medical? Or cheaper somehow anyway. Maybe the medical people are just holdovers from before it was fully legalized?

If I was a pot user (and I am occasionally) I would just be responsible about it and not carry or drive around under the influence. It’s really not much different from booze except it doesn’t kill your liver or destroy your life (F right off with your anecdotal stories) and this nonsense Prohibitionist thinking needs to end. There are bigger fish to fry.

Mmmm. Fried fish…

 

[sbhaven]

Having a MJ card does not make answering NO to 21.f a lie. The question is are you an unlawful user or addicted. If you are not currently a user or addicted, NO is the correct answer.

The mere possession of a MJ card does not mean current use or addiction

See the ATF PDF I posted (or the image I subsequently embedded in a post edit). If the FFL see's or knows the person has an MJ card they're supposed deny the sale or transfer even if a person answers no to the MJ question.

 

[CrackPot]

Again, the ATF has stated simple possession of a card is a DQ.

No. They have stated that possession of a card is basis for a reasonable belief that the person is an illegal user or addict. These statements are NOT equivalent. A small amount of due diligence by the FFL can reduce the basis to less than reasonable belief.

See the ATF PDF I posted (or the image I subsequently embedded in a post edit). If the FFL see's or knows the person has an MJ card they're supposed deny the sale or transfer even if a person answers no to the MJ question.

It is very important to understand the document you linked. It is an open letter with an opinion by the ATF. It is NOT a CFR so not a rule that went through publishing and comment and final enactment. It is not case law. It is the OPINION of the specific member of leadership at the ATF.

In the end, the FFL may have to defend their decision process. While answering NO to the question and a MJ card seems to lead to no transaction, ASKING the person if in fact they buy/use MJ with their card and questioning 21.f could result in less than reasonable belief. It also requires that they are CURRENTLY an unlawful user or addict and does not reference the past or the future.

So sure, the "safe" thing is to deny the transaction based on a MJ card. It is not a hard requirement based on the legal paperwork trail from the ATF.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Drink all the alcohol you want, because you can't get addict to that drug.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

See the ATF PDF I posted (or the image I subsequently embedded in a post edit). If the FFL see's or knows the person has an MJ card they're supposed deny the sale or transfer even if a person answers no to the MJ question.

and that same person can go home an be a complete drunk. Makes sense.

The Form should have
Are you addicted to alcohol.

 

[MGnoob]

Don’t eat those gummy’s. You’ll fail a drug test. It’s right up there with asking me to get out of my wheelchair. You’re not gonna like the results.

 

[MGnoob]

It’s like this other officer at least I knew he had enough respect, not shoot me below
the waist

 

[drgrant]

I'll preface this with yes, I usually don't go to big box, but they had a nice deal on G19 that if it had been fired or carried, I woudn't know it......between price, promotions and points walking out of there with it for 200 bucks. So yeah....decide Ill do it.

Walk in.... 4 guys behind the counter, going smooth as it can that Big Box....dude cruises up next to me, says he wants to pick up his online gun order.

Clerk gets it says I need your DL, guy pulls out his wallet, Med Pot card in it and clerk says....can't sell....you have that its linked in FL with the Fed system and you will get denied so lets not waste the time.

Guy goes fing ballistic, starts throwing out F you, F this, F that.....your Fing with my 2A rights.....loud. Clerk says nicely Im low on totem....Ill get the manager.....now all 3 other guys come over behind the manager and he tells the dude that hes a federally prohibited because of the FL Med Card......and it will trigger a no on the background automatically. Been there done that.

Guy flips out again, starts filming on his phone, all butthurt.....says he's gonna sue, etc.....now we have a crowd gathering where it was just me at the whole counter.....Im like WTF. I give the dude a look like I want to pound him in the face, the store manager says...go away and never come back again, dude stammers around and leaves finally.

I look at the gun counter guys and they are like....oh yeah....second time he's tried to pull that shit.......

I have no dog in this fight.....don't care either way about pot... so I'm just passing on the info.....but am wondering what is done in MA if you have a card. My friend an Ex Chief used to deny LTC's in MA on the issue.

Could care less really....but lots o drama at big box today!

Nothing is done but it is AGAINST FEDERAL LAW to knowingly transfer a gun to a prohibited person. And fed courts have routinely defined people with MMJ cards as prohibited persons.

The clerk is a f***ing dumbass though, unless the guy literally whipped the card out onto the counter he could have simply claimed to have never seen the card and he would have plausible deniability "I only wanted to look at his DL"

People who put MMJ cards and so on or even an LTC in any other place that is not hidden in their wallet are f***ing stupid anyways, so I can't say I feel too bad for him, other than the fact that I don t agree with any of these stupid f***ing laws to begin with. But as a manuever having an MMJ card, LTC, or LE creds openly visible in a wallet to others that don't need to know is a f***ing stupid move.

 

[LakeTrout]

Fed

 

[GaryO]

Idk why you would get a card when you can just buy it anywhere without one. I know a friend who had a card years ago and let it expire. They can still purchase ammo and such.

I believe that recreational pot is still illegal in Florida, so if you get caught and don't have a medical card, you can get jammed up. Source...I watch a lot of police videos out of Florida and every time they find weed, the next question is, "do you have a medical card? ".

 

[Dench]

No. They have stated that possession of a card is basis for a reasonable belief that the person is an illegal user or addict. These statements are NOT equivalent. A small amount of due diligence by the FFL can reduce the basis to less than reasonable belief.


It is very important to understand the document you linked. It is an open letter with an opinion by the ATF. It is NOT a CFR so not a rule that went through publishing and comment and final enactment. It is not case law. It is the OPINION of the specific member of leadership at the ATF.

In the end, the FFL may have to defend their decision process. While answering NO to the question and a MJ card seems to lead to no transaction, ASKING the person if in fact they buy/use MJ with their card and questioning 21.f could result in less than reasonable belief. It also requires that they are CURRENTLY an unlawful user or addict and does not reference the past or the future.

So sure, the "safe" thing is to deny the transaction based on a MJ card. It is not a hard requirement based on the legal paperwork trail from the ATF.

I don't agree with it, im just talking about a specific incident i think in AZ if i remember correctly. The ATF made it clear card equals DQ. Obviously that's not in the spirit of of the question but that's what they said.

It'll probably need to go through court.

 

[cams]

Don’t know anything about med mj cards, but what’s the expiration length (lifetime? 5yrs? etc) and can they be issued to one family member (A) who’s caring for another family member (B), say with cancer, when B can’t go outside to the pot store?

Reasonable defense there?

 

[drgrant]

Don’t know anything about med mj cards, but what’s the expiration length (lifetime? 5yrs? etc) and can they be issued to one family member (A) who’s caring for another family member (B), say with cancer, when B can’t go outside to the pot store?

Reasonable defense there?

This was always an issue I had, like why can the ATF go after a caregiver who only is buying the MJ product for kid with seizures or something? The caregiver isnt using the product nor is "addicted" to it. But the courts dont seem to have touched on this vector at all.

 

[sbhaven]

Pennsylvania Doctor Denied Handgun over Legal Medical Marijuana Use Sues FBI, ATF
Examining court rulings and state and federal laws on marijuana users’ gun rights
Federal Court Rules Medical Marijuana Patients Have No Second Amendment Rights
Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals: Possession of Medical Marijuana Card Sufficient for Refusing Sale Under the Gun Control Act
ATF's clarification on gun ownership for cannabis users raises constitutional questions

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Clerk gets it says I need your DL, guy pulls out his wallet, Med Pot card in it and clerk says....can't sell....you have that its linked in FL with the Fed system and you will get denied so lets not waste the time.

Putting your MJ card in your wallet behind your DL, or where it is easily visible, is akin to putting your LTC behind your DL or in another highly visible spot.

Sadly we live in a world where it is best to keep information to our self.

 

[caboose84]

I believe that recreational pot is still illegal in Florida, so if you get caught and don't have a medical card, you can get jammed up. Source...I watch a lot of police videos out of Florida and every time they find weed, the next question is, "do you have a medical card? ".

Correct, recreational pot was on the ballot last fall, but failed to get the 60% majority required to pass- it got ~56%. It failed as it didn't allow for home grown, and was written to the advantage of the existing Medical pot companies who financed the petition drive.

The previous Ag & Consumer Affairs Commissioner, whose office issues CCW licenses and was a Soros backed dem, stated that an Med MJ card wasn't an automatic prohibitive under FL law and would issue a CCW to an MMJ card holder. Present AG is a conservative repub, haven't heard if he's changed that, but I expect he has.

When I lived in Colorado the feds made sure to list that a Medical Card was a deal breaker on gun purchase, and the local sheriffs who issued CCW cards would reject Med card holders for a CCW license issue.

 

[Dench]

Correct, recreational pot was on the ballot last fall, but failed to get the 60% majority required to pass- it got ~56%. It failed as it didn't allow for home grown, and was written to the advantage of the existing Medical pot companies who financed the petition drive.

The previous Ag & Consumer Affairs Commissioner, whose office issues CCW licenses and was a Soros backed dem, stated that an Med MJ card wasn't an automatic prohibitive under FL law and would issue a CCW to an MMJ card holder. Present AG is a conservative repub, haven't heard if he's changed that, but I expect he has.

When I lived in Colorado the feds made sure to list that a Medical Card was a deal breaker on gun purchase, and the local sheriffs who issued CCW cards would reject Med card holders for a CCW license issue.

Nikki Fried sued the government over it. She lost.

Ashley Moody is a cliche R, only a marginal upgrade from Fried.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This prospective buyer failed opsec 101:

- Do NOT have any of your LTCs or carry permits positioned in your wallet when you open it for routine business like showing a driving license, using a credit card, etc. I know of a case when a driver had to use police immunity because a NYS trooper noticed the edge of a CT carry permit in his wallet at a speeding stop. Discretion would have avoided that. Ooops, just noticed @drgrant already said that.

- Do NOT have a medical MJ card visible when opening your wallet for any purpose other than what the card was issued for.

- Understand the law. By demanding the dealer sell him a gun, while knowing he had an MJ card, he was asking the seller to commit what the BATFE declares to be a violation of law. Very rude on his part.

The display of LE credentials to the casual observer is not as obvious. It can serve to identify one as being entitled to special treatment while preserving the illusion that they are not attempting to identify him/herself as LE to get special treatment.