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Again. You have zero proof of that.
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No Guns For Pot Smokers
- Thread starter Garys
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MaverickNH
NES Member
No, not zero. Like all “proof”, some proof is better than other proof for different aspects of behavior. The quote below from the National Safety Council is a single study from 1990 on USPS workers that I have yet to see replicated on different or larger populations, yet it stands as “proof” 30yr+ later. That’s not good science and not good public policy.
”…employees who tested positive for marijuana on a pre-employment urine drug test had 55% more industrial accidents, 85% more injuries, and 75% greater absenteeism compared with those who tested negative for marijuana use.”
Making cannabis use legal does not make it a good lifestyle choice - but “good” is a tricky concept in the society vs individual regard. What makes our country great is freedom of choice, not the choices we make.
And making poor choices (like being unable to abstain so they can pass a pre-employment pee test), likely correlates with other cognitive impairments.
OTOH... that's racist!
DC museum criticized for saying 'delayed gratification' and 'decision-making' are aspects of 'whiteness'
The National Museum of African American History and Culture received a backlash after it published a graphic linking things like the nuclear family and self-reliance to whiteness.
www.foxnews.com
MaverickNH
NES Member
And making poor choices (like being unable to abstain so they can pass a pre-employment pee test), likely correlates with other cognitive impairments.
OTOH... that's racist!
DC museum criticized for saying 'delayed gratification' and 'decision-making' are aspects of 'whiteness'
The National Museum of African American History and Culture received a backlash after it published a graphic linking things like the nuclear family and self-reliance to whiteness.
How’s those alternative non-white values working out for Africa?
There's a few problems with the data and your mindset towards this.
1st, let's address the obvious. Marijuana, in terms of drugs being bad is about a 3 on a scale to 1 to 10. Alcohol is probably an 8 or a 9. So, with that in mind lets keep things in perspective.
2nd, drug testing for marijuana is not really a good indicator of much besides recent(ish) use. It doesn't show if the person is actively high. Or, it doesn't show if the person used to be a regular user who quit 3 weeks ago. The results will be the same.
Looking at the link you quote I can poke holes in it immediately. Here we go:
Find me a drug that is used "long-term" and "heavy" that doesn't create medical problems.
This is why we can't have nice things. I could make a 100% legit and accurate study about the short term heavy use of water and it's negative effects on the body. And that study would be legit, accurate and reflect the real danger of overhydration. But since I don't have an agenda or a grudge, well, I won't be part of such bullshit studies.
Even oxygen itself can create major problems if you "abuse" it.
Saying if you use to much of X it will create a problem is something that a 2nd grade science fair project would figure out. It's obvious and not interesting.
Circling back to our interaction last night, I asked you whose saying it's ok to be high at work? I follow that up with asking whose saying its ok to abuse anything? No ones making the points you keep attempting to refute. Who are you debating with?
Edit: English
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pastera
NES Member
Then they wouldn't have an excuse to grab as much money through civil asset forfeiture.
Forfeiture Is Lucrative for Governments Nationwide - Institute for Justice
By any measure, our data show forfeiture activity is extensive nationwide. In 2018 alone, the year for which we have data from the greatest number […]
ij.org
MaverickNH
NES Member
Fair points, all, and agreed on alcohol vs cannabis “severity”. I let my negative experiences with high folks get the better of me. A recently former son-in-law had to take a hit almost hourly. His poor choices and lack of motivation might have been who he was with or without cannabis - that’s my bias.
So, taking it back to pot and guns, when is it not OK to have guns? From the “Under the Influence” perspective, that’s a different point than lifestyle choices.
Should being an alcoholic or being addicted to any substance (cannabis, opioids, etc.) be a disqualification for disabling a fundamental right like RKBA? Nope.
If one was intoxicated or high when one used a gun to commit a crime, violent or non-violent, that should not be a multiplier or an excuse. If drunk or high when using a gun for self-defense, the reasonable man standard applies. Some would not meet that standard drunk or sober and for those that would meet it, it’s the situation and actions rather than blood-content status that is the factor. The reasonable man is not cognitively impaired by alcohol or cannabis in today’s justice system, so that’s a risk one takes on with alcohol and cannabis.
We punish DUI by restricting driving, which is not a fundamental right. Sheriff Andy Griffith put Otis in the drunk tank but let him out in the morning - I never saw Otis grab his car keys before he left, but DUI was only a crime back then if you hurt somebody else. Mother Against Drunk Driving might have driven awareness and increased DUI punishment, and DUI deaths dropped - partly due to car safety design. Stop & Frisk worked too - but violated a fundamental right of freedom from search and seizure and so was formally discontinued.
Carrying DUI & cannabis offenses over to RKBA is just another one of those statistical arguments that Bruen carved to pieces. It’s time these disqualifications get challenged in court.
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alan226
NES Member
Reading the numbers in the article you linked, taxes, fees, licenses etc would far outpace the money generated by civil asset forfeitureThen they wouldn't have an excuse to grab as much money through civil asset forfeiture.
Forfeiture Is Lucrative for Governments Nationwide - Institute for Justice
By any measure, our data show forfeiture activity is extensive nationwide. In 2018 alone, the year for which we have data from the greatest number […]
Earlier in this thread I highlighted some stuff from legal minds that touched on what you're speaking to, which is where is the line? Using the founders, there really isnt one. Clearly back in their day people were regularly drunk off their asses. And other drugs were also around, albeit the more natural ones. Regardless they are still very potent. Anyway, the founders didnt bother to carve out exceptions to the probably majority drunk/buzzed at all/most times society that was going on back then.
According to the legal minds I mentioned above, taking a medication incorrectly is a violation of the ATF's 4473 form. Say you're on a controlled medication and you don't take it as prescribed exactly. Boom you are in violation and if the ATF wanted to (and at this point in our history I wouldn't dare them) send your ass off to jail for a 100% trivial offense.
I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with people who are high. I personally haven't had any memorable ones with people high on pot, although I probably have a substantial amount of real life horror memories from dealing with family, friends and the public who abused alcohol and opiates. We're all shown different cards in life, I suppose. It's my strong opinion though from all the things I've seen in my life that the huge stigma around marijuana is mostly undeserved and or out of context.
That ongoing and probably doomed to fail case against FL and the ATF regarding medical marijuana is really sad. There are people on the case that truly benefit from the medical aspects of its use. One of them sadly decided that he preferred 2A over the relief of the drug. I think we as a society have failed big if that's the sort of choice we're leaving people with. Take a medication that helps you and lose a constitutional right. That's BS. And it breaks my heart to see it and makes me hate the people who support it. I've had enough of ignorant people and I've really had enough of sociopaths running the country.
The tldr is if a person can't be trusted with a firearm they should be confined to a mental institution. It's really that easy.
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the FF grew and smoked pot. there's this really dangerous way of thinking that people's rights are somehow alienable based on some arbitrary bullshit someone just made up. this shits in the constitution.
I don't completely buy that.
Yes alcohol abuse can even kill you. And it is physically addictive. But an 8 or 9 on the drug scale that includes say heroin, no that's over stating it. Most people drink their whole lives with no harm coming of it, potentially the human race adapted over time to do so even - we literally metabolize the stuff.
And I very well might rate weed a 3 on a 1 to 10 scale too. Just I'd say alcohol might be a 6 generally.
Either are about a 0 if not abused though, not harmful in any way shape or form. 2 drinks a day actually has health benefits even.
Folks who use weed all the time, the brain chemistry, mental problems, are apparent. They tend to act addicted even if it's not mentally so - ie spending more of their life under the influence than sober. Many risk their livelihoods (yes because of stupid drug tests) just to use the drug. Most heavy weed users smoke it and tend to hack as a result, it's not good for you. Deadly, nah, not harmless either.
It's tough for a drunk to wake up in the morning, get wasted, drive to work and spend their day around others while drinking. Or even to just carry on that level of habit outside of work hours, without some consequence like at least getting a DUI. Even if a person appears sober, it's easy to smell and test for. When they figure out how to give out simple and bonified DUI's for weed smokers even, it's all going to look a little different as far as it being a problem free substance.
When I rate drugs on the bad scale I use a lot of factors. How addictive is it? How easy is it to overdose? How easy is it to become dependent? How problematic is the effect of the drug? How many people abuse the drug? How many 3rd parties are effected by its use?
It's addictive for millions of people, it's LD50 is about 4-5x the legal "drunk" dose, millions of people are dependent on it, the effects of drunk people are usually undesirable, millions of people abuse it actively and an endless stream of families have been destroyed not to mention other incidents created by abuse.
With those factors in mind there's only one current drug out there who could give booze a run for it's money, and that's opiates. If I had to jam one drug in-between opiates and booze it would be PCP.
I'm not saying it should be banned. But I am saying it's pretty dangerous and not many other common drugs come close to it. I suspect the fact that it's not viewed correctly as being so dangerous is why so many people fall into its trap. We all know PCP is a real bad idea, ergo not many people seek it out. We all know opiates are ultra addictive, so thats in a lot of peoples minds before they start to dick around with it. Booze? Hold my beer. And that's one of the reasons why it creates all the problems. It's sorta like the casual deadly drug we dance around and pretend is controllable even though we've all had to deal with it's death and destruction.
I can't think of a single other thing in society thats legal that creates so many problems throughout all of society that people tip toe and dance around. If I had to bet people downplay its dangers because they themselves use it, and they arent comfortable with the fact that they are consuming something that has such potential.
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Just one. It helps with presentations, dontcha know?
Weed has the nice feature that it passivates to the point where unless a really stoned person bumps into you operating a machine, they aren't say slapping their wife around or getting into bar fights. I'll give you that.
But I've absolutely seen relationships, families, fail due to weed use too. Chronic users act differently and can make poor choices. As bad as alcohol addiction, oh hell no.
With that said - it's rare to find people who don't drink. It's prolific. If you took say my family, my girlfriend's family, my brothers family in law, extended family - I didn't choose these folks like friends based on shared similarities and I'm not aware of anyone who doesn't have a drink or two at every get together. Everyone has had weed at one point, some even stock a little at home, and nobody is judging about the stuff - just only one person out of the entire bunch is a significant user...
My point is, as many problems as you cite with alcohol, per capita as far drinkers go it's a very very small percentage who create those statistics, as essentially the entire population starts drinking in high school and does so until death.
Motorcyles seem popular, but if everyone say owned a motorcycle they would probably be deemed too dangerous and illegal for instance, weed use is similar - popular among certain circles, less common overall.
I'm not sure about the per capita numbers, although I see youre point. I'd have to see data on it.
But, to your point, do the majority of people deal with alcohol just fine? Obviously yes. Sadly though, I think a lot of good meaning people get into big trouble becuase they don't respect it as a drug. What I do at .1 and at .2 are going to be 2 radically different things, and i suspect that will be the case for many people. This is one of the many reasons why I give this one so much more respect. All sorts of interesting things can happen with just a few more dose/drinks/hits/insert use term here.
I havent met anyone whose had family problems from pot, but I'll take your word for it. I have no doubt its a thing.
All that said, I had a big brain fart and I forgot to even mention Meth in my drugs=bad list.
This is an interesting one, done by people in the know:
| Drug | Drug class | Physical harm | Dependence liability | Social harm | Avg. harm |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Methamphetamine | CNS stimulant | 3.00 | 2.80 | 2.72 | 2.92 |
| Heroin | Opioid | 2.78 | 3.00 | 2.54 | 2.77 |
| Cocaine | CNS stimulant | 2.33 | 2.39 | 2.17 | 2.30 |
| Barbiturates | CNS depressant | 2.23 | 2.01 | 2.00 | 2.08 |
| Methadone | Opioid | 1.86 | 2.08 | 1.87 | 1.94 |
| Alcohol | CNS depressant | 1.40 | 1.93 | 2.21 | 1.85 |
| Ketamine | Dissociative anesthetic | 2.00 | 1.54 | 1.69 | 1.74 |
| Benzodiazepines | Benzodiazepine | 1.63 | 1.83 | 1.65 | 1.70 |
| Amphetamine | CNS stimulant | 1.81 | 1.67 | 1.50 | 1.66 |
| Tobacco | Tobacco | 1.24 | 2.21 | 1.42 | 1.62 |
| Buprenorphine | Opioid | 1.60 | 1.64 | 1.49 | 1.58 |
| Cannabis | Cannabinoid | 0.99 | 1.51 | 1.50 | 1.33 |
| Solvent drugs | Inhalant | 1.28 | 1.01 | 1.52 | 1.27 |
| 4-MTA | Designer SSRA | 1.44 | 1.30 | 1.06 | 1.27 |
| LSD | Psychedelic | 1.13 | 1.23 | 1.32 | 1.23 |
| Methylphenidate | CNS stimulant | 1.32 | 1.25 | 0.97 | 1.18 |
| Anabolic steroids | Anabolic steroid | 1.45 | 0.88 | 1.13 | 1.15 |
| GHB | Neurotransmitter | 0.86 | 1.19 | 1.30 | 1.12 |
| Ecstasy | Empathogenic stimulant | 1.05 | 1.13 | 1.09 | 1.09 |
| Alkyl nitrites | Inhalant | 0.93 | 0.87 | 0.97 | 0.92 |
| Khat | CNS stimulant | 0.50 | 1.04 | 0.85 | 0.80 |
Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse
Drug misuse and abuse are major health problems. Harmful drugs are regulated according to classification systems that purport to relate to the harms and risks of each drug. However, the methodology and processes underlying classification systems are generally neither specified nor transparent...
www.thelancet.com
This one also is worth pointing out
I think this ones cite is in a book which I cant reasonably put here.
Safe to say people in the know don't consider alcohol a middle of the road substance. And from my anecdotal experiences, which I'd pay money to forget, I tend to agree with these charts. A lot.
namedpipes
NES Member
I'm not sure about the per capita numbers, although I see youre point. I'd have to see data on it.
But, to your point, do the majority of people deal with alcohol just fine? Obviously yes. Sadly though, I think a lot of good meaning people get into big trouble becuase they don't respect it as a drug. What I do at .1 and at .2 are going to be 2 radically different things, and i suspect that will be the case for many people. This is one of the many reasons why I give this one so much more respect. All sorts of interesting things can happen with just a few more dose/drinks/hits/insert use term here.
I havent met anyone whose had family problems from pot, but I'll take your word for it. I have no doubt its a thing.
All that said, I had a big brain fart and I forgot to even mention Meth in my drugs=bad list.
This is an interesting one, done by people in the know:
Drug Drug class Physical
harmDependence
liabilitySocial
harmAvg.
harmMethamphetamine CNS stimulant 3.00 2.80 2.72 2.92 Heroin Opioid 2.78 3.00 2.54 2.77 Cocaine CNS stimulant 2.33 2.39 2.17 2.30 Barbiturates CNS depressant 2.23 2.01 2.00 2.08 Methadone Opioid 1.86 2.08 1.87 1.94 Alcohol CNS depressant 1.40 1.93 2.21 1.85 Ketamine Dissociative anesthetic 2.00 1.54 1.69 1.74 Benzodiazepines Benzodiazepine 1.63 1.83 1.65 1.70 Amphetamine CNS stimulant 1.81 1.67 1.50 1.66 Tobacco Tobacco 1.24 2.21 1.42 1.62 Buprenorphine Opioid 1.60 1.64 1.49 1.58 Cannabis Cannabinoid 0.99 1.51 1.50 1.33 Solvent drugs Inhalant 1.28 1.01 1.52 1.27 4-MTA Designer SSRA 1.44 1.30 1.06 1.27 LSD Psychedelic 1.13 1.23 1.32 1.23 Methylphenidate CNS stimulant 1.32 1.25 0.97 1.18 Anabolic steroids Anabolic steroid 1.45 0.88 1.13 1.15 GHB Neurotransmitter 0.86 1.19 1.30 1.12 Ecstasy Empathogenic stimulant 1.05 1.13 1.09 1.09 Alkyl nitrites Inhalant 0.93 0.87 0.97 0.92 Khat CNS stimulant 0.50 1.04 0.85 0.80 Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse
Drug misuse and abuse are major health problems. Harmful drugs are regulated according to classification systems that purport to relate to the harms and risks of each drug. However, the methodology and processes underlying classification systems are generally neither specified nor transparent...www.thelancet.com
This one also is worth pointing out
I think this ones cite is in a book which I cant reasonably put here.
Safe to say people in the know don't consider alcohol a middle of the road substance. And from my anecdotal experiences, which I'd pay money to forget, I tend to agree with these charts. A lot.
Sure, but I believe that 2nd chart is mostly just showing us how popular alcohol is.
The first is saying in a scale of 0 to 3, with meth being nearly a 3, alcohol is a 1.85, and weed a 1.33 by various factors of harm. That sounds about how i see it, and it's not say an 8 or 9 on a harm scale with weed a 3.
We're not looking at this the same way. Booze is 7th out of 21 for dependency. It's THRID out of 21 for harm to others. The fact that it's middle of the road at 12 for self harm is what lowers it, and if you've read my posts I specifically dwell on alcohol and the harm to others as why I rate the way I do.
A 9 is wrong though. I take that back. As mentioned earlier I completely forgot about meth and I was using about 10-15 drugs in my head when I spitballed that one up. I think 8's fair. I could live with 7 but wouldn't be happy about it.
Technically according to the chart you like it's the top 28% percent of drugs = bad. which would be a 7.
I'm not sure how the data was collected on the 2nd chart so I wont harp on it. Regardless it's no fan of you know what. Almost like a trend here
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Meth heads seem to keep to themselves though. Interesting. 
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food, medicine, poison.
In that order depending on dose.
Everything falls in line.
For what it’s worth (nothing) my mom was a head nurse at a major hospital for forty plus years. She claimed alcohol was the single worst drug, causing the most damage the fastest.
In that order depending on dose.
Everything falls in line.
For what it’s worth (nothing) my mom was a head nurse at a major hospital for forty plus years. She claimed alcohol was the single worst drug, causing the most damage the fastest.
There is something to that. First world distributors have gotten quite good at producing ethanol with a minimum of damaging contaminants (methanol, Fusel oil), but unfortunately ethanol (and metabolites) are plenty damaging well below "overdose" range. Nicotine may be a close second in terms of negative health impact of the drug itself. And don't get my BIL started on the evils of refined white sugar!
Meanwhile, aside from a handful of studies of cognitive impact of teen pot smoking (pretty damning stuff, actually), most of what we know about the long-term health impact from "recreational" dosage of other substances tends to be more related to the delivery method and contaminants -- as you'd expect from inhaling burnt/vaporized plant matter.
As a wiser man than I has repeatedly said (maybe he is experiencing memory problems?):
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I absolutely agree about sugar and believe I even mentioned it in this thread.There is something to that. First world distributors have gotten quite good at producing ethanol with a minimum of damaging contaminants (methanol, Fusel oil), but unfortunately ethanol (and metabolites) are plenty damaging well below "overdose" range. Nicotine may be a close second in terms of negative health impact of the drug itself. And don't get my BIL started on the evils of refined white sugar!
Meanwhile, aside from a handful of studies of cognitive impact of teen pot smoking (pretty damning stuff, actually), most of what we know about the long-term health impact from "recreational" dosage of other substances tends to be more related to the delivery method and contaminants -- as you'd expect from inhaling burnt/vaporized plant matter.
As a wiser man than I has repeatedly said (maybe he is experiencing memory problems?):
The Willie Nelson quote is based on fact. The only recorded death from Mary Jane was a guy that got crushed by a bale falling from a shelf. I believe it was a govt facility.
Asaltweapon
NES Member
I couldn’t get there as a yute smoking it by the bale cause I sure tried.
MaroonedinMA
NES Member
No, then you’d get nothing because there would be no one to work.
MaverickNH
NES Member
Post-Bruin, I expect challenges to prohibited person categories to be examined in more detail, but only as individual cases pop up - not as NRA, GOA, etc., agenda items. Justice Barrett questioned lifetime prohibitions for non-violent felons in 2019 and the 2022 Bipartisan Safer Communities Act put a 5yr expiration on the ban for misdemeanor domestic violence. The Lifetime Ban part might be ripe for revision.
With almost 80% of states having legal medical cannabis and almost 40% with legal recreational cannabis (possibly another 8 states soon) SCOTUS starts seeing a consensus. The missing piece is splits in Circuit Courts. As enforcement of the cannabis PP category is rare, a direct decision on the topic is doubtful, but it might get swept out with a successful challenge to non-violent felons.
Gun rights advocacy organizations have bigger fish to fry than PP nv-felon and MJ-user categories but should opportunity knock, you never know.
With almost 80% of states having legal medical cannabis and almost 40% with legal recreational cannabis (possibly another 8 states soon) SCOTUS starts seeing a consensus. The missing piece is splits in Circuit Courts. As enforcement of the cannabis PP category is rare, a direct decision on the topic is doubtful, but it might get swept out with a successful challenge to non-violent felons.
Gun rights advocacy organizations have bigger fish to fry than PP nv-felon and MJ-user categories but should opportunity knock, you never know.
When CO first legalized, troopers in neighboring states were pulling over and searching cars merely for coming from CO. They claimed that to be probable cause to search for drugs.
Not unlike anti-gun states pulling over out state vehicles that come up for concealed carry permit.
