Risk of lead poisoning from indoor range?

Bob P said:
What precautions, if any, do you all take when cleaning your guns?
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I wear a mask and plastic gloves, make sure I have lots of light, and, if at all possible, open a door or window. I do have an overhead fan in the room. I lay down a mat on a surface, and keep at least one towel to lay in my lap (as I sit when cleaning).
 
Does anyone know the specifics on the ventilation system for the Loeb range at MRA? I know it's relatively good compared to most indoor ranges but I don't know how good it is ultimately.
 
Exousia said:
Dick, will you give us recommendations on what respirators to look for and where to look?
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Any of the online safety equipment vendors will have respirators. I wear a 3M 6000 series (here: http://www.northernsafety.com/Produ...intenance-Respirator.html?OPC=GP1523M02&PFM=B), but there are equivalent models by other manufacturers. The P100 pink filters are standard for particulate lead. As mentioned earlier, good fit is important.

ETA: With regard to the question of absorption efficiency raised earlier, fine particulate lead is assumed to have an absorption factor of 100% when inhaled - that means that all of the lead inhaled ends up in your body. Lead ingested into your digestive tract, as it would be if you had lead contamination on your hands while eating, has an absorption efficiency of about 40%. The dermal (through the skin) absorption factor for lead is quite low, almost negligible, but I have not been able to find any information on how that may change, presumably increase, if the lead is dissolved in a gun-cleaning solvent. I've started to wear disposable nitrile gloves when I clean guns, but I don't bother if I'm simply handling lead, as in reloading - but I do wash well afterward. I have not seen any real data, but the current thinking seems to be that the exposure in indoor ranges is more from the lead styphnate priming compound than from the vaporization of lead from the bullet, so shooting plated or jacketed bullets may not help much.
 
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bf66389 said:
I know someone mentioned getting the mask to seal properly is very difficult; a question- is a semi-sealed mask still better than none or do the filters have enough of a pressure-drop across them that it really needs to be a secure fit to work at all?
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I took the 40 hour OSHA course years ago, which covers respirators, etc., then promptly chose a career path knowing I'd never want to use it. So I'm no expert in the subject and I'm all for sharing information but THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTION FOR HANDS ON SAFETY TRAINING.

You can certainly do a "user seal check" yourself. Step 3

see http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/olppp/Documents/respirator.pdf

But step 2 the "fit test" is a little more complicated.

In theory, if the mask is 60% effective you could argue that it's helping. However, if you're talking about putting a mask on then sweeping an area with lead dust then you're just getting a false sense of security and a big exposure.

If there are any firefighters here they can tell you first hand how important a seal is.
 
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Another_David said:
I took the 40 hour OSHA course years ago, which covers respirators, etc., then promptly chose a career path knowing I'd never want to use it. So I'm no expert in the subject and I'm all for sharing information but THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTION FOR HANDS ON SAFETY TRAINING.

You can certainly do a "user seal check" yourself. Step 3

see http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/olppp/Documents/respirator.pdf

But step 2 the "fit test" is a little more complicated.

In theory, if the mask is 60% effective you could argue that it's helping. However, if you're talking about putting a mask on then sweeping an area with lead dust then you're just getting a false sense of security and a big exposure.

If there are any firefighters here they can tell you first hand how important a seal is.
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I was just going to say this... As I used to be in the Environmental Field some time ago...a good respirator doesn't do much good if it's not been "Fit Tested."

You need to go to a Safey place and buy one there. They will do a proper fit test and check to make sure that there's no leaks. You'll never get a good seal with a mustache or goatee. So if you're serious enough to get a good respirator, then lose the facial hair.

Also, remember that your breathing is labored when wearing a respirator. SO if you have Breathing issues...it could do just as much harm as good if you can't get in enough air through the filters.


I was talking to a few of the guys at Taunton that are on the pistol team. They said that their levels were in the "reportable" range, and when they build the new range, they have seen theirs go down into the low teens. I tink that they were up in the upper 20's and are now down to around 12 or 13.

And, the nice thing about Taunton is that they use the liquid trap. So there's no lead dust in the air from impact as the bullets never touch anything other than water...
 
This is the topic I feel that the anti-gunners will use to start closing down our ranges. Lots of good posts here on an important topic.

My 2 cents. Just about every range I have ever used or seen is filthy, even my own club. The lead hazard comes down to largely individual responsibility. Wash your hands with cold water immediately after leaving the range ( not when you get home ), NO eating on the range, NO open drink containers on the range, NO nose/eye/ear picking until after you wash your hands, change your clothes when you get home. One of the biggest factors is the ubiquitous range broom... "Sweep up after you leave". Talk about concentrating the contaminates in one area then sticking you face in the pile to pick up it up with a small dust pan. Ideally the range should be either wet mopped or hepa vacuumed instead. Who does that religiously? not me.
Unfortunately, one could spend over $100k on an indoor range with all the bells and whistles ( hepa vent, wet vacc every night...) and people will still test high. I'm on indoor ranges a several times a week. I also reload at home. My lead levels have been consistently in the teens. My doctor was not too worried about these values. Anything higher and it is a concern. My son is a teenager and his levels were in the single numbers. He shoots on an indoor range once a week at most. He has been preached to about lead hazard over and over. I feel that it is nearly impossible to have 0.000 blood lead level when we spend time on a range and/or reload. We have to breathe and just minimize the risks as best we can.
I've also been witness several times to shooters using the indoor range in the winter and Not using the fan. "It is too cold with it on." Yikes, that is not a good choice!
 
matt said:
Atta' boy! Screw science and medicine! Stick to the Man! [rolleyes]
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Hey Jack,

If you know anything about OSHA which it sounds like you don't. If there was any problem to exposure they would be all over this and probably would close every indoor range in the country or require manditory use of particle masks. That is the real science!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
sig2009 said:
Hey Jack,

If you know anything about OSHA which it sounds like you don't. If there was any problem to exposure they would be all over this and probably would close every indoor range in the country or require manditory use of particle masks. That is the real science!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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We're primarily discussing the very real lead problem at small indoor ranges generally associated with sportsmen's clubs, which usually do not have employees, and therefore are not considered "workplaces," which is what OSHA deals with. The one exception (in this thread, that is - there are likely other shooting facilities that are considered workplaces) is the S&W range mentioned earlier, and John, who works there, noted that his blood lead level is checked every six months. The fact that he does not have a lead problem is a result of the excellent ventilation at that particular facility, and should not be interpreted to mean that lead is not a potential hazard for those of us who shoot at the more typical poorly ventilated local range.

You may think you know the "real science," as you call it. You do not. I work in environmental toxicology and own a company that has done numerous health and safety inspections at industrial facilities in some 40 countries for Fortune 500 companies. I can assure you that you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. If you want to risk your own health that's your business - after all, plenty of people do similarly risky things such as smoking or driving without seatbelts. It's their body and their business. I just don't want others reading this to see your remarks and think that we're all talking about some imaginary problem. This is a real and potentially serious issue.
 
C-pher said:
I was just going to say this... As I used to be in the Environmental Field some time ago...a good respirator doesn't do much good if it's not been "Fit Tested."

You need to go to a Safey place and buy one there. They will do a proper fit test and check to make sure that there's no leaks. You'll never get a good seal with a mustache or goatee. So if you're serious enough to get a good respirator, then lose the facial hair.
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+1 I have a goatee and when I do knifemaking, deal with stuff a lot nastier than lead. The only solution i've found is to wear a spaceman-looking helmet resperator or to smear your entire beard with vaseline enough that you can actually get a suction on....

Ive worn resperators with my goatee and still blew black out of my nose when i took it off...i guess my beard isnt thick enough, haha.
 
Dick said:
We're primarily discussing the very real lead problem at small indoor ranges generally associated with sportsmen's clubs, which usually do not have employees, and therefore are not considered "workplaces," which is what OSHA deals with. The one exception (in this thread, that is - there are likely other shooting facilities that are considered workplaces) is the S&W range mentioned earlier, and John, who works there, noted that his blood lead level is checked every six months. The fact that he does not have a lead problem is a result of the excellent ventilation at that particular facility, and should not be interpreted to mean that lead is not a potential hazard for those of us who shoot at the more typical poorly ventilated local range.

You may think you know the "real science," as you call it. You do not. I work in environmental toxicology and own a company that has done numerous health and safety inspections at industrial facilities in some 40 countries for Fortune 500 companies. I can assure you that you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. If you want to risk your own health that's your business - after all, plenty of people do similarly risky things such as smoking or driving without seatbelts. It's their body and their business. I just don't want others reading this to see your remarks and think that we're all talking about some imaginary problem. This is a real and potentially serious issue.
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The range I shoot at is a public range. It is actually a Sports Shop which employs about 2 dozen employees so it would be considered "workplace". The range officers take turns for breaks and meals with the employees that work in the store. The only time the employees mask up and suit up is when they clean the range lead from the back stop and they have never had lead tests.. I know all of them and they have NEVER been tested so as far as I am concerned OSHA would get involved if there was any problem. They are not required or do they wear resparators as employees of the store and this place is far from being a mom and pop operation. So if you are that smart why is OSHA not involved?

Besides everyone that owns or works for a company that does any kind of abatement will tell you you have a problem and for guite a few thousands of dollars will fix it like the thieves that charges homeowners thousands to remove asbestos insulation from basement pipes. Screw that.
 
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sig2009 said:
The range I shoot at is a public range. It is actually a Sports Shop which employs about 2 dozen employees so it would be considered "workplace". The range officers take turns for breaks and meals with the employees that work in the store. The only time the employees mask up and suit up is when they clean the range lead from the back stop and they have never had lead tests.. I know all of them and they have NEVER been tested so as far as I am concerned OSHA would get involved if there was any problem. They are not required or do they wear resparators as employees of the store and this place is far from being a mom and pop operation. So if you are that smart why is OSHA not involved?

Besides everyone that owns or works for a company that does any kind of abatement will tell you you have a problem and for guite a few thousands of dollars will fix it like the thieves that charges homeowners thousands to remove asbestos insulation from basement pipes. Screw that.
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You are continuing to display your ignorance of this topic. As with most government regulatory areas, the burden of compliance is with the employer, and the fact that OSHA has not been around to check on your range/sport shop is not an indication that either (1) there is not an ongoing violation of the law, or (2) there is not a health hazard for the employees. Small businesses often fly under the radar and never see an inspector - that doesn't mean the laws don't apply.

It's difficult to provide more information in the abstract, so if you'd care to post the name of the range/shop at your convenience I'd be happy to contact OSHA for you and confirm that they're not concerned about the employees being exposed to lead in the workplace.
 
mlblo said:
Does using FMJ and/or "Winclean" ammunition help to protect from lead?
SigSauer academy uses only "environmental friendly" ammunition
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I can speculate why Sig requires the non-toxic:

The one class I took there they had us shooting steel plates at 3 yds. practicing the half-draw shoot. You really need the non-toxic frangible for that otherwise you'd get fragments back at you. It was fun: two in the "square" one in the "circle". Reholster, they reset, repeat until you've finished all your mags.

They really have a nice facility there and I'm sure their HVAC is great but their range area is so large it would be difficult to get all the air moving in one direction. From an air management standpoint the ideal range would be a pipe with a fan at the end so the air moves swiftly away from the shooter. The wider and taller the room the more difficult it is to get the air flowing down range.

Plus, they move the "firing line" constantly. When I was there it was really just an imaginary line so you're walking all over. If it wasn't non-toxic we'd be tracking the stuff all over.

Question is, just how non-toxic is that non-toxic stuff! I've never really looked into it but I suppose there are various levels of non-toxic.
 
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Don't forget the lead you bring home on the soles of your shoes. I try to wear the same shoes to the range. I take them off before I step in the house. I don't want to risk lugging lead onto my floors where pets and kid crawlers may be exposed.
After reading this thread, I think I may start wearing latex gloves when I pick up my brass from the dusty floor.
Best Regards.
 
A year ago my levels were 36. I shoot indoors a lot as Dick does in the bulls eye season. Local club just spent in excess of $100,000 upgrading the facility and the new ventilation is much better.

lead exposure comes from many different sources in this pass time. Airborne is the most dangerous, but picking up brass and reloading can be just as bad.

Borwnell sells D-lead hand wipes which are good to have in your range kit. Simple saline nose spray helps also.

If your levels are elevated, a good natural heavy metal cleanse can make a great difference. I used 3 regimens of This successfully to bring my levels under 20 in six months. I also took to wearing a respirator when shooting indoors but now I have stopped , wearing gloves when reloading, and taking 500mg OF Vitamin "C" two times a day with calcium supplements for good measure.

Now I have my levels checked three times a year with other blood work. Things seem to be on track.

High lead levels can raise a lot of health issues and I suffered from several. The worse part was perpetual headaches.
 
Gary, I'm glad to see that you were able to mitigate your situation and continue shooting.

Regrettably, most clubs have neither the money or impetus to do anything about sub-standard (health-wise) ranges until someone gets sick from it. The club I referred to above "talked" about it for most of the 24 years I was a member, but did NOTHING over that time to mitigate the problem. I understand that they recently had an expert look at their range and reportedly nothing he found contradicts my statements above. But when it comes to "the rubber meets the road", I seriously doubt that they have the $$ to do anything about it. I'd be pleased to be proven wrong.

That's why when I found Braintree R&P, it was like "heaven". LOTS of very serious shooters there just about live on that indoor range, and they can shoot with confidence that it's unlikely to negatively impact their health. Not to mention that it's a great group of very knowledgeable and helpful folks that belong to BR&P.
 
eisenhow said:
I started shooting .22 Bullseye in the Nashoba Valley Pistol League for Westford this Fall. There a some clubs with decent ventilation systems, and ones with really crappy ones. Luckily Westford's seems pretty good, I understand it was completely replaced a year or two ago. A few of them aren't so good, I've walked out of with a nasty sweet taste in my mouth. Some of them you stand and look at the plume of smoke during slow fire that just doesn't move! Based on some of Dick's previous posts I picked up a 3M mask and some P100 filters. Unfortunately I got a medium when I need a large. That reminds me, I'll place my order for a large mask this evening.
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A little update from this nearly decade old post

2/2010 12 ug/dL
7/2013 13 ug/dL
3/2017 8 ug/dL
3/2018 10 ug/dL

I have continued to shoot bullseye and a few indoor USPSA matches in the winter over the years. At first I couldn't get used to wearing a respirator and didn't stick with it. Sometime after 2013 I committed to using it and switched over to wet tumbling instead of dry tumbling for reloading. Got my levels down to 8 last year. Just had my physical today and they are back up to 10 o_O. I'm not sure why. Next time you have blood work done ask your physician to add a lead test. They may look at you strange, I know mine did at first. I think I'm going to have to evaluate if I shoot in next years winter league. If I do shoot next year there are a few clubs I'm going to be sure to shoot ahead and skip going to next year.
 
If you lost weight, lead which was sequestered in your fat cells might have been released back into your blood stream. There's a history of elderly people getting lead poisoning again as they age as lead content absorbed in their youth stored in soft tissue and bone leaches back out. Generally any number under 8 seems to not cause problems in adults. 8-10 starts showing signs of issues (blood pressure or nerves) in *some* people, but everyone's physiology is unique.

Ranges built prior the the late 1990s really do not have adequate ventilation for anything less than TMJ and even then if the backstop is still steel instead of rubber not so great. Post 1990s ranges typically have enough ventilation with HEPA that as long as nothing is clogged are perfectly safe with proper hand washing. I'm surprised how virtually no clubs provide decontamination wipes and hand washing stations aren't that well thought out. FUDDyness and machismo seems to be producing a head in the sand mentality when it comes to basic decontamination facilities to take care of 99% of the problem. Even washable static lead removing walk off range mats, why is it so hard to get a BoD at some places to buy a set for $500 bucks that last forever?
 
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I hate shooting indoors did it a dozen times or so my entire life. I go to the sandpit where I grew up or I go to the outdoor range at my club.
 
Indoors is fine, problem is most facilities that aren't commercial are pretty terrible. There are only a handful of private clubs in new england that have what I would call
adequate ventilation. A lot of them are skinflinted to death and ventilation is marginal at best... it's pretty obvious which ones these are, as they generally have all kinds of insane caliber limits and so forth... which means they either chinsed out on the backstop or haven't taken a big interest in maintaining/upgrading their indoor facilities.

-Mike
 
I occasionally do some batch routing/sanding at a wood shop that my employer owns and I bought my first respirator about 6 months ago. It's a 3M 7501 and it was about $25 on Amazon. I wish I bought one 20 years ago. I just used it the other day in my home garage when I cut and routed MDF and some laminate to make a small countertop. It gets a little humid under the mask and my nose sometimes runs but it's better than seeing all that crap coming out of my sinuses in the shower.
 
The glues in laminate and MDF aren't great to be breathing in as dust, even if they MSDS listed as non-toxic. It's worth setting up a HEPA shop vac to suck up all the dust as you cut. Problem with respirators is that they make your lungs work harder to pull oxygen through the filters and that's a lot of cumulative stress on your body over time.
 
One of the most important threads on here. So much great information and so many just ignoring it. No sweeping ever at any range, squeegie only. Don't let others convince you it is not a threat, be concerned and take care of yourself.
 
Ace Hardware has the D-lead handwipes too. They may not have them on the shelf in every store, but they will get them if you ask. They're actually called D-Wipes. I keep them in my range bag, reloading area, and they are handy for wiping down surfaces. I also use the D-lead soap for handwashing.
 
My company holds all its training and qualifiers at a big indoor range in CT.. Delta Arsenal

Your talking 30+ plus people shooting.. Its pretty crazy how much shit is in the air. I wear a breather the whole time.
 
eisenhow said:
Next time you have blood work done ask your physician to add a lead test. They may look at you strange, I know mine did at first.
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Yup I asked about getting lead testing done last year and he was confused and wanted to know why. I told him I shoot a lot and reload - probably not the best idea....I had to cancel my apt for the bloodwork last year and never rescheduled. This thread reminds me that I need to do that...
 

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