-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
Solar Panels in NE the good, bad, and ugly opinions
- Thread starter JoeA
- Start date
Years ago, I got four used panels off Ebay. (Canadian Solar 200W. Max array output is abt 400 watts).
I use them to keep a 48V battery bank charged up. My DIY Back-Up system is to power my sump pumps, to prevent flooding in the basement.
But, I have 3,000 watts of 120Vac from 6.3 Kwh Li-NMC batteries (after getting rid of the 4x12v lead-acid bank).
I run some lighting, Fios loads, this PC and the basement freezer every sunny day.
Due to the poor backyard location of the panels, (and trees) they only see the sun for a few hours per day.
So far this year, they have produced only 254 Kwh ($84) LOLzs. Glad break-even isn't a concern!
I see a lot of Woburn homes getting solar on their roof. Some of them have shade trees blocking the sun. So, I don't feel bad about my crude system.
My wife thinks that solar panels don't belong on our roofs. The house next door has a roof full of panels (they have a Tesla) and they love those panels.
This rig fills my need for AC power during power failures when water is coming into the basement. It's saved us from flooding 3 times over the years.
Plus, it's running this old Power Hog Gamer PC that was built long before 33 cents per KWH.
I use them to keep a 48V battery bank charged up. My DIY Back-Up system is to power my sump pumps, to prevent flooding in the basement.
But, I have 3,000 watts of 120Vac from 6.3 Kwh Li-NMC batteries (after getting rid of the 4x12v lead-acid bank).
I run some lighting, Fios loads, this PC and the basement freezer every sunny day.
Due to the poor backyard location of the panels, (and trees) they only see the sun for a few hours per day.
So far this year, they have produced only 254 Kwh ($84) LOLzs. Glad break-even isn't a concern!
I see a lot of Woburn homes getting solar on their roof. Some of them have shade trees blocking the sun. So, I don't feel bad about my crude system.
My wife thinks that solar panels don't belong on our roofs. The house next door has a roof full of panels (they have a Tesla) and they love those panels.
This rig fills my need for AC power during power failures when water is coming into the basement. It's saved us from flooding 3 times over the years.
Plus, it's running this old Power Hog Gamer PC that was built long before 33 cents per KWH.
rep308
NES Member
My neighbor down the street just got the full treatment, panels on one side of his roof, wife said no to taking out big nearby oak trees to improve efficiency. I asked him “ how do the numbers look?” as a way to not be too much of a busybody.
“We did it because it’s the right thing to do” was his answer. Care to guess the bumper sticker on his Prius?
“We did it because it’s the right thing to do” was his answer. Care to guess the bumper sticker on his Prius?
Sparkey
NES Member
I installed solar panels for a summer and we destroyed some roofs. 6 guys up on a roof in 90 degree day sliding around on especially steep pitch. look in the guter at the end of the day alot of gravel from shingles not to mention the 100's of holes you are drilling.
Random thoughts:
Never lease. Always buy. Always finance.
Simple Math- is your monthly loan payment for a system that covers 100% of your electric consumption lower than your monthly bill? Yes? Go ahead. No? Not for you. It is really that simple. The SREC credits you will get every month at just the cherry on the top.
About the holes on the roof- yes, there are there, but properly installed panels will not compromise your roof.. but will protect the shingles from heat. My attic dropped on average of 7 degrees after the panels were installed. Yes- I monitor the attic temps (among other things)
Seek qualified installer that will guarantee amount of generated energy. Most of them run modeling software that will estimate pretty accurately what a proposed array will make. Bottom line is if you don’t have a southern- facing roof - it ain’t going to work well.
Here is mine- it is a decent size and historical data is available for several years back. If you have questions- ask.
Solar works for me, but everybody needs to do their diligence. The location will absolutely dictate the financial feasibility of the array and don’t let anybody tell you that an eastern or western facing array will produce well. You absolutely need to have a south- facing space for most of the panels.
Never lease. Always buy. Always finance.
Simple Math- is your monthly loan payment for a system that covers 100% of your electric consumption lower than your monthly bill? Yes? Go ahead. No? Not for you. It is really that simple. The SREC credits you will get every month at just the cherry on the top.
About the holes on the roof- yes, there are there, but properly installed panels will not compromise your roof.. but will protect the shingles from heat. My attic dropped on average of 7 degrees after the panels were installed. Yes- I monitor the attic temps (among other things)
Seek qualified installer that will guarantee amount of generated energy. Most of them run modeling software that will estimate pretty accurately what a proposed array will make. Bottom line is if you don’t have a southern- facing roof - it ain’t going to work well.
Here is mine- it is a decent size and historical data is available for several years back. If you have questions- ask.
TrinitySolar14490 14.490kW
PVOutput.org - share, compare and monitor live solar photovoltaic output data
pvoutput.org
Solar works for me, but everybody needs to do their diligence. The location will absolutely dictate the financial feasibility of the array and don’t let anybody tell you that an eastern or western facing array will produce well. You absolutely need to have a south- facing space for most of the panels.
Last edited:
It doesn't need to cover you usage for it to be worth it. What it needs to do is be cheaper per kwh than your current electric. Even if you can't cover your entire usage for various reasons, if the portion you cover works out to be cheaper than what you would pay for the same amount from the electric co, it's worth it.
You are making it very complicated. Problem is you have no idea how much a kWh produced costs you because you cannot sell it. You get credit for every kWh you export, but it is credit in kWh and not in $ so… go figure.
That is why the math I provided is all that matters in simple terms - if your electric bill is $300 a month and your loan is $250 - that is -all- that matters. The cost of electricity is irrelevant. The amount of energy you produce is irrelevant. The bottom line is relevant (unless you are green and solar energy is your thing). If you are only covering partially what you use the math becomes more complicated and circumstantial. And I am a simple creature and hate complex answers
pastera
NES Member
A properly engineered and installed system doesn't cause any damage to your roof - not that naysayers will believe that but it's true.
The sun is your roof's worst enemy and the array keeps the sun from baking your roof.
In the winter the array helps keep snow off the roof - the issue is the avalanche when the array clears suddenly.
Agree that most of the time solar detracts from the looks of the home - If you have the yard for a ground mount and want to spend the extra money it's a great option.
pastera
NES Member
Thankfully the crew that did mine was more considerate and mine was done in the fall - all work done from roof jacks or off the rails as they were installed from the bottom.
And since the rack mounting feet are designed to be self sealing from under the tabs, the holes are no different than the nail penetrations to install the shingles themselves
pastera
NES Member
ccm75
NES Member
We have 32 LG panels on top of our shed dormer type roof.
You can only see them if you stand at the edge of the backyard.
I sell about $225.00 worth of excess on the SREC market each quarter and currently have a $875.00 credit with National Grid.
Helps me justify running the hot tub 356 days per.
so, far it seems to be a worthwhile investment...
You can only see them if you stand at the edge of the backyard.
I sell about $225.00 worth of excess on the SREC market each quarter and currently have a $875.00 credit with National Grid.
Helps me justify running the hot tub 356 days per.
so, far it seems to be a worthwhile investment...
Last edited:
You are making it very complicated. Problem is you have no idea how much a kWh produced costs you because you cannot sell it. You get credit for every kWh you export, but it is credit in kWh and not in $ so… go figure.
That is why the math I provided is all that matters in simple terms - if your electric bill is $300 a month and your loan is $250 - that is -all- that matters. The cost of electricity is irrelevant. The amount of energy you produce is irrelevant. The bottom line is relevant (unless you are green and solar energy is your thing). If you are only covering partially what you use the math becomes more complicated and circumstantial. And I am a simple creature and hate complex answers
It's actually very simple math. If you pay $100 per month on you panels and produce 1000kwh you pay 10 cents per kwh produced... then look at your electric bill and see how much they charge you per kwh.
pastera
NES Member
You are making it very complicated. Problem is you have no idea how much a kWh produced costs you because you cannot sell it. You get credit for every kWh you export, but it is credit in kWh and not in $ so… go figure.
That is why the math I provided is all that matters in simple terms - if your electric bill is $300 a month and your loan is $250 - that is -all- that matters. The cost of electricity is irrelevant. The amount of energy you produce is irrelevant. The bottom line is relevant (unless you are green and solar energy is your thing). If you are only covering partially what you use the math becomes more complicated and circumstantial. And I am a simple creature and hate complex answers
Even when your solar doesn't cover 100% it's easy: if Solar loan + residual is less than your old electric bill you're happy.
I had a spreadsheet that I put all of the production numbers and my residual bill into that tracked to the penny including interest when my breakeven point was.
I've long since stopped updating it because the system was paid for and I saw that I could stop burning a gallon/day of oil for hot water by swapping over to a hybrid water heater and turning off my basement dehumidifier.
Saved about $80-90/month in oil and the water heater used about the same amount of power as the dehumidifier so it was a no-brainer once the math was done with a 2 year break even
I've since swapped out a 13mpg 2004 Ram for (now) a Kona EV with a HF 4x8 trailer - I can move 90% of what I need to move with the trailer and only take an efficiency hit when I need it.
I needed a new vehicle since the RAM's frame rotted out so the cost was really the difference between an ICE that could tow a trailer and the EV (about 12k before rebates at the time and a wash after rebates). I don't count the Ioniq PHEV I had in between since I got more than I paid for it when it was totaled at 3 years and 60k miles.
Respectfully, not sure where you're getting that info from, but solar panels only hinder venting the roof during a fire. I'm not aware of any dept that has an SOP of "solar panels=let house burn". It may alter our tactics but at least in my dept we don't give up. If you're running a large amount of lithium-ion batteries for storage, and that's involved..... well that's a different story.
We are of very similar mind set. I too had oil with no option to get gas (Eversource wanted about $25k to run gas to my house since there is none on the street) so I opted for a hybrid water heater. Two years ago I also installed a bunch of very high end Fujitsu heat pumps and essentially converted my house to 100% electric. Now my oil consumption is zero unless we drop below -20f where the heat pumps quit and I spent a fraction of what I used to heat the house in the winter.
As I have mentioned elsewhere I also drive mostly EVs so the math really works for me…
tokenringhawk
NES Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2023
- Messages
- 17
- Likes
- 14
Not true... October last year I did a huge 24 panel uni-axis ground mount. That would rule out a good percentage of the market.
tokenringhawk
NES Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2023
- Messages
- 17
- Likes
- 14
Confirmed: definitely not true...
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2008
- Messages
- 13,321
- Likes
- 14,272
Your not wrong. I was in Hubbardston and we had National Grid and power was 1/3rd the price. Still high...because MA...my bill averaged 150 a month with no one home, oil fired hot water, and running a little bedroom AC at night sparingly when needed, and a dehumid in the cellar in the summer.
Down here I'm running a 3bed 2 bath Villa the same square feet as my one floor house in MA, on central air all day and night for 80 bucks month including electric hot water. And there will be no 3K oil bill coming this winter.
fencer
NES Member
I just got three quotes from very reputable companies. I asked all three of them...
I have had many fire fighter tell me that they would not, and the reps of every company said they will not spray water on a roof with solar.
Don't all solar systems use batteries for storage?
Captain John McClain - Sharon FD
John Parlatore - Middleboro FD
Jerry Bradbury - Dedham FD
Brien Perkins - Lakeville/ Manchester FD
Chief ( don't know his name ) Bellingham FD
No. The majority of solar systems are grid tied and do not have a battery storage system. A battery system adds tens of thousands of dollars to the install cost.
HarryPottar
NES Member
Oh Boy, I will try and not make this war & peace
I have stated before that I work from home and have done so for about 20 years; my wife is retired, and we spend an average of $400 plus a month on electricity.
We have natural gas baseboard and water heating, a gas dryer, and no central AC. There is no huge power consumption, yet the electricity is high. I have spent the entire 27 years of marriage following my wife around switching off things. She will have the radio in the kitchen playing, the TV in the main room on while surfing on her computer, and every light in the house on.
I have been researching solar energy for a few years, and many of my colleagues have installed it and are touting its benefits.
One colleague has not had a bill in 9 years; his system is paid off, and he enjoys $3k plus in credits a year.
National Grid recently requested that the MA state allow them to raise electricity charges by 23%.
I started in earnest around December 2023 and went through the MA state-funded (Mass Save) site to request blind quotes on what I wanted.
I had many quotes, so I went with the middle-of-the-road based on panel choice, installation, and manufacturer warranties.
DO NOT lease. If you can afford it, purchase and own it; that is the only way it will pay for itself.
I ended up installing (Solar company, not me personally) a 16.15KwH system with micro-inverters, but I have no battery yet, and that will be coming next year.
There are many issues with town and National Grid permits and what you can feed back to the grid for net metering.
The national grid has limited my system to a maximum of 7KwH back to the grid at any time. However, I can send 7 K all day long as long as the sun is out.
I finally got everything permitted, and the system turned on.
Solar went live September 6th at 08:50 2024
It's late in the year, but I have been producing more than I have been using, and the gap is still widening.
During the day, while producing, the production is split between 7k going to the grid and the remainder being used by the house; we try and do washing and any other big electricity source during the day. I still have headroom to charge a battery, hence the plan to add one. We have to draw from the grid at night because we don't have a battery.
Costs
The total cost was: $45,561.15
Estimated Tax Credits: $14,847.55
Total Cost: $30,713.60
My loan today stands at $45,000
When I get my tax credit, I will pay that entire amount towards the loan, leaving me the balance of around $30K
Yearly Bonus
So, during the day, the meter winds back, gaining me credits, and at night, the meter winds forward, using my credits. Even so, at the end of each year (full year), I should get back at least $2,500 - $3,000 cheque. That will go directly to the loan.
During the year, I should not have any bills, so I will pay the original $400 average bill + $100 off the loan 60 x $500 = $30,000
Don't forget I will be paying the yearly credit 5 x $12,500
If things go as planned, I should have paid it off in four to five years.
At some point, I will add a battery backup, increasing the yearly credit, so I should be less than that.
The best case is 36 months; the worst case is 60 months.
You still get 30% tax credit on batteries.
From then on, I can live with electricity bill-free, just in time for my retirement; the panels will most likely outlive me and my wife at our age.
I did a lot of math and calculating to get here, but for me, it made sense. I'm paying a little more than I would a month with just a bill;, but I have an end date, and no increase in electricity costs.
I wish I had done it sooner when I think how much I have sent to National Grid over the years.
OP: PM me if you want to chat on the phone about my recent experience; I get $500 is you use my installation company
I have stated before that I work from home and have done so for about 20 years; my wife is retired, and we spend an average of $400 plus a month on electricity.
We have natural gas baseboard and water heating, a gas dryer, and no central AC. There is no huge power consumption, yet the electricity is high. I have spent the entire 27 years of marriage following my wife around switching off things. She will have the radio in the kitchen playing, the TV in the main room on while surfing on her computer, and every light in the house on.
I have been researching solar energy for a few years, and many of my colleagues have installed it and are touting its benefits.
One colleague has not had a bill in 9 years; his system is paid off, and he enjoys $3k plus in credits a year.
National Grid recently requested that the MA state allow them to raise electricity charges by 23%.
I started in earnest around December 2023 and went through the MA state-funded (Mass Save) site to request blind quotes on what I wanted.
I had many quotes, so I went with the middle-of-the-road based on panel choice, installation, and manufacturer warranties.
DO NOT lease. If you can afford it, purchase and own it; that is the only way it will pay for itself.
I ended up installing (Solar company, not me personally) a 16.15KwH system with micro-inverters, but I have no battery yet, and that will be coming next year.
There are many issues with town and National Grid permits and what you can feed back to the grid for net metering.
The national grid has limited my system to a maximum of 7KwH back to the grid at any time. However, I can send 7 K all day long as long as the sun is out.
I finally got everything permitted, and the system turned on.
Solar went live September 6th at 08:50 2024
It's late in the year, but I have been producing more than I have been using, and the gap is still widening.
During the day, while producing, the production is split between 7k going to the grid and the remainder being used by the house; we try and do washing and any other big electricity source during the day. I still have headroom to charge a battery, hence the plan to add one. We have to draw from the grid at night because we don't have a battery.
Costs
The total cost was: $45,561.15
Estimated Tax Credits: $14,847.55
Total Cost: $30,713.60
My loan today stands at $45,000
When I get my tax credit, I will pay that entire amount towards the loan, leaving me the balance of around $30K
Yearly Bonus
So, during the day, the meter winds back, gaining me credits, and at night, the meter winds forward, using my credits. Even so, at the end of each year (full year), I should get back at least $2,500 - $3,000 cheque. That will go directly to the loan.
During the year, I should not have any bills, so I will pay the original $400 average bill + $100 off the loan 60 x $500 = $30,000
Don't forget I will be paying the yearly credit 5 x $12,500
If things go as planned, I should have paid it off in four to five years.
At some point, I will add a battery backup, increasing the yearly credit, so I should be less than that.
The best case is 36 months; the worst case is 60 months.
You still get 30% tax credit on batteries.
From then on, I can live with electricity bill-free, just in time for my retirement; the panels will most likely outlive me and my wife at our age.
I did a lot of math and calculating to get here, but for me, it made sense. I'm paying a little more than I would a month with just a bill;, but I have an end date, and no increase in electricity costs.
I wish I had done it sooner when I think how much I have sent to National Grid over the years.
OP: PM me if you want to chat on the phone about my recent experience; I get $500 is you use my installation company
fencer
NES Member
If the sun is out, the only way to drop the voltage of a solar panel is to throw a tarp over it.
600 volts - DC
Solar Safety for Firefighters: The Myths and the Facts
Most of the renewable energy market is geared towards "grid-tied" systems where the homeowner sells electricity to the utility when there's extra being produced. These systems don't run at benign car
www.lafra.org
pastera
NES Member
Residential systems installed in the last 15 years at a minimum have safety circuits built in to drop the array voltage.If the sun is out, the only way to drop the voltage of a solar panel is to throw a tarp over it.
600 volts - DC
Solar Safety for Firefighters: The Myths and the Facts
Most of the renewable energy market is geared towards "grid-tied" systems where the homeowner sells electricity to the utility when there's extra being produced. These systems don't run at benign car
The max voltage you will find in my system if the safety lockouts pulled is on the short cable from each panel to the optimizer and that's about 36 volts max under ideal conditions.
It simply isn't an issue with today's residential systems - even microinverter systems kill the high voltage as soon as the grid tie goes down.
Plenty of misinformation out there about solar pushed by those that either don't like it or those looking for angle to get something.
I witnessed the testing of the firefighter protection standing beside the firefighters there to see that the system met code before it was given the okay to operate.
DC bus went from over 380v to a couple of volts well within the allowed time.
If a fire dept is "spraying water" on a roof without solar panels, generally that means the bldg is lost and firefighters are in defensive operations. We wouldn't put water on solar panels because there is no way to turn them off, unless you cover all of them, as the photo receptors are "always on" if they receive light. I imagine everyone can agree that water & electricity is bad juju. Vertical ventilation is done by cutting holes in roofs to allow smoke/gases/heat out while fire suppression is done by putting water one the fire inside (generally). If we're unable to vent vertically because of obstructions or other hazards, horizontal ventilation is done by taking out the windows on the upper floors, closing doors to areas not involved, using hydraulic ventilation by spraying fog streams out the window to pull smoke & gasses out of the area, etc. These are generalities, and while every dept is different, these concepts are probably widely used. And I would agree with one of the other fellas that said most solar systems don't have the storage systems right now, and they are tied to the grid.
HarryPottar
NES Member
I'm sure you know way more about this subject than I ever will; you sound like you're connected to the fire dept.
Our recently installed system, the town permits required firefighter paths on the roofs, and we had three roofs covered in panels. They are grid-tied but shut down when the grid goes down. We were required to have rapid shutdown on the outside of the house for firefighters, and we have micro converters on each panel, so the only flow left would be the small enclosed connection to the panel and its matching micro converter. AC is safer than DC, so the conversion is done at source.
Again, you know way more than me about panel water, and I'm sure you are referencing a high-pressure hose, but the panels are exposed to the elements and get rain and snow on them.
Fingers crossed, we never have to find out.
pastera
NES Member
Holy shit - does anyone read the industry magazines or take classes?
All modern grid tied systems have protection circuits that shut down the array in the event of grid loss.
The hookup from the solar system to the grid is run right to the side of the meter socket where a disconnect is installed specifically for that purpose.
The max voltage anyone will see is a single panel voltage that will be below 60v which is the max possible under laboratory conditions never seen in real life.
I'm assuming if firefighters are that cautious of solar installs then they must cut power to a house before hitting it with water since the grid will supply a hell of a lot more power than any residential array. And by killing the grid feed the array automatically shuts down.
Sounds like the industry is in serious need of training for residential solar.
Now if we are talking an EV or hybrid - yeah those can cancel your Christmas plans real fast - and it seems that firefighters douse those regularly.
pastera
NES Member
Dude - it seems this subject is squarely in the area of gun shop legal advice.
The guys that design, build and certified the safety systems required by both electrical and fire safety code are idiots like all Engineers so even though the installers demonstrate the safety system as part of the sell-off, it really doesn't actually work...
HarryPottar
NES Member
I'm an Engineer; in fact, I'm a Senior Engineer. Does that make me a Senior idiot?
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
