-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
Solar Panels in NE the good, bad, and ugly opinions
- Thread starter JoeA
- Start date
Most systems are grid-tied. If the grid goes down, your solar goes down.
There are systems that will power your home if the grid goes down, but those are designed differently, have a battery backup, and cost on the order of 2 to 3 times what a simple grid-tied system costs. Plus now you have a ginormous lithium battery inside your home.
I was watching a video on YouTube where a guy was describing his system and another YouTuber’s system. Both have battery backups. If I recall correctly, they were approaching $100k. I suspect their systems are seriously gold-plated, but for a battery backup, solar panels, inverters, etc., I think you are likely well north of $50k.
Last edited:
That fellow with the gold-plated system had a smart circuit breaker panel. The panel tracked the power usage on each circuit and fed the data to a reporting system. In addition, his system would load shed based on software defined rules as the battery charge decreased. So he could set it up so that non-essential loads were shed first, keeping the battery power for things like the furnace and fridge.
BroncoAZ
NES Member
Are you certain of the $2500-3000 yearly credits from National Grid are in the form of a check and not bill credits? I’m serviced by Eversource and its bill credits that apparently never expire but can’t be turned into cash. I could transfer them to another meter to use them up, or transfer them to another home if I moved in the future. My system is a little smaller than yours and I’m at $1600 in credits from February to August.Oh Boy, I will try and not make this war & peace
I have stated before that I work from home and have done so for about 20 years; my wife is retired, and we spend an average of $400 plus a month on electricity.
We have natural gas baseboard and water heating, a gas dryer, and no central AC. There is no huge power consumption, yet the electricity is high. I have spent the entire 27 years of marriage following my wife around switching off things. She will have the radio in the kitchen playing, the TV in the main room on while surfing on her computer, and every light in the house on.
I have been researching solar energy for a few years, and many of my colleagues have installed it and are touting its benefits.
One colleague has not had a bill in 9 years; his system is paid off, and he enjoys $3k plus in credits a year.
National Grid recently requested that the MA state allow them to raise electricity charges by 23%.
I started in earnest around December 2023 and went through the MA state-funded (Mass Save) site to request blind quotes on what I wanted.
I had many quotes, so I went with the middle-of-the-road based on panel choice, installation, and manufacturer warranties.
DO NOT lease. If you can afford it, purchase and own it; that is the only way it will pay for itself.
I ended up installing (Solar company, not me personally) a 16.15KwH system with micro-inverters, but I have no battery yet, and that will be coming next year.
There are many issues with town and National Grid permits and what you can feed back to the grid for net metering.
The national grid has limited my system to a maximum of 7KwH back to the grid at any time. However, I can send 7 K all day long as long as the sun is out.
I finally got everything permitted, and the system turned on.
Solar went live September 6th at 08:50 2024
It's late in the year, but I have been producing more than I have been using, and the gap is still widening.
During the day, while producing, the production is split between 7k going to the grid and the remainder being used by the house; we try and do washing and any other big electricity source during the day. I still have headroom to charge a battery, hence the plan to add one. We have to draw from the grid at night because we don't have a battery.
Costs
The total cost was: $45,561.15
Estimated Tax Credits: $14,847.55
Total Cost: $30,713.60
My loan today stands at $45,000
When I get my tax credit, I will pay that entire amount towards the loan, leaving me the balance of around $30K
Yearly Bonus
So, during the day, the meter winds back, gaining me credits, and at night, the meter winds forward, using my credits. Even so, at the end of each year (full year), I should get back at least $2,500 - $3,000 cheque. That will go directly to the loan.
During the year, I should not have any bills, so I will pay the original $400 average bill + $100 off the loan 60 x $500 = $30,000
Don't forget I will be paying the yearly credit 5 x $12,500
If things go as planned, I should have paid it off in four to five years.
At some point, I will add a battery backup, increasing the yearly credit, so I should be less than that.
The best case is 36 months; the worst case is 60 months.
You still get 30% tax credit on batteries.
From then on, I can live with electricity bill-free, just in time for my retirement; the panels will most likely outlive me and my wife at our age.
I did a lot of math and calculating to get here, but for me, it made sense. I'm paying a little more than I would a month with just a bill;, but I have an end date, and no increase in electricity costs.
I wish I had done it sooner when I think how much I have sent to National Grid over the years.
OP: PM me if you want to chat on the phone about my recent experience; I get $500 is you use my installation company
I don’t really need batteries right now, but I’m not disinterested in having them. At this point the only thing they would give me is islanding where I can continue to make and use my solar during a grid outage. I have a 20kW natural gas generator, I’d be inclined to wait until that needs replacement to add batteries.
HarryPottar
NES Member
Yes, 100% certain that I will get a cheque. They are credits that roll month to month, around Feb each year they settle the account, either you owe them or they owe you.
You can have the option of a broker selling your excess power as well, they take 10% commission.
if you have a battery back up, you can get 30% tax credit. Also there is a MA summer program, if you allow MA to use your battery during brown outs to help boost the grid, you can get up to an additional $2,500 a year. Only runs through summer months and o lots of safety measures.
Lank
NES Member
Yup, I'm holding out for quicker ROI.
You get credits for the kWh you don’t use. Generally you accumulate them over spring/summer/fall and use them over the winter. The goal is a zero sum game as you cannot sell them. But you can transfer them to another account you own.
You also get a paper check every month for the first 10 years (if memory serves me right) based on how much you have produced (regardless of how much you used). This is taxable income and you get a 1099 on it. With my system I get an average of $2k per year.
Last edited:
Dennis in MA
NES Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2007
- Messages
- 40,753
- Likes
- 36,230
THIS!
My kids are paying $380 a month for the financing. (Again - former owner - we euphamistically refer to him as Fat Mark - was likely mentally challenged.) It alleges to cover 90% of the electric bill.
I get that they have a pool (for 4 months of the year) and A/C, but THREE-EIGHTY A MONTH?!?!?!?!? They should have never done it. Even Fat Mark and his adult-kid family was likely not using 380/mo in electric. What a f'ing idiot.
But even better, in New England, just DON'T DO IT! Gosh I've learned a lot. It just is not a great deal. It might work out. And over the next 4 years if Trump gets elected, you look like a moron b/c electric rates will fall with the lower price of natural gas.
Is that aimed at me? Because while I'm not an electrician and I don't claim to know everything, as a 21 yr firefighter & a hazmat tech for 7 I do take a quite a few classes & training sessions so I have a clue. Not everything residential or commercial is new & up to code, there's a lot of legacy stuff up there, and even of self installed/illegal stuff. Not to mention labels fade or wear off, or the urgency of a situation when the bldg is on fire. Yes, some systems can disconnect, but it doesn't stop the panels from making electricity. Some departments are using salvage covers, some are using sprays to cover the panels, and some will just avoid the roofs under fire conditions. And yes, in a regular house fire generally we try to send someone to pull the main power at the breaker box. And putting out EV fires is a long process, some are doing it wrong. It's far better & quicker to let it burn and protect the exposures.
pastera
NES Member
No, not personal just an observation of the General failure of technology solutions not to be kept up with in training packages and for management knowledge to completely stagnate when they move from a 'do it' person to a plan person.
Given the requirement (in Mass) for the fire department to be involved in the approval for a residential solar install, I thought that there would be some knowledge of which homes have modern systems that are safe.
If you pull up to a home with solar that's not on the safe list then assume the array is live even if power feed is cut.
As far as unapproved systems - yeah, if it's not on the department's list of approved solar installs assume it has battery storage and treat accordingly.
The guys that work my neighborhood seem to have received training given how they responded to a tree hitting my neighbors home (and damaging the power feed)
They notified us that they were locking out my array before any work including tmlp moving wires off a parked car.
We are in SW NH. We have offgid solar that supplies 60% of our yearly electricity usage. We have 15kW of panels and 105kWh of battery storage. I built and installed the system myself. It was about $34,000 in materials.
I would not personally do grid tied, because when the grid goes down, your power goes down. This defeats the purpose to me.
How viable solar is for you is VERY dependent on your property, where you would put it, the vegetation around you, the local weather, and ground terrain your property is on/surrounded by.
We have generated 12.5 megawatt hours in just under 2 years.
I would not personally do grid tied, because when the grid goes down, your power goes down. This defeats the purpose to me.
How viable solar is for you is VERY dependent on your property, where you would put it, the vegetation around you, the local weather, and ground terrain your property is on/surrounded by.
We have generated 12.5 megawatt hours in just under 2 years.
BroncoAZ
NES Member
The programs have changed in the past number of years. I have some friends who did solar 5-8 years ago who are receiving a monthly checks instead of credits from the utility company. I’m only getting paid for the renewable energy credits directly, I’m anticipating maybe $450-600 in REC credits annually at $35 per MWh.
The way it was presented to me was that a grid tied system with a battery was set up for “islanding” where you can separate from the grid and run off your solar and batteries when the grid is down.
12.5 MWh in two years with 15kW of panels seems very low. Mine is under 15 kW and had produced 13.1 MWh since 1/31/2024. Maybe there are substantial losses from when the batteries are full and the electricity has no place to go?
My production to date.
He used Sunrun.
There are "losses" when the batteries are full. I'm also on the north side of a hill in a forest, which limits daylight hours.
Most people do not live on a southern facing slope with low vegetation with no neighbors. This is why your specific property is important to making decisions and designing your system.
If you consider roof mount, member you're going to need to remove those panels to repair/replace your roof and adding the panels lowers your allowable snowload. It also greatly increases the possibility of ice dams if you don't install methods to melt winter precipitation.
The upside to our system? Our power has never turned off in 2 years and we can go 2-3 days without considering turning on a generator. We also have Starlink, so we always have internet.
Most people do not live on a southern facing slope with low vegetation with no neighbors. This is why your specific property is important to making decisions and designing your system.
If you consider roof mount, member you're going to need to remove those panels to repair/replace your roof and adding the panels lowers your allowable snowload. It also greatly increases the possibility of ice dams if you don't install methods to melt winter precipitation.
The upside to our system? Our power has never turned off in 2 years and we can go 2-3 days without considering turning on a generator. We also have Starlink, so we always have internet.
pastera
NES Member
Snow load is definitely an issue for lower pitched roofs.
Mine is 12/12 so the array clears itself soon after the sun comes out or I can hit the lower edge with the roof rake and induce an avalanche to clear.
As far as ice damns, if you clear between the lower edge of the array and the gutter there should be plenty of airflow to keep things clear.
However those observations are based on steep pitches.
Rockrivr1
NES Member
So reading through this the one interesting point I want to clarify is that unless you have a south facing roof it may not be worth having solar. So my roof pitches are East on the front and West on the back. So does that make my house not a good prospect for solar?
pastera
NES Member
Marginal at best depending on slope.
A 3/12 pitch E/W roof might be okay.
But a 12/12 will just suck since the sun is only over the panels for a short part of the day
Go on PVWatts and do a system design for your home. Doesn't cost anything.
Last edited:
Yup. There are online calculators where you can plug in angle, direction and a location to get your average equivalent full sun hours. You may also hear the term Peak Hours. These two descriptions are essentially calculations that give you the effective expected output for your panels.
Example: I have 15kW of panels. In December my Peak Hours would be 3. So under ideal conditions with a south facing array at the perfect panel angle I could produce 45kWh of power. This never happens, so be aware of that.
Here is a simple calculator that tells you peak hours by zip code. Please keep in mind to get this power you would need panels adjusted monthly or on trackers and 100% clear skies all the time. 90% of sifting through the solar journey is finding your way through the bullshit of the "ideal case".
Check Peak Sun Hours by Zip Code, City or State
Use our free tool to calculate the average solar/sun hours that your area receives every month. You can search by zip code or city or state or even street address
solarstory.com
Rockrivr1
NES Member
Yup. There are online calculators where you can plug in angle, direction and a location to get your average equivalent full sun hours. You may also hear the term Peak Hours. These two descriptions are essentially calculations that give you the effective expected output for your panels.
Example: I have 15kW of panels. In December my Peak Hours would be 3. So under ideal conditions with a south facing array at the perfect panel angle I could produce 45kWh of power. This never happens, so be aware of that.
Here is a simple calculator that tells you peak hours by zip code. Please keep in mind to get this power you would need panels adjusted monthly or on trackers and 100% clear skies all the time. 90% of sifting through the solar journey is finding your way through the bullshit of the "ideal case".
Check Peak Sun Hours by Zip Code, City or State
Use our free tool to calculate the average solar/sun hours that your area receives every month. You can search by zip code or city or state or even street address
I'm thinking Solar wouldn't work for us. We're in Sandwich not far from the Ocean and most mornings we are socked in with Fog. That will chew up a good amount of sunlight time not getting to the panels.
bottle-cap
NES Member
Beware. Some firms will place a lien on your house since their hardware is on your roof. If they go out of business, sell your system, or change names, it can be difficult to clear the lien and sell your house down the road.
Also, you want a net meter installed so you can track what’s being produced.
Most inverters like SolarEdge have apps so you can see in real time your output and status of each panel and inverter.
Also, you want a net meter installed so you can track what’s being produced.
Most inverters like SolarEdge have apps so you can see in real time your output and status of each panel and inverter.
pastera
NES Member
Early morning doesn't buy you much power - you want the sun perpendicular to the panel face.
My 45°roof us tuned for spring/fall but still produces well in the winter.
As the pitch gets lower the system produces better in the summer.
With an E/W roof half of the array is shaded by the roof in the morning and the other half at night. The steeper the pitch the more of the day the shading occurs.
BroncoAZ
NES Member
Mine face more southwest than directly south, so production ramps up late morning and peak are in the afternoon. I’m in Orleans, also not far from the water. Here are a couple of days of production I found notable. Production peaked with my best day of the year being just over 84kWh in April. Lots of days in the 70-80 kWh range through the summer. I expect November to January to peak under 50 kWh, but my typical house usage is 15-20kWh in the winter. Efficiency on the Tesla will drop in winter, so we may be burning some credits.
My best day from February.
A good day from April with car charging mid day.
You should see, on average, the best solar days in April and October because of the temperature of the panels. The colder the panel is, the more efficient it is. Summer output usually dips slightly over late spring because once you get above 70F the panel temp at midday really starts to climb, hurting the efficiency.
In summer voltage per panel drops and in winter it rises (over the sticker standard output). You actually have to use deep winter temps to limit the total voltage of your strings because even though you make less power in winter, the peak midday power can exceed your inverter input max voltage if not designed properly.
A lot of the difference between low end and high end panels when you shop is the temp sensitivity. In general the high proce you pay, the more temp stable the panels get. I opted for Hyundai 390W panels when I built my system. If I built it today I would buy 500W+ bifacials. The prices have come way down and winter production with snow cover would be excellent in the NE.
In summer voltage per panel drops and in winter it rises (over the sticker standard output). You actually have to use deep winter temps to limit the total voltage of your strings because even though you make less power in winter, the peak midday power can exceed your inverter input max voltage if not designed properly.
A lot of the difference between low end and high end panels when you shop is the temp sensitivity. In general the high proce you pay, the more temp stable the panels get. I opted for Hyundai 390W panels when I built my system. If I built it today I would buy 500W+ bifacials. The prices have come way down and winter production with snow cover would be excellent in the NE.
tokenringhawk
NES Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2023
- Messages
- 17
- Likes
- 14
I now have zero for electrical bills and more than $2,000.00+ credit
LT5
NES Member
What/who did you go with?
I’m still on the fence but, I just did the math for last year and our average electric bill was 334.00 a month.
Rockrivr1
NES Member
Yes, that is correct. It’s the main reason we were looking at buying a system instead of leasing one.
