The Conference Committee has sent official language out - h.4885

Goliathan said:
Day and the antis are already claiming that they're doing "the will of the people." Remember the "listening" tour? Losing a ballot initiative won't have any material effect on the law or the Constitutional challenges to it.
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I understand losing a ballot measure won't have any effect on the law or challenges, nor would winning it (gay marriage lost the ballot vote).

To me, it is a waste of time and it gives them more PR to go against the 2A.
 
Horatio Alger Jr said:
To me, it is a waste of time and it gives them more PR to go against the 2A.
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Certainly your right to see it that way if you choose. I don't personally spend much bandwidth worrying about what the antis think of themselves or whatever PR ammo they think they may have gained.

It's hard to imagine a potential failed ballot question "emboldening" them more than they already are. Or, put another way: NOT fighting back isn't likely to induce them to stop attacking us.
 
Goliathan said:
Certainly your right to see it that way if you choose. I don't personally spend much bandwidth worrying about what the antis think of themselves or whatever PR ammo they think they may have gained.

It's hard to imagine a potential failed ballot question "emboldening" them more than they already are.
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How about it's a complete wast of f***ing money that could be used for something useful....like going as far as we need to in court.

How much does an initiative petition drive cost

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics
ballotpedia.org ballotpedia.org
 
VTski4x4 said:
How about it's a complete wast of f***ing money that could be used for something useful....like going as far as we need to in court.

How much does an initiative petition drive cost

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics
ballotpedia.org ballotpedia.org
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Does this mean you're willing to get involved now? The 2A community here could use your help.

Do you suppose that the potential cost of a petition drive hasn't been considered, or that this is the only course of action being taken?
 
no down side, "what the voters want" in MA is not a relevant argument on a US constitutional issue. The reason we have a republic and a constitution is to limit the power of the Gov AND protect the minority from the majority (mob rule). If the people want to change the constitution, there is a way to do that, but it takes more than MA.
 
42! said:
no down side, "what the voters want" in MA is not a relevant argument on a US constitutional issue. The reason we have a republic and a constitution is to limit the power of the Gov AND protect the minority from the majority (mob rule). If the people want to change the constitution, there is a way to do that, but it takes more than MA.
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Blowing millions of dollars to *maybe* get a delay at best is a huge downside. Millions of dollars that could be used for years of litigation. You know if FPC wins the Maryland AWB case we are still going to be fighting parts of this bill for years to come.
 
42! said:
no down side, "what the voters want" in MA is not a relevant argument on a US constitutional issue. The reason we have a republic and a constitution is to limit the power of the Gov AND protect the minority from the majority (mob rule). If the people want to change the constitution, there is a way to do that, but it takes more than MA.
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I’m thinking this new law getting sued line by line is better than it being repealed.

The old laws sucked less than this one. But I think we will get more freedom if we hit them one by one.
 
VTski4x4 said:
Blowing millions of dollars to *maybe* get a delay at best is a huge downside. Millions of dollars that could be used for years of litigation. You know if FPC wins the Maryland AWB case we are still going to be fighting parts of this bill for years to come.
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Fist off, this isn't going to be millions of dollars, not even thousands. It's signatures an filing, you don't even have to have lawyers. And the delay is pretty much automatic if you get enough signatures.

As for winning, I don't think it will, but the last time a gun control law got brought up in a refereundum vote it did get shot down, and by more than 2:1. So there is some history showing the voters do know what going too far is.

Massachusetts Question 5, Prohibition on Handguns Initiative (1976)

And this isn't litigation so it fits in GOAL's area of legislation.
 
novo said:
Hey guys is the SIG spear lt 7.62 ok to buy after 8/1. As long as it was with a dealer or LTC holder before 8/1?
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Ask your dealer he has the ultimate say if he’ll transfer it as far as it being legal I wouldn’t worry about it.
 
In my opinion, whatever that’s worth…you still have to have it massified.. if you don’t know what that is read about it.
 
Rockrivr1 said:
Was at Cape Cod Gun Works yesterday and they are completely sold out. They had two full pallets of Spears that sold out in less then a week. When doing a transfer the worker we were using indicated that one guy bought 15 a $2800 a piece. Holy credit card beating.
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15 at 2800 each......damn I wish I had that kind of coin.
 
GOAL said:
Today we filed papers with the Elections Division to get a ballot question to repeal Chapter 135 going. It's one of several moves being made, in concert with legislative and legal efforts.

Please stay tuned for information on where and how to sign. We are going to need all hands on deck for these multiple fights.
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You can't possibly think this will work out in our favor? It will just feed their narrative that most people here want gun control.
 
Goliathan said:
The bill is signed, so the damage that can be done is already done. If a ballot question to repeal the bill fails, nothing changes from the current state.

On the other hand there are tactical benefits in doing this kind of thing, especially along with other moves being made.
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It doesn't really take a huge amount of research to find but it's not for the google newbie either.
If the repeal is sought on an emergency law or on a law whose suspension is not requested by the petitioners, the number of certified signatures required is 1.5% of the total vote cast for Governor (excluding blanks) at the last state election. This figure is37,287 until the results of the 2026 state election are certified by the Governor’s Council; no more than one-fourth of these certified signatures may come from any one county, which is9,321.If the original petition filed by ten registered voters requests suspension in writing, the law will be suspended from taking effect when the referendum petition is filed. (Again, this does not apply to emergency laws.) The number of signatures required to suspend the law upon filing of the petition is 2% of the total vote cast for Governor (excluding blanks) at the last state election. This figure is 49,716 until the results of the 2026 state election are certified by the Governor’s Council; no more than one-fourth of these certified signatures may come from any one county, which is 12,429.
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However, since this is bottom of the barrel in the weeds knowledge GOAL should have explained the damn process and linked to the the Mass Sec. of State site
 

Attachments

42! said:
Fist off, this isn't going to be millions of dollars, not even thousands. It's signatures an filing, you don't even have to have lawyers. And the delay is pretty much automatic if you get enough signatures.

As for winning, I don't think it will, but the last time a gun control law got brought up in a refereundum vote it did get shot down, and by more than 2:1. So there is some history showing the voters do know what going too far is.

Massachusetts Question 5, Prohibition on Handguns Initiative (1976)

And this isn't litigation so it fits in GOAL's area of legislation.
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Do you honestly think any of the crap going on now would have passed muster 48 years ago?
 
btnh6668 said:
You can't possibly think this will work out in our favor? It will just feed their narrative that most people here want gun control.
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GOAL was operating under the belief that SCOTUS is going to cure a large part of this once the Illinois or Maryland AW cases in the 4th and 7th were decided. And the 4th just dropped such a beautiful blessing of a gift in our lap.
I was against this as I agree that the actual ballot question will fail - however, if we can get the certified signatures that will push the effective date of 4885 out giving people some time.

Now that the 4th essentially had a complete mental breakdown and put their dirty laundry out for everyone to read, we should see a resolution on the ASF issue next session.
I you haven't read the 4th's opinion - do so, and skip to footnote 2 in the dissent to start. That short paragraph will get you angry enough to read the majority's bloviating BS.

I posted a PDF with my comments for the majority holding (it was my 1st reading so the comments are pretty raw and I don't have any supporting citations in them)
The difference between the majority and dissent will show plainly what is 90% likely to happen at SCOTUS (Read the dissent then read Bruen, Heller or McDonald and see the similarities in style and content)
 
Horatio Alger Jr said:
I understand losing a ballot measure won't have any effect on the law or challenges, nor would winning it (gay marriage lost the ballot vote).

To me, it is a waste of time and it gives them more PR to go against the 2A.
Click to expand...
The idea isn't to win the measure - just getting the required signature count stalls enactment.

We know we won't win - the issue is delaying the worst so that dealers can stay in business and we don't have to damage our PMFs by scratching government propaganda into them.
Bianchi v Brown is going to SCOTUS and will get thoroughly trounced but not in time for our dealers to survive.
 
HARRYM said:
15 at 2800 each......damn I wish I had that kind of coin.
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If you believe you will flip them for 2x in the near future, that's not a bad investment.
That's $45k after tax - not hard to pull out as a loan against your 401k or home equity

Flip four of them a year for 4k+ each for the next few years and profit nicely.
Or have SCOTUS overturn Bianchi v Brown and now you have 15 used massified guns that are worth 1/3 of what you paid.
 
42! said:
Fist off, this isn't going to be millions of dollars, not even thousands. It's signatures an filing, you don't even have to have lawyers. And the delay is pretty much automatic if you get enough signatures.

As for winning, I don't think it will, but the last time a gun control law got brought up in a refereundum vote it did get shot down, and by more than 2:1. So there is some history showing the voters do know what going too far is.

Massachusetts Question 5, Prohibition on Handguns Initiative (1976)

And this isn't litigation so it fits in GOAL's area of legislation.
Click to expand...

Comparing this new law to that one is almost apples to oranges.

Not to mention that one was almost 50 years ago and back then even the liberals weren't as gun control crazy as they are now. People in general were all more moderate.

That was a complete ban on handguns and confiscation of them. People read that and knew it was too far.
This one is so convoluted, and the media is just spinning it as a ban on ghost guns and "weapons of war" that the general public won't blink and eye agreeing with what mass media is feeding them.
 
LuvDog said:
Comparing this new law to that one is almost apples to oranges.

Not to mention that one was almost 50 years ago and back then even the liberals weren't as gun control crazy as they are now. People in general were all more moderate.

That was a complete ban on handguns and confiscation of them. People read that and knew it was too far.
This one is so convoluted, and the media is just spinning it as a ban on ghost guns and "weapons of war" that the general public won't blink and eye agreeing with what mass media is feeding them.
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The "millionaire's tax" only passed at 52% while the legislature voted 90% for it. So, I read that as many people who are voting D in MA aren't that liberal.

I know the subject is different, but we know that Democrats always want to take as much as possible to give away to others, but the average D voter doesn't want that. Even for people who may never be hit by this tax, even they thought it was not the right thing to do. Is that because people know that eventually it will trickle down to them? Maybe.

I'll sign the petition even if I know it is futile. Heck, I don't think I've voted for a winner in a race in MA in 10+ years, so what's another one?
 
LuvDog said:
Comparing this new law to that one is almost apples to oranges.

Not to mention that one was almost 50 years ago and back then even the liberals weren't as gun control crazy as they are now. People in general were all more moderate.

That was a complete ban on handguns and confiscation of them. People read that and knew it was too far.
This one is so convoluted, and the media is just spinning it as a ban on ghost guns and "weapons of war" that the general public won't blink and eye agreeing with what mass media is feeding them.
Click to expand...
That was a big deal then, and this is a big deal now, the analogy is fitting.
Yes, this one is very confusing. That can work in our favor. They have to publish the law as written, anyone who reads it, admittedly not all will, will be confused. That helps us.

But the point you ignored was I DON'T THINK THE VOTE WILL WIN. This is a delaying action to protect gun owners and more importantly, gun shops. They need to stay in business or the law eventually being overturned in the courts means little.

It's inexpensive, easy, and does no harm. And it just may keep your LGS in business for a little while longer.
 
42! said:
That was a big deal then, and this is a big deal now, the analogy is fitting.
Yes, this one is very confusing. That can work in our favor. They have to publish the law as written, anyone who reads it, admittedly not all will, will be confused. That helps us.

But the point you ignored was I DON'T THINK THE VOTE WILL WIN. This is a delaying action to protect gun owners and more importantly, gun shops. They need to stay in business or the law eventually being overturned in the courts means little.

It's inexpensive, easy, and does no harm. And it just may keep your LGS in business for a little while longer.
Click to expand...

I understand that you said you don't think it will win, but you also said there is some history showing the voters do know what going too far.

My point was that this time the voters probably will not know that this is going to far.
 
btnh6668 said:
You can't possibly think this will work out in our favor? It will just feed their narrative that most people here want gun control.
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The reason for this is because the people in this state have been brainwashed for years that more gun control equals taking the guns out of criminals hands. This makes them feel safer because this is what they have been bamboozled into thinking for years. They now live in this false beleife and there is no way to change there thinking.
 
Warm_Garand said:
Oh. I did answer him. I wrote:

lol. What the f*** are you talking about? Apparently you have NO idea what I am even talking about.

Driving around with loaded, unsecured mags is "standing up for your rights"?


If you think that behaving in passive-aggressive ways is "resistance" then you have no idea what actual resistance even is.

If you think that getting arrested for breaking a law is somehow "resisting" that law, then I don't know what to tell you.

I've noticed that you guys seem to do a lot of projection and make a lot of assumptions about other people's character and personal bravery. I flew down to Lobby Day to stand with the Virginians. That's all I'm going to say on the topic.
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For me, I just stopped giving a shit more and more over time...I didn't put much thought into it really.

you know that boiling frog and all? it works both ways.
 
Last edited:
A poem, courtesy of Claude.AI


Liberty's steel, a right to bear
Now burdened by laws beyond compare
Our freedoms erode with each new rule
As bureaucrats treat us like fools

Training required, papers to file
Just to exercise rights all the while
Background checks delve deep into lives
Privacy fades as Big Brother thrives

Weapons restricted, magazines too
Rights infringed for me and for you
"Red flags" wave on mere suspicion
Due process fades from our tradition

Locked away, our tools of defense
When seconds count, it makes no sense
Ghost gun bans, a craftsman's skill denied
Our right to create cast aside

A fundamental right under attack
We stand our ground, we won't step back
For in these times of uncertainty
Our arms ensure our liberty
 

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