You really think HK is that good?
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What’s wrong with DA/SA handguns?
- Thread starter Point&Shoot
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DarthRevan
NES Member
Hmm… my 92 Vertec begs to differ.
DarthRevan
NES Member
Rocky Mosasaurus
NES Member
I’m at that point with my HK45; mainly, because I suck balls with it on paper and am even worse on steel. I’m 100s of rounds down range and my mechanics are off with it. To the trading block it goes.
Varmint
NES Member
They have beautiful finishes. And their ads are pretty cool.
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No you dont...they friggin suck
Weird sight hold...super jumpy
Trust me dont waste your time
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The 220 10mill is a beast
Varmint
NES Member
It's my last HK, after selling my P30, USPc and HK45c (traded it to my brother). And in Mass, 10 rounds of .45 fills the hand better than 10 rounds of 9mm.
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I thought the hk lem setup really made the hammer hard to get at... i could be wrong but i thought there was some configuration that removed the thumb spur
safetyfirst2125
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I have the p229. It’s silky smooth to shoot. If you don’t have other sigs just remember it’s combat hold site picture (front dot over POI) or you’ll be shooting low every time
Rocky Mosasaurus
NES Member
This is true, yes, but my mechanics with it are simply sub-par, even with practice it hasn't been great fit. It's like if Harry Potter kept picking up the same wand and it was firing pixie dust sideways instead of glorious beams of less-than-lethal energy at his foes. For that reason, I need to move on.
The accuracy was fine. The SA trigger was meh. The DA trigger was worse than horrible. The paddle magazine release is downright stupid. The slide is egregiously large. Overall, the USPc was huge compared to a Glock 19. Magazine prices were stupid. Put that all together and, IMO, it isn’t good enough to be called “meh”.
Oh yeah. Their ads were epic, but perhaps not in the way HK intended.
H&K and Backwards Bullets: The Real Story
It is no secret that I am an unrepentant H&K-aholic.Over the years I have collected just about every one of their roller locked long guns, a ton of their pistols dating back to the HK4 and VP70z, and even a few modern implements that required quite a bit of effort to get ahold of.That being...
www.thefirearmblog.com
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I am not a fan of DA/SA handguns. And this is a question that new shooters ask me about pretty often at my club.
But before I discuss the problems, let me start with the positives. DA/SA was the preferred action for service pistols for decades, and there are many top quality DA/SA pistols in circulation. Anyone who has one of these pistols, and is happy with it, has no need to upgrade. These are reliable, effective, and useful pistols if you like them.
But the issue with these pistols is the heavy first trigger pull, and also the changing trigger pull. For people who are not experienced with these pistols, I say that it is important to focus on learning to draw and double tap. And with a DA/SA pistol, you should set up two targets and get good at drawing and double tapping them both. This is a pretty normal drill, but with DA/SA it makes you really notice the heavy first shot trigger pull.
Some experienced shooters can double tap a DA/SA pistol with speed and control, but it is a hard drill. Less experienced shooters usually hate this drill. And I tell them that is fine, since they really have no reason to work on this skill. Law enforcement and military have stopped practicing with different trigger pulls, and no one who finds it challenging really needs to spend time on it. Choose any modern pistol and move on.
Some people will point out that controlling the two trigger pulls is just a matter of training. And while this is true, it is also critically wrong. Yes, training with the DA/SA trigger will eventually lead to mastery. But training time is the single most valuable resource that humans have. No matter how rich you are, training time is still limited. And spending training time on less useful skills will always hurt progress on more important stuff.
The single most important aspect of advancing any skill is to plan training time wisely.
Lots of people are always looking for new gear, and spending money on new stuff. The idea is always that spending money will improve performance, but usually this does not work out too well. DA/SA pistols are a case where different equipment actually will improve performance for many people, so if people are not already skilled with these pistols, I do not recommend them.
But before I discuss the problems, let me start with the positives. DA/SA was the preferred action for service pistols for decades, and there are many top quality DA/SA pistols in circulation. Anyone who has one of these pistols, and is happy with it, has no need to upgrade. These are reliable, effective, and useful pistols if you like them.
But the issue with these pistols is the heavy first trigger pull, and also the changing trigger pull. For people who are not experienced with these pistols, I say that it is important to focus on learning to draw and double tap. And with a DA/SA pistol, you should set up two targets and get good at drawing and double tapping them both. This is a pretty normal drill, but with DA/SA it makes you really notice the heavy first shot trigger pull.
Some experienced shooters can double tap a DA/SA pistol with speed and control, but it is a hard drill. Less experienced shooters usually hate this drill. And I tell them that is fine, since they really have no reason to work on this skill. Law enforcement and military have stopped practicing with different trigger pulls, and no one who finds it challenging really needs to spend time on it. Choose any modern pistol and move on.
Some people will point out that controlling the two trigger pulls is just a matter of training. And while this is true, it is also critically wrong. Yes, training with the DA/SA trigger will eventually lead to mastery. But training time is the single most valuable resource that humans have. No matter how rich you are, training time is still limited. And spending training time on less useful skills will always hurt progress on more important stuff.
The single most important aspect of advancing any skill is to plan training time wisely.
Lots of people are always looking for new gear, and spending money on new stuff. The idea is always that spending money will improve performance, but usually this does not work out too well. DA/SA pistols are a case where different equipment actually will improve performance for many people, so if people are not already skilled with these pistols, I do not recommend them.
With a good DA trigger, it isn’t hard at all. My Shadow 2 is quite easy to draw, fire the first shot DA snd the second shot SA.
The problem is that most DA/SA guns come from the factory with a 10+ lb DA trigger.
With a good trigger, you don’t have to be some ninja and spend months training to master it. My Shadow 2 is so, so much easier to shoot accurately than a Glock with a - connector.
The problem is that most DA/SA guns come from the factory with a 10+ lb DA trigger.
With a good trigger, you don’t have to be some ninja and spend months training to master it. My Shadow 2 is so, so much easier to shoot accurately than a Glock with a - connector.
Was it reliable…yes
Was it accurate…as good as I am
Was it bulky ..yes
Was trigger bad…not horrendously to the point I couldn’t shoot it
It’s the definition of meh, it works but…
Now CZs I have fit like it was made for my hand and good trigger with 10$ of springs. Shooting on easy mode
Golddiggie
NES Member
I hope you're not surprised. You're not THAT new here after all.
MaroonedinMA
NES Member
So...you're not interested in buying my HK45?
Seriously. Every HK I've bought, I've sold or tried to sell in the first year. They simply refuse to make decent triggers. What is that all about?
On the USPc, the trigger bars were all floppy stamped steel parts. It’s not easy to get a good trigger with that kind of construction. But those stamped parts sure are cheap to manufacture.
Point&Shoot
NES Member
I put a whole bunch of rounds both reloads and factory down range with the P229 over the last couple of days and right out of the box its clear I need to work on my DA shots. My double action shots willl take some work but SA mode is sweet. Most of my shooting is at five to twenty yards mostly because I’ve been told at 20yards you need to run away and not engage the target or your legal troubles (and there will be) will grow. I’m also not a stellar marksman so 20 yards is where my groups are tight. The groups open right up. It’s my 65 yo eyes that are the issue which I hope a good red dot will help alleviate a bit. The P229 is one hell of a chunk of steel and it if I had a designated pistol whipping gun this would be it. I did try a holster that fit on a temp basis but it pulled my pants down to my knees. I’d need suspenders. I don’t think I’ll be carrying the two pound P229 in my shorts. When I picked up the Legion I ALSO grabbed a P265 XL that I haven’t even shot yet but if it works out I’ll put it in my CC rotation. Oh well …So much for the ball and chains new granite counters. I did realize I also own a 92FS Inox gathering dust because it felt awkward and I didn’t take the time to develop solid muscle memory which was good on the striker fired pistols and even better with 1911s.
It’s surprising how well I shoot 1911s. IDK why I shoot them well and don’t understand how it meets the MA 10lb trigger pull requirements but the bullet is gone before you can say recoil.
LOTS OF GOOD INFO GUYS. I can’t address many comments because they’re a tad out of my knowledge base but I’m digesting them. THIS is the place to get opinions and suggestions simply because of such broad bases of knowledge. These 229 and 265XL are my first sigs . Are they always tighter than a frogs butt when new? Jinkies!
I think the 229 will get a red dot and I’ll use it to illustrate how inconsistent my shooting is and when I sort the red dots out I’ll put one on my G34 when the slide returns from milling.
Note: There is absolutely nothing wrong with heavy set firearms or heavy set woman. They all need loving and they earn it. I figure pretty much all of us dogs have mingled with heavy set woman and firearms and many of those who deny they have might just not be telling the truth. Fat bottomed girls make the rocking world go round.
Parentheses?? I’m lucky I have spell checks
Because the AG’s regulations effectively say you don’t need a 10 lb trigger if the gun has a manual safety. So it is no mystery.
Rocky Mosasaurus
NES Member
“Yes,” to mingling with both, and emphatically “YES”, to being nostalgic and missing both.
If you want to rehome that Beretta let me know! I traded mine for a mouse gun (P938) and wish I had kept the tanker! Oh well!
There is a difference between being on the roster and meeting the AGs handgun safety regulations.
See 940 CMR 16.05 paragraph (2):
The multiple motions to fire language is what allows a gun with a light trigger and manual safety like a 1911 to be in accordance with the AG’s handgun regulations.
Full text here: Section 16.05 - Sale of Handguns Without Childproofing, 940 CMR, § 16.05 | Casetext Search + Citator
Agnotology
NES Member
Not sure if I'd carry da/sa. Does engaging the safety de cock them 100% of the time, or only certain guns? I'd try to incorporate the thumb action of cooking into my draw to have it done as I bring it up to target.
Prior to your comment, I thought you could have the hammer back, safety on to get SA trigger pulls from the first shot.
Please remove my ignorance, if any.
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I realize it is off topic for this thread, but I disagree with this statement enough that I will make a post about it.
I strongly believe that the correct defensive philosophy is: "if the bad guy has a firearm, then he determines the time, place, and distance of the encounter."
If he has a long gun, then he really totally controls all of these factors. And if he has some other distance weapon, like a bow, then he may still fully get to choose the distance. The important factor here is not distance, it is control. Imagining we control things that we don't can accidentally create an unprepared mindset.
Sorry if this comes off over critical, I really don't mean it that way. But I do believe thinking carefully about these issues is important.
Being a good guy is hard. Our only advantages are training, preparation, and gear. Often we can be better than the bad guys in these areas, and sometimes nothing goes our way. Keep a clear head and use what you've got is really all you can do.
Note that I do not disagree with the distances stated for pistol training. Working from five to twenty yards is usually the best training and covers that vast majority of real world situations. And as I stated in a previous post, good use of training time is important.
As an aside, armed civilians will also be well served by planning to break contact if there is any way to do so safely. This is true regardless of distance.
Different DA/SA guns operate in different ways.
SIG doesn’t have a manual safety on most (all?) of their DA/SA guns, just a decocker.
The Beretta 92F has a safety decocker where decocking also engages the safety, but you can retrofit that to be a 92G with just a decocker and no manual safety.
The CZ-75 line has no decocker, so you manually decock. It does have a manual safety, which I ignore. CZ has other models with decockers.
The HK USP line has an integrated safety decocker. Decocking applies the safety.
No. Don’t do that. You will still be adding 1/2 second to your first shot. And you are compromising your grip and adding a chance of fumbling the cocking and/or dropping the gun. Try to draw quickly with an empty gun. Do it with or without cocking. Do it with a shot timer and you will see just how much it slows you down.
If you are going to carry a DA/SA gun hammer down, then learn to shoot the DA first shot or carry a different gun. Full stop.
Years back, one year that I competed in IDPA I used my K-frame revolver. On one stage we had clay targets at a distance of maybe 20’. Like a moron, I decided to thumb cock and shoot single action at those targets. That was a huge mistake. It cost me a ton of time. I remember how glacially slow it felt when I shot that stage. I should have just rolled through the DA trigger and it would have saved me a ton of time.
If you ever have to use your gun to defend yourself, fractions of a second count and you have no time to cock the hammer.
That depends on the gun. But if you are going to carry cocked and locked, why aren’t you getting a single action only gun in the first place?
Compared to a USPc, a 4” 1911 like a Kimber Compact has the same capacity, is significantly smaller, and has an awesome trigger.
What’s wrong with DA/SA handguns?
Absolutely nothing. Sig DA/SA triggers are wonderful, especially the short reset version if you are into that. 1911 triggers are also good and the best of them have no comparison. All striker fired triggers suck. Some of them very little, but they still suck. Glocks make great utility guns but the triggers are sh!t- all of them. Anyone who thinks they are any better than 'tolerable' has not shot a good DA/SA nor SA.
If you are a DA/SA or SA shooter and want to get a feel if striker fired triggers are for you, especially Glocks? If you can't try a buddy's gun and don't want to spend a lot of money to check one out just get a mouse trap and some peanut butter for bait. Once you have yourself a fresh, dearly departed mouse drop it on the floor and take your shoes and socks off. Step on the mouse gradually until you reach full body weight. That squish-squish-squish-crunch-pop sensation is exactly like pulling a striker fired trigger, though I think the mouse will break more consistently.
