Massachusetts Bill HD.4420 "An act to modernize gun Laws"

[SIGNES]

From the outside looking in… I think a lot of you are overlooking a valuable part of Signes being part of the conversation. Most of you are calling him names and claiming he’s a troll.. which may be the case, but I can’t say for certain that he is.
What I CAN say for certain is that, regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with any of his viewpoints, him playing devils advocate is a good thought exercise for all of us. Living in an echo chamber and surrounding yourself only with like-minded people makes you a weak arguer over time.

Having someone who disagrees with you, either entirely or just on some things, is an excellent way to poke holes in each others arguments.. and that allows both parties to fix and therefore strengthen their arguments.

I’ve been reading a lot of what the regulars here have been posting, and one thing has dawned on me that so many of you gloss over:

1.) “going green” does not make you educated.

2.) having been “using firearms for the last 40+ years” does not make you educated.

The amount of arrogance in this thread is absolutely mind boggling. Some of it might be good-natured inside jokes, some of it might be sheer ignorance. But for SURE it exemplifies how many people here are closed minded and are in no way shape or form good arguers. It’s pretty clear how few of you have actual experience inside a court room, how few of you have actual experience in politics, and how few of you are really even give off a vibe that you care about anything except yourself.

There’s a very evident amount of tribalism in this thread. It’s not welcoming of new members, it’s doesn’t increase knowledge (I’d even argue it lessens knowledge and muddies the waters), and it certainly doesn’t help the image of the 2A community. If I was to try and imagine myself as a liberal looking at this thread, I could somewhat understand some of the stereotypes that have been associated with us.

Do better. All of you. A lot of you are claiming to have decades of experience in shooting sports, so my assumption is that the median age of this thread is in the upper 40s and 50’s, but reading this thread is like listening to a bunch of pubescent school girls trying to gang up against the new, hot girl who has the attention of the popular jock. Honestly grow up.

Not that I can make anyone believe me but.. no. I promise, again, that I am neither troll* nor 'on the payroll shill'. I'm in the demographic you describe. Been shooting for >40 years. Shoot multiple times a month now and I want to keep my rights to do that, and carry and add to my collection and my skills including with timer and optics in the mix just like those cool kids on the YouToobs. ,

Am I to the left of Ted Nugent? Yep. Was I as good a guitar player back in the day? Maybe close but no.

Am I to the right of AOC and Maura $%^& yeah I am!

Do I think organizations like Pink Pistols and NAAGA are good for all of us keeping our rights? Absolutely! We need to make more friends.

Do I think to keep our rights we should maybe marginalize the voices that make those groups feel unwelcome, yep! Sure do because friends like those don't help.

The undercurrent of racism and homophobia in some of these arguments and most of the meme insults is just sad. Sad because it's ignorant. Sad because it's so revealing about the character of the posters and, worst of all, sad because it fuels the antis arguments.

Whether folks believe it or not, I want and am proposing strategies that I have decades of experience to tell me are effective, to keep and un#$%^& our 2A rights in MA to the maximum extent possible in the current political climate, preserve them if it swings further left, and be a foundation to expand them if the representation gets more balanced.

I am truly horrified by the approaches I see taken here like coming out and telling your rep you won't comply because those are exactly the kinds of things the anti's very effectively (and in some ways legitimately) use against us. Randy Weaver did the cause no favors. Sorry.

* On trolling: Some of the insults are just so amateurish I sometimes can't help but toss in a zinger in response to the schoolyard potshotsnow and again that generally goes right of the head of the target . So, yeah, on that front, maybe not keeping 100% to my own ideals of adult discourse.. but come on.. sometimes they make it so easy and nobody's perfect.

 

[M60]

From the outside looking in… I think a lot of you are overlooking a valuable part of Signes being part of the conversation. Most of you are calling him names and claiming he’s a troll.. which may be the case, but I can’t say for certain that he is.
What I CAN say for certain is that, regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with any of his viewpoints, him playing devils advocate is a good thought exercise for all of us. Living in an echo chamber and surrounding yourself only with like-minded people makes you a weak arguer over time.

Having someone who disagrees with you, either entirely or just on some things, is an excellent way to poke holes in each others arguments.. and that allows both parties to fix and therefore strengthen their arguments.

I’ve been reading a lot of what the regulars here have been posting, and one thing has dawned on me that so many of you gloss over:

1.) “going green” does not make you educated.

2.) having been “using firearms for the last 40+ years” does not make you educated.

The amount of arrogance in this thread is absolutely mind boggling. Some of it might be good-natured inside jokes, some of it might be sheer ignorance. But for SURE it exemplifies how many people here are closed minded and are in no way shape or form good arguers. It’s pretty clear how few of you have actual experience inside a court room, how few of you have actual experience in politics, and how few of you are really even give off a vibe that you care about anything except yourself.

There’s a very evident amount of tribalism in this thread. It’s not welcoming of new members, it’s doesn’t increase knowledge (I’d even argue it lessens knowledge and muddies the waters), and it certainly doesn’t help the image of the 2A community. If I was to try and imagine myself as a liberal looking at this thread, I could somewhat understand some of the stereotypes that have been associated with us.

Do better. All of you. A lot of you are claiming to have decades of experience in shooting sports, so my assumption is that the median age of this thread is in the upper 40s and 50’s, but reading this thread is like listening to a bunch of pubescent school girls trying to gang up against the new, hot girl who has the attention of the popular jock. Honestly grow up.

 

[M60]

From the outside looking in… I think a lot of you are overlooking a valuable part of Signes being part of the conversation. Most of you are calling him names and claiming he’s a troll.. which may be the case, but I can’t say for certain that he is.
What I CAN say for certain is that, regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with any of his viewpoints, him playing devils advocate is a good thought exercise for all of us. Living in an echo chamber and surrounding yourself only with like-minded people makes you a weak arguer over time.

Having someone who disagrees with you, either entirely or just on some things, is an excellent way to poke holes in each others arguments.. and that allows both parties to fix and therefore strengthen their arguments.

I’ve been reading a lot of what the regulars here have been posting, and one thing has dawned on me that so many of you gloss over:

1.) “going green” does not make you educated.

2.) having been “using firearms for the last 40+ years” does not make you educated.

The amount of arrogance in this thread is absolutely mind boggling. Some of it might be good-natured inside jokes, some of it might be sheer ignorance. But for SURE it exemplifies how many people here are closed minded and are in no way shape or form good arguers. It’s pretty clear how few of you have actual experience inside a court room, how few of you have actual experience in politics, and how few of you are really even give off a vibe that you care about anything except yourself.

There’s a very evident amount of tribalism in this thread. It’s not welcoming of new members, it’s doesn’t increase knowledge (I’d even argue it lessens knowledge and muddies the waters), and it certainly doesn’t help the image of the 2A community. If I was to try and imagine myself as a liberal looking at this thread, I could somewhat understand some of the stereotypes that have been associated with us.

Do better. All of you. A lot of you are claiming to have decades of experience in shooting sports, so my assumption is that the median age of this thread is in the upper 40s and 50’s, but reading this thread is like listening to a bunch of pubescent school girls trying to gang up against the new, hot girl who has the attention of the popular jock. Honestly grow up.

Another post by another newbie instructing us all on what to do because he/she really knows best.

 

[SIGNES]

No one is running for office that cares is my take away. It's easier to sit here on the keyboard and complain than give up a nice comfy life for what exactly?

There's a continuum. Would it be great if you (or I) had the time/stamina to run? Yep. Are we gonna? Nope. But we can toss a few bucks to whoever runs against Day. We can put a yard sign out for whoever runs against him. There's a lot of productive between sit at our keyboards and running ourselves. A lot of us got on the phone and hand wrote emails and real letters to our reps. That absolutely helped and, we're gonna need a lot more come the fall.

 

[SIGNES]

D candidate
As a libertarian there are several degrees of overlap on social issues so I would be inclined to vote that way even though it would tick me off that government will continue to grow unabated.

R candidate
Same thing as the D, so I would be inclined to vote that way

But what you just described is fictional. No conservative would get nominated that way and any liberal who made it that far wouldn't get the free Bloomberg bucks.

I learned my lesson with Baker when he was all 'rah rah i support your 2A rights' the next election cycle he took Bloomberg money.

I don't care about far left causes. I would just like to see the democrats remove themselves from Michael Bloombergs dick so that we can have productive conversations. They're too busy looking for quick and easy money. But I fear that in 2023 this is now impossible because of the way in which the parties are funded. So we're screwed no matter which way the pendulum swings.

Citizens United v. FEC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you Scalia, Alito and Thomas.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Whether folks believe it or not, I want and am proposing strategies that I have decades of experience to tell me are effective

at increasing restrictions.

 

[whatluck]

I think the opponents are at the least clueless, sometimes malicious and usually captured.
I think (know) the system is unfair.

What those who find me so objectionable aren't getting is it's precisely because of those things, proactively engaging to let them declare victory George Bush style, while we preserve our rights as best we can is the only option.

"You can't negotiate with terrorists" is absolutely valid for everyone who isn't the person actually bound, gagged, on their knees moments from decapitation. Once you're the captive, (we, licensed gun owners) you damned skippy realize you need to negotiate.

When I first unlurked and started posting after reading the boards for a long time, I said this, got flamed Everybody said 'it's all going to get better after Bruen' but...Then 4420. Washington's B.S. and all sorts of other "Bruen Backlash" legislation started happening. I am not here to be 'right'. I can be right with peace and quiet. I'm here trying to get at least some of the folks here to consider working with GOAL to make legislation we can gag on, but not choke and die from.

Then when you've held some ground, you work with Comm2A, GOA etc. to sue to undo even that.

Youre a traitor

 

[M60]

There's a continuum. Would it be great if you (or I) had the time/stamina to run? Yep. Are we gonna? Nope. But we can toss a few bucks to whoever runs against Day. We can put a yard sign out for whoever runs against him. There's a lot of productive between sit at our keyboards and running ourselves. A lot of us got on the phone and hand wrote emails and real letters to our reps. That absolutely helped and, we're gonna need a lot more come the fall.

SIGNES your assumption that we don't do these things already is quite short sighted on your part. Many of us have been doing these things along with attending state house rallies and speaking face to face with lawmakers at the state house for decades. We've also been donating to groups who represent us for years. Get yourself some knowledge of our participation over the years before shit posting like this.

 

[Nico9283]

Another post by another newbie instructing us all on what to do because he/she really knows best.

what makes you think I’m a newbie? Without knowing a single thing about me other than what I posted, how much money would you be willing to wager that you could outshoot me on the range, or outsmart me in a courtroom?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Whether folks believe it or not, I want and am proposing strategies that I have decades of experience to tell me are effective, to keep and un#$%^& our 2A rights in MA to the maximum extent possible in the current political climate, preserve them if it swings further left, and be a foundation to expand them if the representation gets more balanced.

Could you please elaborate on your decades of experience, and some examples of when you have found such compromises on gun rights to be effective in the long term? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[AJK129]

what makes you think I’m a newbie? Without knowing a single thing about me other than what I posted, how much money would you be willing to wager that you could outshoot me on the range, or outsmart me in a courtroom?

Do you know which Dunks to meet at?

 

[milktree]

D candidate
As a libertarian there are several degrees of overlap on social issues so I would be inclined to vote that way even though it would tick me off that government will continue to grow unabated.

R candidate
Same thing as the D, so I would be inclined to vote that way

Yep. Deliberately created identical fictional candidates, separated only by the letter after their name. (names?)

But what you just described is fictional. No conservative would get nominated that way and any liberal who made it that far wouldn't get the free Bloomberg bucks.

And this is a huge problem. I don't have any faith that left wing candidates will see the light, but I can imagine that in a state like Mass. where the purity test leans left, the "R" party might recognize that maybe, just maybe, embracing some of "their" rights in order to advance "our" rights is a good idea. ("their" and "our" are in scare-quotes because all the rights are important to everyone, even if they don't recognize it)

I don't care about far left causes. I would just like to see the democrats remove themselves from Michael Bloombergs dick so that we can have productive conversations. They're too busy looking for quick and easy money. But I fear that in 2023 this is now impossible because of the way in which the parties are funded. So we're screwed no matter which way the pendulum swings.

Yep.

This is one of the reasons I really like ranked choice voting. The current system makes it impossible for anyone to be moderate on anything, or disagree on any part of their party's line, and get elected. Every candidate has to go farther and farther away from the center to pass the purity tests of the most radical of their party.

 

[SIGNES]

at increasing restrictions.

Ok, one more try because you've been one of the more informative folks in the discussion.

Hypothetically, there is a bill banning all rifle calibers but 6.5 Creedmore. It's got the votes to pass.

You oppose this bill and propose one that bans 32 Long Rifle, .44 Webley, .75 Chinese Jingal and a few dozen others of similar utility. That bill passes because you gave them a list hundreds of items long and you keep .308, .233/5.56, 30 etc and all the other ones almost everyone here uses regularly...

Did negotiating win or lose?

 

[AJK129]

Ok, one more try because you've been one of the more informative folks in the discussion.

Hypothetically, there is a bill banning all rifle calibers but 6.5 Creedmore. It's got the votes to pass.

You oppose this bill and propose one that bans 32 Long Rifle, .44 Webley, .75 Chinese Jingal and a few dozen others of similar utility. That bill passes because you gave them a list hundreds of items long and you keep .308, .233/5.56, 30 etc and all the other ones almost everyone here uses regularly...

Did negotiating win or lose?

You still lost. You just got to keep one nut when they came to chop off two

 

[SwampYankee42]

This dude literally uses the words "bigotry, ignorance and aggression" in his signature and we are still taking him seriously. Good god

 

[Mesatchornug]

Ok, one more try because you've been one of the more informative folks in the discussion.

Hypothetically, there is a bill banning all rifle calibers but 6.5 Creedmore. It's got the votes to pass.

You oppose this bill and propose one that bans 32 Long Rifle, .44 Webley, .75 Chinese Jingal and a few dozen others of similar utility. That bill passes because you gave them a list hundreds of items long and you keep .308, .233/5.56, 30 etc and all the other ones almost everyone here uses regularly...

Did negotiating win or lose?

Lose.

We don't horsetrade rights.

 

[M60]

what makes you think I’m a newbie? Without knowing a single thing about me other than what I posted, how much money would you be willing to wager that you could outshoot me on the range, or outsmart me in a courtroom?

Well I'm not a lawyer, but I've been shooting for a little while now . Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was a friend of mine and taught me a thing or two, but you've probably never heard of him soooooo.
As for handguns, I shot on a Marine Corps shooting team in Okinawa for a bit. I've competed in steel plate shooting here in the states and won a year end championship once and when hunting boar I use a Freedom Arms 4 3/4 " 454 Cassul because its more fun than picking them off from a distance with a rifle, but listening to your challenge I'm sure you're much better than me. Now you know a little about me and I still know nothing about you but what the heck. When, where and for how much?

 

[Mesatchornug]

what makes you think I’m a newbie? Without knowing a single thing about me other than what I posted, how much money would you be willing to wager that you could outshoot me on the range, or outsmart me in a courtroom?

I pray for your clients that you do better there than here.

 

[Junior314]

@SIGNES examples of when compromises by gun owners in this state that didn’t lead to future erosion of rights. Specifics please.

Until then everything you post is noise.

 

[Picton]

But for SURE it exemplifies how many people here are closed minded and are in no way shape or form good arguers.

You're not the first to notice this. Be careful, however, lest @SpaceCritter come along and accuse you of being a Jesuit. He did that to me once.

You (and SIGNES) might do well to remember that the medium sometimes outweighs the message, especially on the interwebz. Sure, you might be great in a court of law, but here's the thing: NES is not a court of law. You might want to do a better job understanding your audience before you presume to chide them.

Just, y'know, "from the outside looking in."

I understand SIGNES' function here. I don't disagree that it's often great to have a devil's advocate posting. But, again, medium/message. He'd have done well, I think, to use the peripheral route to persuasion, rather than the central. He might not be the only one, either.

 

[Dench]

What are SIGs pronouns

 

[Mesatchornug]

You're not the first to notice this. Be careful, however, lest @SpaceCritter come along and accuse you of being a Jesuit. He did that to me once.

You (and SIGNES) might do well to remember that the medium sometimes outweighs the message, especially on the interwebz. Sure, you might be great in a court of law, but here's the thing: NES is not a court of law. You might want to do a better job understanding your audience before you presume to chide them.

Just, y'know, "from the outside looking in."

I understand SIGNES' function here. I don't disagree that it's often great to get a devil's advocate. But, again, medium/message. He'd have done well, I think, to use the peripheral route to persuasion, rather than the central. He might not be the only one, either.

Right. This is closer a barroom than a courtroom.

And the Devil's Advocate is a role taken by one who doesn't believe the position but still offers it the deserved zealous defense. This doesn't appropriately describe someone who genuinely believes their bad ideas lead to salvation.

 

[LotsaTiques]

Well I'm not a lawyer, but I've been shooting for a little while now . Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was a friend of mine and taught me a thing or two, but you've probably never heard of him soooooo.
As for handguns, I shot on a Marine Corps shooting team in Okinawa for a bit. I've competed in steel plate shooting here in the states and won a year end championship once and when hunting bore I use a Freedom Arms 4 3/4 " 454 Cassul because its more fun than picking them off from a distance with a rifle, but listening to your challenge I'm sure you're much better than me. Now you know a little about me and I still know nothing about you but what the heck. When, where and for how much?

Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[SIGNES]

Lose.

We don't horsetrade rights.

You're not even going to get a Pyrrhic victory.

And, you all do get that Leonidas I, Custer, Robert E. Lee,Trump, Bernie Sanders, all losers. Right?

 

[Mountain]

Ok, one more try because you've been one of the more informative folks in the discussion.

Hypothetically, there is a bill banning all rifle calibers but 6.5 Creedmore. It's got the votes to pass.

You oppose this bill and propose one that bans 32 Long Rifle, .44 Webley, .75 Chinese Jingal and a few dozen others of similar utility. That bill passes because you gave them a list hundreds of items long and you keep .308, .233/5.56, 30 etc and all the other ones almost everyone here uses regularly...

Did negotiating win or lose?

You are overlooking or ignoring another element of your hypothetical situation. The all calibers but 6.5 CM bill is so heinous that it won't stand up to further court challenges for a variety of reasons, thus the entire thing goes to the dumpster. That's one of the arguments many are making here regarding 4420. I don't really buy into that one, but that's how I'm reading some of the posts that argue against concessions / partial passage of 4420. Personally, I am not in the "yeah, let it pass intact and we'll show them" camp. Neither do I think concessions / partial passage of 4420 is OK as I believe that current MA firearms laws are already overly restrictive.

Rather than concessions that cause more erosion of 2A rights, why not a re-direct so that the libs come away with a 'win' via that? Stricter enforcement against violent offenders? This current bill targets law abiding citizens and makes life worse for them, rather than do anything effective against the ones actually committing the crimes. Of course I'm exaggerating, but if MA passed a law that the sentence for conviction of armed robbery with a gun is amputation of both legs- that would put a dent in gun crime. Perps would think, don't use a gun in MA- they'll chop your legs off. (For reality's sake substitute some sort of harsher sentencing for legs chopped).

 

[milktree]

Another thought experiment:

Let's say a bill was put forward that:
- Made MG license issuance subject to state guidelines, so individual towns couldn't just refuse to issue by policy
- Removed restrictions on supressors/silencers
- Abolished the AWB
- Abolished the AG's list
- Abolished the EOPS list
- Required accusers in "red flag" situations to swear under oath under penalty of purjury
- Increased the number of private sales per year from four to six
- Removed the prohibition on "kitchen table" FFLs
- Eliminated the training requirements for "non-carry" (home, range, hunting) licences
- Increased training requirements for "carry" licences (to something like, but not specifially, NRA PPIH + PPOH)

Would you be in favor of it?

That kinda looks like "giving up something" if you only look at the the last line. But overall, it looks pretty sweet, doesn't it?

Yea, yea, "but that would never happen!!!11ELEVEN!!11" That's why it's a thought experiment.

 

[Mountain]

I pray for your clients that you do better there than here.

ROFL, pure gold.

 

[SIGNES]

Right. This is closer a barroom than a courtroom.

And the Devil's Advocate is a role taken by one who doesn't believe the position but still offers it the deserved zealous defense. This doesn't appropriately describe someone who genuinely believes their bad ideas lead to salvation.

I am not taking a devil's advocate position. I am arguing my sincere beliefs and, I am absolutely interested productive suggestions for better concessions to make to preserve a net win. Devil's advocate positions should only be taken transparently.

 

[Picton]

You are overlooking or ignoring another element of your hypothetical situation. The all calibers but 6.5 CM bill is so heinous that it won't stand up to further court challenges for a variety of reasons, thus the entire thing goes to the dumpster.

This. I pointed this out yesterday: SIGNES appears to live in a world where Bruen did not happen, and where legislators have no fear of court action. Whereas, in reality, the whole sorry story of this HD 4220 debacle spells out that the legislature cares VERY MUCH about court action.

 

[Mountain]

I am not taking a devil's advocate position. I am arguing my sincere beliefs and, I am absolutely interested productive suggestions for better concessions to make to preserve a net win. Devil's advocate positions should only be taken transparently.

Rather than being interested in better concessions, shouldn't you be interested in better solutions?