Massachusetts Bill HD.4420 "An act to modernize gun Laws"

[Nico9283]

And the Devil's Advocate is a role taken by one who doesn't believe the position but still offers it the deserved zealous defense. This doesn't appropriately describe someone who genuinely believes their bad ideas lead to salvation.

That’s a fair point

 

[vcman]

Well I'm not a lawyer, but I've been shooting for a little while now . Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was a friend of mine and taught me a thing or two, but you've probably never heard of him soooooo.
As for handguns, I shot on a Marine Corps shooting team in Okinawa for a bit. I've competed in steel plate shooting here in the states and won a year end championship once and when hunting bore I use a Freedom Arms 4 3/4 " 454 Cassul because its more fun than picking them off from a distance with a rifle, but listening to your challenge I'm sure you're much better than me. Now you know a little about me and I still know nothing about you but what the heck. When, where and for how much?

wow,u know carlohathcock? That nice, did he pass on some of his sniping tricks to ya? What it like to shoot with the man?

 

[SIGNES]

You are overlooking or ignoring another element of your hypothetical situation. The all calibers but 6.5 CM bill is so heinous that it won't stand up to further court challenges for a variety of reasons, thus the entire thing goes to the dumpster. That's one of the arguments many are making here regarding 4420. I don't really buy into that one, but that's how I'm reading some of the posts that argue against concessions / partial passage of 4420. Personally, I am not in the "yeah, let it pass intact and we'll show them" camp. Neither do I think concessions / partial passage of 4420 is OK as I believe that current MA firearms laws are already overly restrictive.

Rather than concessions that cause more erosion of 2A rights, why not a re-direct so that the libs come away with a 'win' via that? Stricter enforcement against violent offenders? This current bill targets law abiding citizens and makes life worse for them, rather than do anything effective against the ones actually committing the crimes. Of course I'm exaggerating, but if MA passed a law that the sentence for conviction of armed robbery with a gun is amputation of both legs- that would put a dent in gun crime. Perps would think, don't use a gun in MA- they'll chop your legs off. (For reality's sake substitute some sort of harsher sentencing for legs chopped).

We mostly agree! We especially agree that current MA law is absurd. Where likely differ is in our faith in a court intervention. Even if there is one, it will take forever, be crushingly costly with a resource imbalance in covering those costs (and, as taxpayers we end up paying for both side's lawyers) and there will be a lot of needless suffering in the interim.

I also agree that we should be pitching other aspects of public safety and have said so. (The number of times I get the dog-whistle audio frequency "yeah, the problem is black people, deal with them as 'public safety fixes" is horrifying and makes the advocates for 2A all appear to be complete scumbags though.) The caliber ban analogy was to point out that there are concessions we could look for that don't materially impact our actual (not absolute) rights and come with improvements to the currently really crappy landscape (renewal related issues, 'standard cap' mags, the absolutely absurd state of the roster that's gutted by a completely separate 'consumer protection law '.

I mean, look at the post above asking about my pronouns? How is that going #$%^& to get us anywhere when debating the MA legislature? (Fort the purposes of the person asking, my pronouns are "Sir and, in formal settings "this li'l bitch's Master")

P.S. I personally give zero $%^&*'s about Glocks, my handle should be a hint on which side of that preference debate I come down on but it's patently ridiculous they they are banned from FFL sale to the public. It's ridiculous.

 

[Mesatchornug]

You're not even going to get a Pyrrhic victory.

And, you all do get that Leonidas I, Custer, Robert E. Lee,Trump, Bernie Sanders, all losers. Right?

Here I'll defer to a better man than I. Take it away, Dr. King

I would agree with St. Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all.”

Letter from Birmingham Jail, by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s letter to 8 white church leaders, written from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

letterfromjail.com

I am not taking a devil's advocate position. I am arguing my sincere beliefs and, I am absolutely interested productive suggestions for better concessions to make to preserve a net win. Devil's advocate positions should only be taken transparently.

The post to which I was replying, itself replied to a poster who accused you of playing the role. I'd suggest you take it up with him; I know you're being genuine.

 

[SIGNES]

Well I'm not a lawyer, but I've been shooting for a little while now . Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was a friend of mine and taught me a thing or two, but you've probably never heard of him soooooo.
As for handguns, I shot on a Marine Corps shooting team in Okinawa for a bit. I've competed in steel plate shooting here in the states and won a year end championship once and when hunting bore I use a Freedom Arms 4 3/4 " 454 Cassul because its more fun than picking them off from a distance with a rifle, but listening to your challenge I'm sure you're much better than me. Now you know a little about me and I still know nothing about you but what the heck. When, where and for how much?

I am pure $%^&* with a rifle. I mean it's pathetic really. You'd almost certainly still win with pistols too. But... I work multiple times a month on improving my skills.

 

[SIGNES]

This. I pointed this out yesterday: SIGNES appears to live in a world where Bruen did not happen, and where legislators have no fear of court action. Whereas, in reality, the whole sorry story of this HD 4220 debacle spells out that the legislature cares VERY MUCH about court action.

We all (in MA) live in a world where Bruen didn't happen (except for the now single class of LTC) nothing, not a damned thing has gotten better in MA and it's very visibly headed for worse. In terms of processing times, I think but can't prove because I only have anecdote,that in 'non green towns' processing has been slowed from pre-Bruen pace as a form of malicious compliance by the anti Chiefs.

 

[M60]

I am pure $%^&* with a rifle. I mean it's pathetic really. You'd almost certainly still win with pistols too. But... I work multiple times a month on improving my skills.

Well that's the way to get better. Keep it up.

 

[Mesatchornug]

We all (in MA) live in a world where Bruen didn't happen (except for the now single class of LTC) nothing, not a damned thing has gotten better in MA and it's very visibly headed for worse. In terms of processing times, I think but can't prove because I only have anecdote,that in 'non green towns' processing has been slowed from pre-Bruen pace as a form of malicious compliance by the anti Chiefs.

Meanwhile, in those non-green towns, all LTCs are unrestricted. That's a huge improvement. It may not affect you, personally, but it did affect several people who I know. And it's really the only change Bruen was supposed to cause. Everything else, everywhere else, is bonus.

 

[SIGNES]

Meanwhile, in those non-green towns, all LTCs are unrestricted. That's a huge improvement. It may not affect you, personally, but it did affect several people who I know. And it's really the only change Bruen was supposed to cause. Everything else, everywhere else, is bonus.

Unquestionably better. That's why I said "except for" and, I agree it's huge but.. What did 4420 include? The effective degradation of all LTCs to FIDs with special bonus jail-traps.

(Passage of 4420, would have inevitably created a 'stealth' class of LTC for those with sufficient influence equivalent to the current unrestricted but that's just speculation.. informed speculation that, oddly, maps to green cards as implemented today but still speculation)

 

[SIGNES]

Well that's the way to get better. Keep it up.

Mostly working pistol. When I think about what it takes to get really good with a rifle, I'm forced to confront my age and the eyesight that comes with it. Not to mention, for me, the impracticality of learning to hand load. If I can get to reliably <4 MOA at 100 yards, I'll be psyched.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Unquestionably better. That's why I said "except for" and, I agree it's huge but.. What did 4420 include? The effective degradation of all LTCs to FIDs with special bonus jail-traps.

Yes. That's what a "Bruen response bill" would be expected to include. And you'll note that pressure resulted in its not being advanced. This is better than advancing some half-bill that'll allow them to come back for the rest next session.

(Passage of 4420, would have inevitably created a 'stealth' class of LTC for those with sufficient influence equivalent to the current unrestricted but that's just speculation.. informed speculation that, oddly, maps to green cards as implemented today but still speculation)

In fact, it wouldn't.

That would be an additional bill after 4420. Best of all, that bill would fail the Bruen test, and put the lie to 4420 before it.

Yes, that would take time, and cost (us) significant money. It would also be incredibly uncomfortable.

As has been said countless (because I'm too lazy to do so; see barrrom analogy above) times before, we are at the beginning of a Civil Rights fight, not the end.

 

[M60]

I am pure $%^&* with a rifle. I mean it's pathetic really. You'd almost certainly still win with pistols too. But... I work multiple times a month on improving my skills.

Mostly working pistol. When I think about what it takes to get really good with a rifle, I'm forced to confront my age and the eyesight that comes with it. Not to mention, for me, the impracticality of learning to hand load. If I can get to reliably <4 MOA at 100 yards, I'll be psyched.

What are using for a rifle

 

[Mesatchornug]

Mostly working pistol. When I think about what it takes to get really good with a rifle, I'm forced to confront my age and the eyesight that comes with it. Not to mention, for me, the impracticality of learning to hand load. If I can get to reliably <4 MOA at 100 yards, I'll be psyched.

With all due respect - check out an Appleseed. The fundamentals are the same whether pistol or rifle, and 4MOA really isn't bad. (It's a postage stamp at 25yds.)

Home - Project Appleseed

Menu Learn marksmanship. Support liberty. Be inspired. Learn More find an event “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Rifle Clinic Rifle Clinic Family friendly event for ages and experience levels Find an Event Pistol Clinic Pistol Clinic Family...

appleseedinfo.org

 

[SIGNES]

Yes. That's what a "Bruen response bill" would be expected to include. And you'll note that pressure resulted in its not being advanced. This is better than advancing some half-bill that'll allow them to come back for the rest next session.


In fact, it wouldn't.

That would be an additional bill after 4420. Best of all, that bill would fail the Bruen test, and put the lie to 4420 before it.

Yes, that would take time, and cost (us) significant money. It would also be incredibly uncomfortable.

As has been said countless (because I'm too lazy to do so; see barrrom analogy above) times before, we are at the beginning of a Civil Rights fight, not the end.

I don't think there would be a bill. I think it would be a corrupt off the books deal. Much as there's no bill covering the speeding passes I can't give the actual name of some folks get from the Staties now.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I don't think there would be a bill. I think it would be a corrupt off the books deal. Much as there's no bill covering the speeding passes I can't give the actual name of some folks get from the Staties now.

You're describing ordinary graft. No need for 4420 to get there. Of course, in a world where off-duty LEO aren't allowed to carry, I doubt they'll be doing favors for anybody who is supposed to be their better.

 

[SIGNES]

What are using for a rifle

Maura-approved items. Nothing tuned for sub-MOA accuracy. The flaws though are in my technique not the rifles (mil-spec tiggers aside) . Lousy with the whole respiratory pause thing, and, again, the distance vision thing. I'm totally 'on the paper' at 100 yards now, I dunno, I'll guess mostly sub-six inch groups prone or on a stand with a bipod? It's the 'flyers' that tick me off mostly. The lapses of skill that puts me at the edge of paper more than the average size of the groups.

 

[SIGNES]

You're describing ordinary graft. No need for 4420 to get there. Of course, in a world where off-duty LEO aren't allowed to carry, I doubt they'll be doing favors for anybody who is supposed to be their better.

Yes definitely on the graft but the graft kicks in when 4420 gelds the unrestricted LTC. On two, I don't think there was any way the no-LEO exception would have passed. I think that was the 'concession' they were keeping in their pockets so they could appear to negotiate.

 

[M60]

We mostly agree! We especially agree that current MA law is absurd. Where likely differ is in our faith in a court intervention. Even if there is one, it will take forever, be crushingly costly with a resource imbalance in covering those costs (and, as taxpayers we end up paying for both side's lawyers) and there will be a lot of needless suffering in the interim.

I also agree that we should be pitching other aspects of public safety and have said so. (The number of times I get the dog-whistle audio frequency "yeah, the problem is black people, deal with them as 'public safety fixes" is horrifying and makes the advocates for 2A all appear to be complete scumbags though.) The caliber ban analogy was to point out that there are concessions we could look for that don't materially impact our actual (not absolute) rights and come with improvements to the currently really crappy landscape (renewal related issues, 'standard cap' mags, the absolutely absurd state of the roster that's gutted by a completely separate 'consumer protection law '.

I mean, look at the post above asking about my pronouns? How is that going #$%^& to get us anywhere when debating the MA legislature? (Fort the purposes of the person asking, my pronouns are "Sir and, in formal settings "this li'l bitch's Master")

P.S. I personally give zero $%^&*'s about Glocks, my handle should be a hint on which side of that preference debate I come down on but it's patently ridiculous they they are banned from FFL sale to the public. It's ridiculous.

I'm not a Glock fan boy either. Even though I have two. I have a glock 21 just because 13+1 rounds of 45 acp in a handgun along with a attached laser/light is comforting at home at night. I also have a Glock 19 with the same laser/light combination because its a proven super backup to a preban AR in case of whatever.

 

[M60]

Maura-approved items. Nothing tuned for sub-MOA accuracy. The flaws though are in my technique not the rifles (mil-spec tiggers aside) . Lousy with the whole respiratory pause thing, and, again, the distance vision thing. I'm totally 'on the paper' at 100 yards now, I dunno, I'll guess mostly sub-six inch groups prone or on a stand with a bipod? It's the 'flyers' that tick me off mostly. The lapses of skill that puts me at the edge of paper more than the average size of the groups.

Sounds like sight alignment may be a issue. Remember sight alignment is when the tip if the front sight blade is centered from left to right in the rear sight. Think if this each time you fire. Insure that you have sight alignment before each shot. Watch what happens. You'll be suprised.

 

[Picton]

Yes definitely on the graft but the graft kicks in when 4420 gelds the unrestricted LTC. On two, I don't think there was any way the no-LEO exception would have passed. I think that was the 'concession' they were keeping in their pockets so they could appear to negotiate.

This is what I was saying earlier about you not acknowledging Bruen. A law that "gelds the unrestricted LTC" undergoes a near-instantaneous injunction. It becomes a law with a high probability of being unconstitutional under Bruen, meaning it gets enjoined until appeal; it never goes into effect.

And if it doesn't get enjoined? Free men of goodwill disobey unjust laws, as King did. And then if they get arrested, the law finds its way to court that much faster.

I've posted before that we're in the 1955 version of our own "Brown v Board" fight: this just happened, and now states in opposition to the new order are flexing their muscles (or not, in MA's case). That fight took twenty years, even AFTER Brown. That's, sadly, the system we live under. I'm with MLK: targeted lawfare, wise disobedience, and faith in the courts will eventually get us there. Others, including many well-meaning people here on NES, think that's too slow: they're the Malcolm Xs of this fight. They're tired of waiting and want things to move faster, and I respect them even though I disagree with them.

You? You are neither. You'd have gone along with school segregation because you don't think it's worth the fight. I think that's a shame. History shows we will win. It'd be nice if you had some faith in that, but maybe that's not in you. Okay. But at least quit advocating that the rest of us slink off into the shadows with you.

 

[SIGNES]

Sounds like sight alignment may be a issue. Remember sight alignment is when the tip if the front sight blade is centered from left to right in the rear sight. Think if this each time you fire. Insure that you have sight alignment before each shot. Watch what happens. You'll be suprised.

Using an LPVO on one and a red dot and magnifier on the other. Friends who are competent do better than I do with them so it's not a zeroing issue. I am totally aware that 'bozo' is in play with my skills, hence the continued work. I am just managing my expectations because I see pistol expertise as far more attainable for me, and, for my taste, more fun.

 

[M60]

Using an LPVO on one and a red dot and magnifier on the other. Friends who are competent do better than I do with them so it's not a zeroing issue. I am totally aware that 'bozo' is in play with my skills, hence the continued work. I am just managing my expectations because I see pistol expertise as far more attainable for me, and, for my taste, more fun.

Everyone likes something different. That's why we have so many flavors of ice cream right. Do your thing and enjoy.

 

[1903Collector]

Ok, one more try because you've been one of the more informative folks in the discussion.

Hypothetically, there is a bill banning all rifle calibers but 6.5 Creedmore. It's got the votes to pass.

You oppose this bill and propose one that bans 32 Long Rifle, .44 Webley, .75 Chinese Jingal and a few dozen others of similar utility. That bill passes because you gave them a list hundreds of items long and you keep .308, .233/5.56, 30 etc and all the other ones almost everyone here uses regularly...

Did negotiating win or lose?

We have been doing this negotiating since '34, Things are not getting better are they.

 

[Goliathan]

Ok, one more try because you've been one of the more informative folks in the discussion.

Hypothetically, there is a bill banning all rifle calibers but 6.5 Creedmore. It's got the votes to pass.

You oppose this bill and propose one that bans 32 Long Rifle, .44 Webley, .75 Chinese Jingal and a few dozen others of similar utility. That bill passes because you gave them a list hundreds of items long and you keep .308, .233/5.56, 30 etc and all the other ones almost everyone here uses regularly...

Did negotiating win or lose?

Lose.

Because they'll say "Thanks very much for the 32LR, Webley, etc. But we must close that 6.5 Creed loophole. Think of the children!"

 

[M60]

wow,u know carlohathcock? That nice, did he pass on some of his sniping tricks to ya? What it like to shoot with the man?

Gunny was a special guy. Very unassuming. He owned and operated a sniper school in Virginia Beach. PD's like LAPD and Atlanta PD sent their best shooters to his school.
When federal ammo wanted to make their now famous 168 gr. Match grade .308 ammo they went to gunny and asked him to help create and perfect it. I had both Gunny and his wife Joe up here for a visit before he passed. During the visit I told him I was having trouble finding that particular ammo. I didn't know he was involved with Federal at the time. He laughed and asked how much I would like. Joe complained that her garage was full of pallets of it and she couldn't get her car in the garage. Federal sent it to him by the pallet. The pallet no less.

 

[allen-1]

From the outside looking in… I think a lot of you are overlooking a valuable part of Signes being part of the conversation. Most of you are calling him names and claiming he’s a troll.. which may be the case, but I can’t say for certain that he is.
What I CAN say for certain is that, regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with any of his viewpoints, him playing devils advocate is a good thought exercise for all of us. Living in an echo chamber and surrounding yourself only with like-minded people makes you a weak arguer over time.

Having someone who disagrees with you, either entirely or just on some things, is an excellent way to poke holes in each others arguments.. and that allows both parties to fix and therefore strengthen their arguments.

I’ve been reading a lot of what the regulars here have been posting, and one thing has dawned on me that so many of you gloss over:

1.) “going green” does not make you educated.

2.) having been “using firearms for the last 40+ years” does not make you educated.

The amount of arrogance in this thread is absolutely mind boggling. Some of it might be good-natured inside jokes, some of it might be sheer ignorance. But for SURE it exemplifies how many people here are closed minded and are in no way shape or form good arguers. It’s pretty clear how few of you have actual experience inside a court room, how few of you have actual experience in politics, and how few of you are really even give off a vibe that you care about anything except yourself.

There’s a very evident amount of tribalism in this thread. It’s not welcoming of new members, it’s doesn’t increase knowledge (I’d even argue it lessens knowledge and muddies the waters), and it certainly doesn’t help the image of the 2A community. If I was to try and imagine myself as a liberal looking at this thread, I could somewhat understand some of the stereotypes that have been associated with us.

Do better. All of you. A lot of you are claiming to have decades of experience in shooting sports, so my assumption is that the median age of this thread is in the upper 40s and 50’s, but reading this thread is like listening to a bunch of pubescent school girls trying to gang up against the new, hot girl who has the attention of the popular jock. Honestly grow up.

 

[Harry Christopher]

Thought experiment:
Say there was a candidate with "D" after their name, who was pro choice, pro gay/trans/etc. rights, pro social safety net, pro public schools, pro public services, and *ALSO* had a long history of being pro gun rights - like, participated in IDPA, mocked AWBs, openly stated that suppressors were good for everyone and idiotic to regulate, thought the Hughes amendment was bad law, etc. Would you vote for that person?

Or how about this:

Say there was a candidate with "R" after their name, who had a long history of being pro gun rights - like, participated in IDPA, mocked AWBs, openly stated that suppressors were good for everyone and idiotic to regulate, thought the Hughes amendment was bad law, etc- but was also pro choice, pro gay/trans/etc. rights, pro social safety net, pro public schools, pro public services, etc. Would you vote for that person?

If the answer is "no" to either of those, how much do you really care about second amendment rights?


The reality in Mass. is that anyone who isn't "left enough", CAN NOT GET ELECTED. Period.

I'd be absolutely tickled to get a hard-line pro rights candidate elected, no matter what the rest of their positions are.

It has been said that as one gets older, they have a desire to simplify their daily existence and cast aside what they now consider superfluous "stuff" surplus to the requirements of sustaining everyday life as they wish it now to be. This "stuff" consists of not just the physical things lying around the basement and garage but, perhaps more importantly, opinions that one held previously that no longer stand the test of close inspection in view of where we are as a society today. After you have been around the block and been towed several times, one develops a more nuanced appreciation and understanding of how societal organizations really function in the wild and what exactly your part entails as a member of this social cohort.

The political hot button issues of pro-choice vs no pro-choice, an individual's choice of what gender of person to fall in love with, one's choice of what, if any religious beliefs they hold and many more opinion driven issues have really palled in importance to my list of what is critical to my continued survival in a world where the age-old touchstones no longer seem to emanate with the same clearly defined value and relevance that they once did.

At this late stage of my life the ability to provide safety and security for me and mine has ascended to the top of my daily to do list and everything else has become just details at best and irrelevant at worst. A person who is gay is not a threat to my continuing to live unless he or she have a weapon in hand that is capable of infliction of death or grievous bodily injury to myself or my loved ones and they have the ability, opportunity and jeopardy to bring that threat to fruition. Their sexual orientation is completely irrelevant to my ability to survive the encounter.

What is relevant in this instance is whether or not I have been denied the ability to formulate my own informed decision regarding if I wish to avail myself of access to arms to protect the family entity or whether due to pernicious legislative mandates I have been denied that ability as a result of slavish legislative dogmatic political adherence to the advance of whatever that days' party narrative happens to be.

I don't care if an individual chooses to sacrifice small furry animals in wild unrestrained pagan rituals while dancing naked around a bonfire in the deep wooded precincts of the Back of Beyond...just as long as they are not my animals or in my woods. What I do care about is having the legal ability to choose how I wish to address the family units' well-being without interference from individuals who in all likelihood have never come face to face with a situation which demands their having to give serious consideration to the employment of their service weapon in order to adequately address a criminal threat against them.

In my attempt to simplify my own life I have discarded past social opinions and come to regard legislative attempts to disarm me to constitute nothing less than a concerted effort to cause irreparable harm to my family's well-being. As a direct result of this belief, I will support at the ballet box individuals who agree with my point of view that self-defense is in fact a human right as the GOAL poster says and all other hot button issues are irrelevant to me and mine. In short, I have evolved into a 2A All The Way sort of cranky old man.....and I can live with that.

 

[SIGNES]

This is what I was saying earlier about you not acknowledging Bruen. A law that "gelds the unrestricted LTC" undergoes a near-instantaneous injunction. It becomes a law with a high probability of being unconstitutional under Bruen, meaning it gets enjoined until appeal; it never goes into effect.

And if it doesn't get enjoined? Free men of goodwill disobey unjust laws, as King did. And then if they get arrested, the law finds its way to court that much faster.

I've posted before that we're in the 1955 version of our own "Brown v Board" fight: this just happened, and now states in opposition to the new order are flexing their muscles (or not, in MA's case). That fight took twenty years, even AFTER Brown. That's, sadly, the system we live under. I'm with MLK: targeted lawfare, wise disobedience, and faith in the courts will eventually get us there. Others, including many well-meaning people here on NES, think that's too slow: they're the Malcolm Xs of this fight. They're tired of waiting and want things to move faster, and I respect them even though I disagree with them.

You? You are neither. You'd have gone along with school segregation because you don't think it's worth the fight. I think that's a shame. History shows we will win. It'd be nice if you had some faith in that, but maybe that's not in you. Okay. But at least quit advocating that the rest of us slink off into the shadows with you.

But it doesn't. What Bruen put halt to were administrative hurdles without objective standards to get the permitted. Precluded two tiered permits that were about preserving the states unconstitutional use of subjective criteria.(In part on the basis that those subjective criteria were racist but heaven forfend you'd make an argument that successfully got us back gun rights using commie language)

It was a win for 'shall issue' over 'may issue'. It touches on other questions (safe spaces) but the case is explicitly about may vs shall issue. It also has nothing in it that explicitly precludes "shall issue whoever the hell we get around to it."

We can be sure our beloved MA congress will be looking for objective criteria that will make it harder to qualify.

Go look at the current New York post-Bruen form: https://troopers.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2022/10/ppb-3-08-22.pdf and note: "
"Social Media Accounts-THIS SECTION ONLY APPLIES TO CARRY CONCEALED - LIST FORMER AND CURRENT SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS"

Is that absolute bullshit? You bet your bippy it's bullshit. Do I think it won't stand a court challenge? Probably not but no way to know until somebody tries it. Do I know MA will be looking for that and every other damned impediment they can put in place? Yepsters!

There is also nothing nearly so SCOTUS- certain that, for example, would have prima facie prevented the 'banned unless permission granted' on private property aspect of 4420. There's nothing absolutely certain that the objective criteria required by Bruen be sane objective criteria

Give it a read: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-843_7j80.pdf

Bruen helps, but it doesn't solve all the problems.

 

[mothybee]

Well, aside from the warm welcome, I just hadn't gotten around to it, to be completely hones, because I don't use PayPal (and you shouldn't either but that's a whole other discussion but, seriously, $%^& PayPal) and hadn't gotten around to stuffing some cash in an envelope.

I agree with you about using the anti gun paypal, I just use a credit card, easy peasy but, whatever.

 

[SIGNES]

Lose.

Because they'll say "Thanks very much for the 32LR, Webley, etc. But we must close that 6.5 Creed loophole. Think of the children!"

Well, I mean yeah.. 6.5 Creedmoore.. we should think of the children.

But, jokes aside, the theory is, you only concede what will get you some portion of what you want that's more than they wanted to give and you still know the unavoidable reality that they'll come back again later to #$%^ with us more. A 'settled and negotiated' deal could, for example, include provisions that kept it in force as for some period of time.