Massachusetts Bill HD.4420 "An act to modernize gun Laws"

[The Anchor]

any chance at all this is available by zoom?

its whitinsville fish and game, not sure if they even have the internet there yet...

 

[Grendizer138]

Home Depot carries plenty of saws...

Seriously, can you imagine how hard it would be to get good customer assistance in the MG aisle? It'd take forever to find an Orange Apron to tell you where they were, then when you got there it would be M240s and not M249s, so they'd have to ask the manager, then once you found the right aisle there'd be a ten-minute delay while they close off both ends and summon the one guy in the store qualified to go up on the lift and grab the box, because the SAW on the shelf is just a floor model and has no bolt.

No thanks. You could just go to the handtool aisle instead, buy a file, and have as many MGs as there are semiautos in your safe. Lol.

 

[VetteGirlMA]

But Thomas allows for a great many licensing requirements in Bruen:

When asked at trial if the people behind NYSRPA were contesting licensing requirements they answered negative. They were purely concerned with the idea that RKBA doesn’t mean inside only the home but also outside the home. New York State at that time barred any carrying outside the home.

We do know how SCOTUS would vote on licensing since that will eventually hit the courts. In the DC circuit Kavanaugh explained it in the second Heller decision that any licensing scheme could exist but must have a minimally inconvenient process. In other words likening it to renewing a drivers license. The license process itself must be minimal and quick.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

I can't rationalize the cost of even one machine gun at current prices. But where I was going with my suggestions re: machine guns was: They are currently 'banned' in MA.

Not sure why you would type that. I have a green-card and know many other individuals in MA that do as well. The action below was filmed in MA within the past 6 months and perfectly legal.

AK-47

 

[BigGreen2000]

When asked at trial if the people behind NYSRPA were contesting licensing requirements they answered negative. They were purely concerned with the idea that RKBA doesn’t mean inside only the home but also outside the home. New York State at that time barred any carrying outside the home.

We do know how SCOTUS would vote on licensing since that will eventually hit the courts. In the DC circuit Kavanaugh explained it in the second Heller decision that any licensing scheme could exist but must have a minimally inconvenient process. In other words likening it to renewing a drivers license. The license process itself must be minimal and quick.

Not often that Clarence Thomas asks questions during SCOTUS trials!

 

[VetteGirlMA]

Miller should have defeated the NFA in 1939. Because he was dead there was no final defense, as a result they felt comfortable splitting the baby. They argued that SBSs aren't used in warfare so they needn't be protected from infringement. In reality, they were in use by the US military in specialist roles during WWI. A complete defense probably would have knocked down everything, but the Court wanted to protect the government's ability to interfere where it feels it knows best.

In the world where Miller survived to complete the case, the intervening 84 years of creeping restriction might never have happened.

Interestingly there was no one in the court on Miller’s side which is again why I question the decision at all. The original complainant Miller was dead, the court took the case anyways. The entire Supreme Court case was totally 1 sided because there was no one to represent Miller and clearing his name after dying in prison isn’t really much of a reward. How the courts took this and not mooted it is beyond me.

 

[Goliathan]

Interestingly there was no one in the court on Miller’s side which is again why I question the decision at all. The original complainant Miller was dead, the court took the case anyways. The entire Supreme Court case was totally 1 sided because there was no one to represent Miller and clearing his name after dying in prison isn’t really much of a reward. How the courts took this and not mooted it is beyond me.

Miller died (or was found shot dead, anyway) after the case was taken but before the decision came down. Nobody on his side appeared at SCOTUS because he was a known bank robber who informed on his co-defendants, and vanished as soon as he was released. He also had no money to pay for representation at SCOTUS... both of these things were known to the lower court judge and figured into his decision to rule the way he did: he was anti-gun and wanted SCOTUS to rule in favor of the gun control law.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Interestingly there was no one in the court on Miller’s side which is again why I question the decision at all. The original complainant Miller was dead, the court took the case anyways. The entire Supreme Court case was totally 1 sided because there was no one to represent Miller and clearing his name after dying in prison isn’t really much of a reward. How the courts took this and not mooted it is beyond me.

(My understanding is) They had already accepted the case, then he died while waiting to go before the Court. It seems the Court felt it was important enough to make a decision - probably to reinforce the importance of the NFA and the government in enforcing it.

 

[MGnoob]

There is so much stupid in this thread..
Some of you were against the bill but support some really f***ing stupid ideas..

And that’s why gun control is even a thing

 

[VetteGirlMA]

(My understanding is) They had already accepted the case, then he died while waiting to go before the Court. It seems the Court felt it was important enough to make a decision - probably to reinforce the importance of the NFA and the government in enforcing it.

But why accept the case if it’s moot? Miller wanted out of prison being convicted under the NFA for his sawed off shotgun. Once he died the controversy was over in my mind. The only reason I can think of is by that they wanted the decision. It was an 8-1 decision and it was half democrat and half Republican scotus at the time. They were probably reeling from having to deal with striking down FDRs new deal and may have been pushed into a corner by FDR who also at the time threatened to ‘pack the courts’ is any of his legislation was struck down.

Still nothing of this alters the reality that original decision in 1934 doesn’t apply any longer and so should be struck down.

I actually read a book on the us v miller case it was fascinating. The Cruikshank case was also fascinating as well and it was hard to get past the blatant racism that peddled at Cruikshank for his recent legislative win. The Harvard law school library has an ebook about the case. It’s something that could be made into a movie.

 

[Mesatchornug]

But why accept the case if it’s moot?

The case was already accepted. I think you're asking why continue with the case?

Miller wanted out of prison being convicted under the NFA for his sawed off shotgun. Once he died the controversy was over in my mind. The only reason I can think of is by that they wanted the decision.

Agreed. I think the controversy, at that point, wasn't Miller himself but the legitimacy of the NFA.

It was an 8-1 decision and it was half democrat and half Republican scotus at the time. They were probably reeling from having to deal with striking down FDRs new deal and may have been pushed into a corner by FDR who also at the time threatened to ‘pack the courts’ is any of his legislation was struck down.

Still nothing of this alters the reality that original decision in 1934 doesn’t apply any longer and so should be struck down.

Agreed.

 

[Dennis in MA]

the problem when there's too much money sloshing around and politicians start feeling like oprah claus

View attachment 778362

It's worse when people don't think it's a big deal that the government gets more $. This was the same state that passed 2 1/2 40 years ago. Damn. How far we've fallen. "It's just 5% of your streaming service a month." And the state gets 1%. For doing nothing. F them.

 

[Picton]

In the DC circuit Kavanaugh explained it in the second Heller decision that any licensing scheme could exist but must have a minimally inconvenient process. In other words likening it to renewing a drivers license. The license process itself must be minimal and quick.

I honestly don't know, and I'm curious whether you do: when he likened it to renewing a DL, did he address the fact that getting your initial DL requires extensive training?

 

[Ghost 2A Cerakote]

That's insane. It's a malum prohibitum law. Someone drives into Mass from a free state and without hurting anyone gets five years?

Well if someone is a prohibited person under federal law and is driving through Massachusetts with guns they knew the risk.

What does "any gun trafficking" mean? Selling a gun without state permission? Add "any" to that and you're in the territory of imprisoning someone who moved into the state with a bunch of guns, then decided to sell them.

Weapons trafficking is the movement or transportation of firearms, guns, weapons, parts, or ammunition from a legal to an illegal market.

As far as I know a person can move here with their guns and sell as many as they want through an ffl.

"flooding"? I mean, yea, we should work to stop those things, but don't amplify problems just for attention.




This whole "mental health" thing is a red herring.

Most violent crime is committed by drug users with desperation.

Drug addiction is in fact a mental disorder.

I know first hand what drugs do to people. My brother overdosed and before that lived a life of crime, violence, hurting all those around him even his own family, and never caring what the repercussions of his actions were. He was in and out of jail his whole life, and longest time served was a year. If the justice system was better he may still be alive.

My sister overdosed and almost died but in the meantime lost everything on her destruction path to drugs, violent crime, and desperation.

My other sister is currently in rehab due to a bad crack addiction. She too has lost every.

My father was a crack head who got desperate and committed armed robbery back in the day and served 10 years. He learned his lesson and hasn't touched a drug since he was released from prison in '89

Nowadays revolving door of the justice system is the issue.

There is 7 people in my immediate family and only 3 of us have our heads on straight me, my mom, and older brother.

Violent crime from my experience has everything to do with drugs, poverty, and desperation.

" violent crime is, at its core, economic, not mental-health related. Access to mental health is really important, and should be expanded, but don't fool yourself into thinking it'll make a measurable dent in violent crime. Even suicide (which is a HUGE percentage of so-called "gun deaths") are frequently related to economic problems."

It's like the "need more training" canard. Sure, training is good. But "providing more training" isn't going to reduce violent crime. Not even a tiny bit. Training will reduce accidental or negligent gun injuries, but they're not what we'd call a "big problem" in the greater context of deaths or injuries with guns.

I'm pretty sure Maine and Vermont and New Hampshire all have lower murder rates, but Mass. is one of the better states on that metric.

Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire combined have less people than Massachusetts. So the free neighbor states are hard to compare with our population being so much higher

 

[Dressed to Kill]

Massachusetts Gun Rights Group Plans To Rally Opponents Of Gun Reform Bill

Chris Lisinski One of the most vocal critics of a sweeping gun reform bill signaled Tuesday that it remains prepared to oppose the proposal if House Democrats bring it forward later this fall. A day after House Speaker Ron Mariano announced he would postpone his chamber’s deliberations on the...

fallriverreporter.com

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Home Depot carries plenty of saws...

Seriously, can you imagine how hard it would be to get good customer assistance in the MG aisle? It'd take forever to find an Orange Apron to tell you where they were, then when you got there it would be M240s and not M249s, so they'd have to ask the manager, then once you found the right aisle there'd be a ten-minute delay while they close off both ends and summon the one guy in the store qualified to go up on the lift and grab the box, because the SAW on the shelf is just a floor model and has no bolt.

No thanks. You could just go to the handtool aisle instead, buy a file, and have as many MGs as there are semiautos in your safe. Lol.

In the old days I expect acting suspicious (quickly moving between unrelated department, getting very close to a display with your hands hidden, quickly looking left and right) would get store security to alert a worker to do the "may I help you" thing, but today I expect they would send out an alert "shoplifter suspect, keep out of his way".

 

[SpeedwayMike]

The amount of adult injuries which could be prevented by just doing the warrior transition as a growing child properly is astounding.

What is the warrior transition?

 

[mothybee]

so here's that slippery slope. If the minor attracted mutants have their way, prohibitions against child molestation would be removed. Should the government not ban child molestation?

I'm not equating recreational drug use to child molestation. The .suck does have to regulate some things. Where do we draw that line?

Are we still debating that 'well regulated' might mean 'the people' instead of the militia and "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed "is the same as militia?

I'm still trying to figure out what all this has to do with drug dealers in Portugal

 

[s&w3913]

It’s just angering… I hate to say it and I used to get mad when people told me but MA has hit the accelerator pedal on going to shit since COVID. Moving was the best thing I did. Besides my family and some local restaurant and what few friends I have almost 40.. I have to take a news break from 4420 it makes me just… it’s against one of the morals I stand for! I keep saying try explaining that to a well educated southern gun owner… this proposed law or even how it currently works in MA then think your joking when you tell them! I bet if MA decided to ban some lbtq or abortion there would be riots!

 

[milktree]

Well if someone is a prohibited person under federal law and is driving through Massachusetts with guns they knew the risk.

This is one hell of a straw-man. He didn't say, "prohibited person", he said, "without an LTC" HUGE difference.

Weapons trafficking is the movement or transportation of firearms, guns, weapons, parts, or ammunition from a legal to an illegal market.

As far as I know a person can move here with their guns and sell as many as they want through an ffl.

Most violent crime is committed by drug users with desperation.

Can you cite that? (the bold part). I'm sure some is, yes. But most?

Drug addiction is in fact a mental disorder.

OK. Now do smoking.

Violent crime from my experience has everything to do with drugs, poverty, and desperation.

It's a pretty easy argument that "poverty and desperation" are the real causes here. Sure, some people are ruined by drugs, but the question of what got them into drugs?

" violent crime is, at its core, economic, not mental-health related. Access to mental health is really important, and should be expanded, but don't fool yourself into thinking it'll make a measurable dent in violent crime. Even suicide (which is a HUGE percentage of so-called "gun deaths") are frequently related to economic problems."

Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire combined have less people than Massachusetts. So the free neighbor states are hard to compare with our population being so much higher

Do you know what "rate" means? If not, go find out and re-write this. If so, why are you deflecting?

 

[mothybee]

Who's gonna write the laws? People with some interest in preservation of rights like GOAL or people who think Glocks are double secret probation dangerous because they're immune to metal detectors? The people currently in power in MA who will stay in power in MA know nothing about firearms. Know nothing about the impact on lawful owners/users when they write legislation. Know nothing about the complete lack of reduction in crime the laws they write will provide.

More laws are coming. The courts will not save us in a timely manner. (Look at what's happening in Washington State, hell, look at the cases filed here.) The courts current leanings are not permanent so the long run doesn't look good.

Pass a bill that makes them feel better. Let them declare victory while keeping, or even reclaiming our rights. Pragmatism is the only strategy with any traction.

And next year what do you propose.

 

[SteelShooter]

Not sure why you would type that. I have a green-card and know many other individuals in MA that do as well. The action below was filmed in MA within the past 6 months and perfectly legal.

AK-47

I think thats the overton window effect, you say they're legal, which they are, but only after jumping through all the hoops the PRM puts out there. The next step will be they'll all be gone because they are not 'commonly in use'. Thats the plan.

 

[mothybee]

I certainly do.

Milita did too. 16 to 60, you carried to the fields, to church, market day, you never knew, as the saying goes, ' better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.'

 

[mothybee]

And that is the central point as to why Miller must be discounted from the governments point of view.
If bearable arms in common use appropriate for militia service (National Guard) are the standard then select fire weapons ABSOLUTELY MUST BE LEGAL.

Meet the ‘Smuzzle,’ the Army’s new hybrid suppressor that reduces sound, recoil and flash

The "Smuzzle" is a hybrid suppressor and muzzle brake.

www.armytimes.com

Army Announces 2 New Rifles for Close-Combat Soldiers

The Army recently awarded a contract for two new soldier weapons: the XM5 rifle and the XM250 automatic rifle, which both will use the new 6.8 mm common cartridge family of ammunition and a new fire

www.defense.gov

but, but it sounds so diferent than the movies. pfft, pfft

 

[Arto]

Only take 150 signatures to get on the Ballot for State Rep:

https://www.sec.state.ma.us/divisions/elections/download/getting-on-the-ballot/How-to-Run-for-Office.pdf

 

[Dennis in MA]

I honestly don't know, and I'm curious whether you do: when he likened it to renewing a DL, did he address the fact that getting your initial DL requires extensive training?

Hmmm. Interesting point. I think the FAFO situation, assume the SC gets another case hasty-pronto, could be ugly for gun grabbers. "Look, you didn't take "reasonable" correctly. We're going to define reasonable for you instead."

But renewal? Should be a few second process. And in this state it clearly is NOT.

What is the warrior transition?

Second cousin to the Wet Willy.

 

[Da_lucche]

Something will pass. So, the question is, what can be pitched that we can live with. I'll risk the flames again and suggest the following as possible things we could negotiate. As I have been flamed repeatedly for saying absolutism is futile, I'll take the flames again.

1) Live fire and written test components for licensing. Trainers are private and the same pool of folks currently sanctioned to train and process to be certified as a trainer. Written test is created by GOAL. Standard of live fire performance is roughly 50% of what the State Police have to meet. (I personally worry about anyone daily carrying who couldn't meet that very low bar.)
2) AWB remains so they can say they have it but it's changed to "No full auto weapons modified down to semi after initial manufacture in a manner reversible with the restoration of removed parts". 'Feature' tests and 'named weapons' prohibitions are removed except as preceding and remove the crap solely related to appearance. Follow federal minimum overall length and barrel length standards for non-tax-stamped SBR rifles.
3) SBRs, Suppressors etc. congruent with federal law (tax stamp etc.) but with an extra State penalty for possession without a stamp.
4) All private sales/transfers of firearms must be done through an FFL with 4473 background check and transaction reporting and a nominal (capped say, $30?) fee for FFL processing.
5) EFA-10 process and serialization requirement remains for 'home made (80% lowers etc.)' guns with stiff penalties for 'unregistered' after 7 days. (Assembly with a 4473'd serialized receiver does not constitute 'manufacture'.)
6) State penalties for full-auto, bump stock, forced reset mods without a federal tax stamp as a 'machine gun'.
7) Tolerate a "Red Flag" law but with stiff penalties for those who falsely make a complaint. Requirements for the return of all firearms confiscated (for up to 60 days without a renewal court proceeding where the 'flagged' can face their accuser) when a 'red flag' is invoked with stiff penalties for lost or damaged firearms held in police custody and requirements to 'male whole' within 30 days.
8) No prohibitions on 'standard capacity' magazines (30 rounds rifle, whatever ships with the model of handgun nationally). 30 Round magazines must be transported locked between home and range or hunting area. (Yeah, I know, but let 'em ban the drums and happy sticks so we can stop having the rest be a pain in the ass. I mean we do correct them from "high capacity" to "standard capacity", so, accept a real world definition of 'standard') Remove prohibitions for LTC holders to carry a pistol while hunting.
9) No more 'roster' but continued prohibitions against guns which are camouflaged to appear as something else or which are under a certain size (say, less than Glock 42/P365 sized to address the the 'Saturday night special" concern) to carry as opposed to collect or use at the range.
10) Transport in cars 'on person' for LTC holders. or in a locked case/out of view trunk and unloaded.
11) Storage in a gun safe of types in 'common use' or in a 'room vault' dedicated to the purpose and only readily accessible but he license holder(s) in the household when the licensee is not at home with the firearm with a mandate to report all lost or stolen firearms. Criminal penalty for gun owners when children in the home gain access to firearms that were not stored properly.
12) Stiffer penalties for possession without a permit, very stiff ones for carrying without a permit.
13) Requirements for licensing turnaround times and renewals with actual teeth so it happens in a consistent and timely manner.
14) Allow 'no guns permitted' signs to carry the force of law with, say, a thousand dollar fine for violation if signage was clearly posted but no loss ior suspension of license for a first offense.
15) Codify blood alcohol level to match that for DUI for carrying while intoxicated.
16) Minimum age for an LTC of 21 except where an employer requires carry.
17) Ban "open carry" except while hunting.


Maybe you hate some or all of these, maybe you too could live with them but, start being ready to think of some bone you can throw so that can still say "MA has some of the strongest gun safety laws in the country' without 'peppering your angus' with those 'strong laws'.

EDIT: The above would pass a Heller/Bruen test btw.

This level of mental retardation is not really surprising since its coming from a 2023er.

The only thing you were on the right track about in this clusterf*** of a post is that unfortunately there is a great chance the Mass Leg will pass something come the Fall. Yes it is a defeatist attitude, but it is Massachusetts ... they are going to pull a couple pieces from HD4420, tone it down a bit and push it through and call it a great compromise between both sides.

 

[Picton]

This level of mental retardation is not really surprising since its coming from a 2023er.

The only thing you were on the right track about in this clusterf*** of a post is that unfortunately there is a great chance the Mass Leg will pass something come the Fall. Yes it is a defeatist attitude, but it is Massachusetts ... they are going to pull a couple pieces from the 4420, tone it down a bit and push it through and say it was a great compromise.

"We sought feedback from all the stakeholders, especially the gun-ownership community. They spoke out with great passion, and to our lasting credit, we listened. See how awesome we are?"

 

[mothybee]

As a certifiable old fart myself I had to laugh when I read this statement. Frankly I had not previously considered my projective non-compliance with any future restrictions on what I consider to be my inalienable Constitutional civil rights to be due to my no longer being alive and available for governmental victimization by legislation. It is the old I am dead that will show them philosophy employed when one is addressing unpalatable increases in governmental interference in the options available to us and choices we can make during the conduct of our daily lives.

She Who Must Be Obeyed will in all likelihood probably outlive me by only 25 or 30 years assuming that she is able to minimize the number of times she is injured during the course of riding large horses and empirically proving that the nanny state has still not been capable, despite its best efforts, of revoking the basic principles of gravity. Wherever I end up when my life reaches the knot in the rope of life woven by the Greek Muses I would like to think that she has the appropriate tools available to her to choose from for the active protection of her life.

My ongoing participation in trying to stem the tide of insipid legislative stupidity is predicated upon the belief that if we do not band together and attempt to interject a modicum of common sense into the entire legislative process now....... then when do we enter the arena of political discourse to fight against the progressive attempts to dismantle all the precepts that this country was originally founded upon? While the arrogance of ignorance may in fact be a wonder to behold it is also true that it makes for demonstrably poor governance.

I guess that my intent is to not only fight for the present but perhaps, more importantly to my way of thinking, to fight for her future available choices. While it is certainly true that the issue, as they say, is in doubt the result of capitulation is all too distressingly encompassing for me to contemplate as an acceptable outcome to the matter at hand.

Remember...... when arriving at the checkout counter asking the clerk if in light of your being a certifiable old person can you qualify for a senior citizen discount of some sort is considered a social faux pas of the first rank......especially when one is in a grocery store.......or so I have been reliably informed........repeatedly.....

I Have no idea what you're saying but, love how you say it.

 

[Dench]

I can't rationalize the cost of even one machine gun at current prices. But where I was going with my suggestions re: machine guns was: They are currently 'banned' in MA. They are currently heavily restricted under the NFA. We cede nothing letting them keep the current laws and win something by explicitly tying them to federal law. If somebody successfully challenges the NFA, problem solved.

For someone who has so much to say they sure don't seem to understand whats going on around them.

Take a step back. A big one. And figure out what it is that you have such strong opinions about. Then come back.