SKS or AR15?

[Len-2A Training]

Kevin is mostly right. BATFE says it is a Fed Felony to do ANY private transactions out of state!

 

[PatMcD]

My mistake. I was thinking of here in Maine. I forget how different the laws are down there.

You are correct that it is a Federal felony to privately sell a firearm to a resident from another state. That being said, I see no stipulation that you HAVE to keep records of who you sell it to. Yes, it is foolish NOT to do so, but not illegal. If I'm wrong here, PLEASE somebody set me straight.

 

[Scrivener]

There is no such thing as a paperless SKS unless someone built the reciever [sic] in their basement or the gun was imported so long ago that the original FFL burned the records. If any federal licensee imported it or manufactured it, someone has paper on it, somewhere, which invariably leads to somebody. -Mike

FFLs don't burn records. When an FFL ceases to hold the license, the bound books are turned into BATFE.

 

[drgrant]

FFLs don't burn records. When an FFL ceases to hold the license, the bound books are turned into BATFE.

That isn't completely true. There is a retention limit for how long the FFL has
to keep the paperwork. I think it's on the order of 20+ years, though, so
you're probably right, for all practical purposes, in most cases. But for FFLs
that have been in business for a -really- long time, records destruction is a possibility.

-Mike

 

[Jose]

That being said, I see no stipulation that you HAVE to keep records of who you sell it to. Yes, it is foolish NOT to do so, but not illegal. If I'm wrong here, PLEASE somebody set me straight.

Pat, you are correct in that residents of free states are not required to keep track of who they sell firearms to and who they buy them from.

I disagree with you on the claim of foolishness to not record private sales. If we all were to keep records of who we sell guns to, the antis win.

 

[PatMcD]

Pat, you are correct in that residents of free states are not required to keep track of who they sell firearms to and who they buy them from.

I disagree with you on the claim of foolishness to not record private sales. If we all were to keep records of who we sell guns to, the antis win.

I know what you are saying, however, if THE LAW comes knocking, asking about a firearm used in a crime that was last papered to you (the generic "you"), they want to know how you dispensed of that firearm and to whome. If you say "some guy", they may not have a legal reason to do anything to you, but you may get extra attention in the future. They do NOT like straw purchases.

I know all of this because it happened to me. Got a call from a Lewiston, ME detective about a Kel-Tec P32 that was last papered to me. Lewiston PD took it off some kid they arrested. Wanted to know who I sold it to. I told them it certainly wasn't that kid (and it wasn't). I knew the guy I sold it to (known him casually for a couple years) and told them his name. I don't know if he sold the kid the gun or what. Not my problem.
Some may call that squealing or being a stool-pidgeon. I don't care. I'm not taking any heat for somebody else's actions.

 

[Scrivener]

That isn't completely true. There is a retention limit for how long the FFL has to keep the paperwork. I think it's on the order of 20+ years, though, so you're probably right, for all practical purposes, in most cases. But for FFLs that have been in business for a -really- long time, records destruction is a possibility.

-Mike

Once AGAIN, this is not a question of the FFL retaining records; it is BATFE keeping the records of those FFLs who have relinquished their licenses. Those records are NOT "burned."

 

[Jose]

I know what you are saying, however, if THE LAW comes knocking, asking about a firearm used in a crime that was last papered to you (the generic "you"), they want to know how you dispensed of that firearm and to whome. If you say "some guy", they may not have a legal reason to do anything to you, but you may get extra attention in the future. They do NOT like straw purchases.

Pat, I would certainly cooperate with law enforcement to the best of my ability and recollection, but I am not about to do the antis' work by keeping track of who I've sold what.

I've sold several firearms in the past, and to be honest I cannot even recall who those buyers were. They were purchases made by others from me through gunsamerica.com. I did not keep record of who they were or who their FFL was.

As far as BATF or local cops, I am not intimidated by them. I know they can lie their ass off to bully and intimidate. I also know I can and will lawyer up quick, even though I have nothing to hide. The 5th and the 4th Amendments were put in the BoR for good reason.

I stop considering police my "friend" when I am being questioned for any reason.

 

[PatMcD]

Pat, I would certainly cooperate with law enforcement to the best of my ability and recollection, but I am not about to do the antis' work by keeping track of who I've sold what.

Not quite sure I follow how protecting myself from potential legal entanglements helps the anti's. If I know anything about a firearm used in a crime or about a crime that involves a firearm, I'm going to do anything I can to assist law enforcement (I'm pretty sure you would also, if I read you correctly). I guess I think it's my responsibility to keep track of any firearm that has come into my possession by writing down the serial #'s and who I sold it to. 99.9% of the time a firearm sold is going to stay on the good side of the Law, but it's the other .1% that I want to protect myself from.

That being said, if The Man comes knocking, asking me for all the above-mentioned information on all my guns, he's going to get the ol' "the-dog-ate-my-homework" routine. No way am I going to give that information out.

Obviously we have gone way off topic here, my fault as much as anybody's.

 

[kevin9]

I stop considering police my "friend" when I am being questioned for any reason.

Hmmm, how do you expect police to solve any crimes or track down criminals if they don't talk to people, or the people they talk to are not helpful within their rights. If one wants the police to fight crime then one might want to consider helping them do so.

 

[Jose]

I'm going to do anything I can to assist law enforcement (I'm pretty sure you would also, if I read you correctly).

You did read me correctly.

I guess I think it's my responsibility to keep track of any firearm that has come into my possession by writing down the serial #'s and who I sold it to.

That's where you and I disagree. The antis want every single firearm transaction between private persons to be recorded for the .gov's convenience. I will not help them.

 

[Jose]

Hmmm, how do you expect police to solve any crimes or track down criminals if they don't talk to people, or the people they talk to are not helpful within their rights. If one wants the police to fight crime then one might want to consider helping them do so.

When you are being questioned by the police on an official matter where you are directly involved, the police do not have YOUR best interests in mind. Only you do.

ATF: May we come in?

Me: No.

ATF: Did firearm X belong to you at one time?

Me: Yes.

ATF: Do you still own firearm X?

Me: No.

ATF: What happened to it?

Me: I sold it.

ATF: To whom, and when?

Me: I don't remember, it was too long ago.

ATF: You are supposed to keep a record of such sales.

Me: No, I am not. Is there anything else you need? Otherwise this conversation is over.

 

[kevin9]

When you are being questioned by the police on an official matter where you are directly involved, the police do not have YOUR best interests in mind. Only you do.

ATF: May we come in?

Me: No.

ATF: Did firearm X belong to you at one time?

Me: Yes.

ATF: Do you still own firearm X?

Me: No.

ATF: What happened to it?

Me: I sold it.

ATF: To whom, and when?

Here is where we part company. My response would be:

Kevin: "Why are you asking?"

If the answer comes back: "It was used in the commision of a crime"

Then my answer would be to provide whatever information I had on the buyer. Most any other answer would continue as you did.

I expect the police to at least try to solve crimes and apprehend criminals. It is only logical then that I be willing to help them do that, as long as peoples' rights are not being violated.

Me: I don't remember, it was too long ago.

ATF: You are supposed to keep a record of such sales.

Me: No, I am not. Is there anything else you need? Otherwise this conversation is over.

 

[Jose]

Kevin, where did I say I would lie to them?

I do not make it a practice to write down to whom I sell a firearm. That is PRECISELY what gun controllers want.

If I remember, I tell them. If I don't, I tell them I don't. If they press the issue, they get shut down.

 

[kevin9]

Kevin, where did I say I would lie to them?

You didn't, and I didn't accuse you of lying either.

I do not make it a practice to write down to whom I sell a firearm. That is PRECISELY what gun controllers want.

If I remember, I tell them. If I don't, I tell them I don't.

Fair enough, although that's not what came across in your vignette. I got the sense that when it comes to the ATF or police your memory of firearms transactions is measured in nanoseconds. Sorry if that was not the impression you meant to convey.

I still think it is in my best interest to keep a record of what I sell to people, be they guns or anything else. The circumstances under which I would release those records are very limited.

 

[Len-2A Training]

IANAL, but if the investigation of a particular crime weapon lands at your door, if you don't give the police info on who you sold it to, WHY should they believe you? I would suspect that if you "shut them down" they will come back with a warrant to search your house, bring you into the PD for interrogation and may actually arrest you (not sure of that, one of our lawyers can comment) for obstruction of justice (might not stick but will cost you thousands to get out of it).

If you convince them that you are trying your best to be helpful, they are likely to thank you and proceed to the next stage without tossing your house in the process.

Since MA requires FA-10s for everything and both buyer and seller get to keep one, it should be simple to report this.

 

[Jose]

IANAL, but if the investigation of a particular crime weapon lands at your door, if you don't give the police info on who you sold it to, WHY should they believe you?

Don't know. Don't care. I will not make shit up to tell them what they want to hear if I don't remember who I sold a gun to. Why is that so hard to understand?