Manual safety or not? 365X

[dcmdon]

Yes to every single thing you said except for looking into your holster, which satisfies insurance companies, but is detrimental to gun fighting.

I disagree in 99% of cases.

You shouldn't be holstering unless the threat is either neutralized or has decided to "de-escalate".

Remember, we aren't cops. We aren't re-holstering to climb a fence.

I"m not saying that learning to reholster without looking isn't something to learn and practice at some point. But we have people here who probably don't know how to draw a firearm correctly and an OP who is choosing to carry on an empty chamber. So let's get the basics first.

Looking at the holster to confirm there isn't anything in the way is a good habit have, ESPECIALLY if you are carrying in the oh-so-trendy appendix position.

 

[dcmdon]

No, SIG reliability has definitely been questionable since they started using consumers to beta test. I’m cautiously optimistic they worked out issues, and I’d trust a 365 at this point, but your concerns are warranted

Two words. Ron Cohen.

Mr Cohen made Kimber profitable and ruined their quality in the process.
He has made Sig fantastically successful and the quality seems to have suffered.

Mr Cohen's guiding vision seems to be that quality must be (barely) good enough,, and no better.

 

[dcmdon]

View attachment 855953
This is what it looks like, just big enough to easily disengage it on the draw. My shooting times are the same as without a safety, makes absolutely no difference. If I didn’t have a manual safety, I would go with the Tyrant Intellifire trigger. It’s a sig after all, who knows when it’ll go off. I can’t risk shooting off my dick when holstering, especially when I’m using a light bearing holster with an oversized trigger guard.

You shouldn't be pointing the gun at your dick when you reholster. Regardless of where you put your holster, you should always do it so that at no point is the gun pointed at any part of your body.

I took a class within the last 5 years and the instructor allowed appendix but he said that he worked with a zero strikes rule. Within the first half hour, he took the appendix holsters away from 2 people.

 

[dcmdon]

If you remove the safety from a p365, is it absolutely necessary to change the grip module?

No. Purely cosmetic preference.

You may be able to trade your module with some weirdo who wants to add a safety to their gun. You cold probably even sell them the safety for a few bucks.

 

[Grendizer138]

I disagree in 99% of cases.

You shouldn't be holstering unless the threat is either neutralized or has decided to "de-escalate".

Remember, we aren't cops. We aren't re-holstering to climb a fence.

I"m not saying that learning to reholster without looking isn't something to learn and practice at some point. But we have people here who probably don't know how to draw a firearm correctly and an OP who is choosing to carry on an empty chamber. So let's get the basics first.

Looking at the holster to confirm there isn't anything in the way is a good habit have, ESPECIALLY if you are carrying in the oh-so-trendy appendix position.

How do you look your gun into your holster in the dark?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Darkslide]

You shouldn't be pointing the gun at your dick when you reholster. Regardless of where you put your holster, you should always do it so that at no point is the gun pointed at any part of your body.

I took a class within the last 5 years and the instructor allowed appendix but he said that he worked with a zero strikes rule. Within the first half hour, he took the appendix holsters away from 2 people.

I never intentionally point at my body when holstering, but I’ve taken classes where you have to holster in complete darkness, or holster the gun while sitting down (in which case the holster itself is pointed against my nuts). Mistakes can happen. Got me really nervous because I didn’t have a manual safety.

 

[Grendizer138]

I never intentionally point at my body when holstering, but I’ve taken classes where you have to holster in complete darkness, or holster the gun while sitting down (in which case the holster itself is pointed against my nuts). Mistakes can happen. Got me really nervous because I didn’t have a manual safety.

Appendix carry is not my thing, but it’s safe if trained properly; same principles apply. I am curious about under what circumstance you would reholster while sitting. Did the instructor have you bring your hips up? I guess it can be done, but I think I’d be nervous too, and that’d be the end of my appendix carry experiment

 

[LT5]

Two words. Ron Cohen.

Mr Cohen made Kimber profitable and ruined their quality in the process.
He has made Sig fantastically successful and the quality seems to have suffered.

Mr Cohen's guiding vision seems to be that quality must be (barely) good enough,, and no better.

The good old six sigma approach.
The product sucks, the people are miserable and turnover is high but, hey profits are up slightly.

 

[Andy in NH]

I never intentionally point at my body when holstering, but I’ve taken classes where you have to holster in complete darkness, or holster the gun while sitting down (in which case the holster itself is pointed against my nuts). Mistakes can happen. Got me really nervous because I didn’t have a manual safety.

What was the name of the class and who was the instructor?

 

[Grendizer138]

The good old six sigma approach.
The product sucks, the people are miserable and turnover is high but, hey profits are up slightly.

Damn, do I want a Spear LT tho!

 

[Andy in NH]

How do you look your gun into your holster in the dark?

Thanks in advance.

The more important questions might be:

Why did the gun come out in the dark?

Who/what got shot in the dark?

 

[Darkslide]

Appendix carry is not my thing, but it’s safe if trained properly; same principles apply. I am curious about under what circumstance you would reholster while sitting. Did the instructor have you bring your hips up? I guess it can be done, but I think I’d be nervous too, and that’d be the end of my appendix carry experiment

We were doing sitting drills, the point was to simulate shooting in a car or restaurant where maneuverability was limited. There were chairs line up in a row and we switched between front, left, and right facing. I leaned back as much as I could to reholster without pointing the muzzle at the guy in front of me. I could’ve stood up to reholster, but better to train the way I would shoot in that situation.

What was the name of the class and who was the instructor?

Jerry Gallo’s low light class. It was awesome, after that class I put a weapon light on all my carry guns. Shooting in complete darkness is a valuable experience, everyone should try it.

 

[dcmdon]

I never intentionally point at my body when holstering, but I’ve taken classes where you have to holster in complete darkness, or holster the gun while sitting down (in which case the holster itself is pointed against my nuts). Mistakes can happen. Got me really nervous because I didn’t have a manual safety.

No class should ever require you to holster in such a way where you need to point a loaded gun at yourself in order to complete a drill.

If the class requires holstering while sitting, then it should also require you to use a strong side OWB holster. Requiring or even allowing students to reholster into an AIWB holster while sitting is so incredibly irresponsible, negligent, thoughtless, stupid, it boggles my mind.

Please out this "instructor" so others can avoid him/them.

It's time to name names.

 

[Darkslide]

No class should ever require you to holster in such a way where you need to point a loaded gun at yourself in order to complete a drill.

If the class requires holstering while sitting, then it should also require you to use a strong side OWB holster. Requiring or even allowing students to reholster into an AIWB holster while sitting is so incredibly irresponsible, negligent, thoughtless, stupid, it boggles my mind.

Please out this "instructor" so others can avoid him/them.

It's time to name names.

You think every gun fight starts and ends in your favor? What if you were at an amusement park strapped on a ride and some mass shooter opens fire on your kids? This is what training is for, to prepare you for shit that could happen, but doing so in a safe environment.

And to be clear, the muzzle is not intentionally pointed at my body but how the f*** are you suppose to know for sure when you can’t see? I highly recommend the class, and if you think training for real world situations is stupid, then don’t sign up. It’s an invite only class anyways, if you have no skill or aren’t safe, you will be refused. Stick to your beginner classes.

 

[dcmdon]

We were doing sitting drills, the point was to simulate shooting in a car or restaurant where maneuverability was limited. There were chairs line up in a row and we switched between front, left, and right facing. I leaned back as much as I could to reholster without pointing the muzzle at the guy in front of me. I could’ve stood up to reholster, but better to train the way I would shoot in that situation.


Jerry Gallo’s low light class. It was awesome, after that class I put a weapon light on all my carry guns. Shooting in complete darkness is a valuable experience, everyone should try it.

He should have required you to get out of the car/up from the chair to reholster. Absolute lunacy.

Psst. Hint. you mentioned training like you shoot. You don't re-holster unless the threat is neutralized or has decided to go somewhere else.

If seated in a chair, stand up or go to kneeling and reholster.

If in a car, put the gun under your thigh and drive away. Once a safe distance away, get out and re-holster.

Though realistically, if you've just had a defensive gun use and you are safely away, you should be calling 911 and waiting for the cops to arrive, at which point might make sense to clear the gun and not have the gun on your person. situation dependent. You balance the risk of the aggressor returning vs getting shot by the cops.

 

[dcmdon]

You think every gun fight starts and ends in your favor? What if you were at an amusement park strapped on a ride and some mass shooter opens fire on your kids? This is what training is for, to prepare you for shit that could happen, but doing so in a safe environment.

Please realize that I am not criticizing you. Not even a little.

I'm criticizing the instructor.

So let's run through your scenario. You are on a ride and a mass shooter opens fire on your kids.

What next? You draw and return fire. You keep shooting until he either is neutralized or disengages. You keep the gun pointed in a safe direction until you can stand up. Or if the ride has stopped and cops are there, you clear it and put it on the bottom of the ride because now you biggest risk is getting shot by the cops.

Seriously. Run the scenario out. I struggle to come up with a situation where re-holstering while seated without concocting the most out of this world situation.

 

[dcmdon]

The first rule of firearm safety.

1) Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to destroy.

 

[dcmdon]

One other thing. You deserve respect for seeking out advanced training. Chances are you are better prepared than 90% of other gun owners. Seriously. I have total respect for you.
First rule of taking shooting classes is check your ego at the door. I do this.

It means putting trust in your instructor. At the pace things go a bad instructor can put students into a dangerous sitiuation.

You were let down by your instructor.

If he didn't want to give you time to stand up to reholster, he should have had you run it from low ready.

 

[M1911]

One other thing. You deserve respect for seeking out advanced training. Chances are you are better prepared than 90% of other gun owners. Seriously. I have total respect for you.
First rule of taking shooting classes is check your ego at the door. I do this.

It means putting trust in your instructor. At the pace things go a bad instructor can put students into a dangerous sitiuation.

You were let down by your instructor.

If he didn't want to give you time to stand up to reholster, he should have had you run it from low ready.

Agreed. Get instruction from multiple instructors. Getting training from multiple instructors will give you alternate perspectives. Try what they say, but reserve your judgment. If it doesn't work for you or doesn't make sense, then discard it.

 

[Supermoto]

We were doing sitting drills, the point was to simulate shooting in a car or restaurant where maneuverability was limited. There were chairs line up in a row and we switched between front, left, and right facing. I leaned back as much as I could to reholster without pointing the muzzle at the guy in front of me. I could’ve stood up to reholster, but better to train the way I would shoot in that situation.


Jerry Gallo’s low light class. It was awesome, after that class I put a weapon light on all my carry guns. Shooting in complete darkness is a valuable experience, everyone should try it.

Wait, there was someone in front of you while shooting?

 

[Darkslide]

The first rule of firearm safety.

1) Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to destroy.

This is the first rule that is stressed in every class.

One other thing. You deserve respect for seeking out advanced training. Chances are you are better prepared than 90% of other gun owners. Seriously. I have total respect for you.
First rule of taking shooting classes is check your ego at the door. I do this.

It means putting trust in your instructor. At the pace things go a bad instructor can put students into a dangerous sitiuation.

You were let down by your instructor.

If he didn't want to give you time to stand up to reholster, he should have had you run it from low ready.

The instructor specifically said to keep the muzzle down, and sweep it outside of your leg so you don’t shoot yourself, then holster. Because most people were carrying at the hip. He also said not to attempt anything we’re not comfortable with. If anyone does anything unsafe, they get stopped. We’re all big boys here.

The appendix guys could stand up if they want, I had a choice and I chose to practice the worst case scenario, which is to reholster while sitting in a car preparing to drive away. Sure, I can put my gun on the passenger seat or console, but I want the gun under my control. I’m not gonna put it under my thigh, that’s an ND waiting to happen.

 

[Darkslide]

Wait, there was someone in front of you while shooting?

We were shooting to the side. Pull gun out, shoot to the left/right, just like you were sitting in a car. Obviously don’t muzzle sweep the guy in front of you, and don’t sweep the gun over your leg, while in that class. But in a real world situation, if drawing from the hip, it’s faster to sweep the gun over your leg. You just can’t do it in class.

 

[Darkslide]

Anyways, we’re derailing off course

My argument was that a manual safety has its uses, such as when holstering a gun while seated when carrying appendix. Especially with a beer belly, which pushes the holster out and points the muzzle at your dick or thigh. Just gotta train with the safety.

 

[dcmdon]

Sorry. But there are simply too many opportunities to screw up. Drawing appendix with someone seated in front of you is difficult.

If I was running that class, I might have you practice the draw with a blue gun a bunch of times before running it hot. Then when running it hot, there wouldn't be anyone in the front seat.

Again, rule number 1.

I once took a class where we were stacked up going into a room. We had run it many times with double checked cleared carbines.

As I turned I swept the lower legs of the guy in front of me. After we ran it, I approached the guy and told him what had happened.

Just to set the scene, every person in that class was shipping off to guard the US embassy in Yemen except for me and another guy who was a dentist.
After I told the guy, who had more bad assery in his little finger than I have in my whole body, he said.

"Was the safety on?". I answered yes.
"Was your finger outside the trigger guard". I answered yes.
His response was "big boy rules. " don't sweat it.

He then explained that in the military, you take more risks in training because, you have to balance the risk of training vs the risk of not being prepared for the scenario.
He was ok with it. I beat myself up mercilessly for it for the next several days. (maybe even now)

So I get the risk/reward balance.


For him, that risk was worth it. For me, someone who would most likely never in his life find himself clearing a room with 4 of his friends with rifles, it wasn't worth it.

 

[dcmdon]

Anyways, we’re derailing off course

My argument was that a manual safety has its uses, such as when holstering a gun while seated when carrying appendix. Especially with a beer belly, which pushes the holster out and points the muzzle at your dick or thigh. Just gotta train with the safety.

Or if you are driving and you have a beer gut and can't holster without pointing away from yourself, maybe you carry in a different holster for the day. I think that's the real answer. If you will be spending much time in a car that day, carry OWB at 3:00. Comfy, fast, and safe.

A famous NY detective whose name eludes me used to talk about how fast an Ankle holster was while seated in a car on a stake out. Go ahead, mime it. Its really fasts and safe to reholster if you are careful.

And dont' laugh, but a chest rig is also very fast, comfy and safe if you are driving.

 

[G4Y4HK]

Here you go. The angle is obscured, but it doesn't appear that the officer was messing around with the gun -- it remained holstered. SIG says that the gun wasn't not fully seated in the holster. I think SIG's statement is not necessarily correct -- the fact that the Safariland holster's hood wasn't engaged doesn't mean that the gun wasn't fully seated.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0

Love the comment "So it's fine when Holosun does shake awake, but SIG does it and everyone loses their minds."

 

[Supermoto]

So, shooting in complete darkness, with people infront of your draw and reholstering and doing stuff you were nervous about.

Sounds like a clusterf*** of a class

 

[Darkslide]

Sorry. But there are simply too many opportunities to screw up. Drawing appendix with someone seated in front of you is difficult.

If I was running that class, I might have you practice the draw with a blue gun a bunch of times before running it hot. Then when running it hot, there wouldn't be anyone in the front seat.

Again, rule number 1.

I once took a class where we were stacked up going into a room. We had run it many times with double checked cleared carbines.

As I turned I swept the lower legs of the guy in front of me. After we ran it, I approached the guy and told him what had happened.

Just to set the scene, every person in that class was shipping off to guard the US embassy in Yemen except for me and another guy who was a dentist.
After I told the guy, who had more bad assery in his little finger than I have in my whole body, he said.

"Was the safety on?". I answered yes.
"Was your finger outside the trigger guard". I answered yes.
His response was "big boy rules. " don't sweat it.

He then explained that in the military, you take more risks in training because, you have to balance the risk of training vs the risk of not being prepared for the scenario.
He was ok with it. I beat myself up mercilessly for it for the next several days. (maybe even now)

So I get the risk/reward balance.


For him, that risk was worth it. For me, someone who would most likely never in his life find himself clearing a room with 4 of his friends with rifles, it wasn't worth it.

I understand. There’s a safe way to do it, and there’s an optimal way. The safe way is to have nobody sitting in front of the shooter, but then only 1 person can go at a time. In a 20 person class, that’s not doable. Jerry is a great instructor and he’s been doing this for a long time, and there’s never been an accident. If it was dangerous, he wouldn’t do it.

On another note, where did you take this room clearing class? Room clearing is off limits at this range because so many things can go wrong.

 

[Darkslide]

So, shooting in complete darkness, with people infront of your draw and reholstering and doing stuff you were nervous about.

Sounds like a clusterf*** of a class

No… these are 2 separate drills. Don’t get it confused, nobody is standing in front of you when you’re shooting. One drill is to draw, shoot, and reholster in complete darkness. Another drill is sitting down and shoot to the side (not in total darkness).

 

[G4Y4HK]

The Israelis are carrying it wrong. What good is a mag if the bullets are sideways lol