Police respond to report of shooting at pro-Israeli protest in Newton

pastera said:
But you weren't the vet on the ground, dazed but a surprise attack that was ongoing.
The review is not from an armchair length but from the perspective of the victim under the conditions of the attack and the knowledge of the situation at that time.

Given the actions of the vet immediately after, the benefit of doubt goes to him for immediately rendering aid.
That shows he was in control and acting at least somewhat rationally.
Click to expand...
Him saying he was mentally impaired from the fall sounds like a valid legal defense to me.
 
Buck F said:
That's very different from saying it was mutual combat or that Hayes instigated and that the attack was somehow justified. It was not mutual combat and there's zero evidence that Hayes said a word much less instigated anything.

Watching the video form the comfort of our couches, with the benefit of regular combat training, being in better physical condition than Hayes, sure you and I can decide that in that situation our lives probably would not have been in danger but that's not the standard here.
Click to expand...
I suspect it was mutual combat. Regardless if it was or wasnt as ive already said plenty im just not seeing the need.

Note that does not mean i think he should ne prosecuted.
 
I posted this over in the IDF thread:

In regards to Newton, and the guy that got attacked being charged.

That’s why you don’t call the police, leave the scene quickly, don’t answer questions and don’t go to the station ‘for a talk’.

There is no advantage to being ‘socially responsible’

Why is ‘Defund the Police’ gaining traction? This is why.

*****************************************************************************

The Newton Police Facebook Page is looking pretty negative for them. If you do business with anyone in Newton, stop and tell them why.
 
Dench said:
Falls are very difficult to catagorize in terms of predictable outcomes. Some falls can and will kill. And then identical looking falls result in bruising. Its all hard to say.

While i dont think his life was in danger i also think he had plenty of help. If this guy was the worlds lamest 47 year old and got jumped solo id 100% get that he feared fir his life. We've probably all been there. Getting attacked out of the blue solo is horrifying.

I hope he gets off. I dont want him in jail for it. I just dont think it was necessary. I wish him the best in court.
Click to expand...
Again the standard cannot include the assistance of others since even police are not responsible for protecting you unless you are in custody.
The shot seemed to have been fired about the same time it was obvious the others were intervening - the vet had already committed to firing well before that comprehension came to into mind.

And the standard is not that damage will occur but that risk is substantial.
www.merriam-webster.com

Legal Definition of GREAT BODILY INJURY

physical injury suffered by the victim of a violent crime that causes a substantial risk of death, extended loss or impairment of a body part or function, or permanent disfigurement : physical injury that is more serious than that ordinarily suffered in a battery… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com

Substantial Risk Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

Substantial risk means a strong possibility, as contrasted with a remote or even a significant possibility, that a certain result may occur or that a certain circumstance may exist. It is risk of
definitions.uslegal.com definitions.uslegal.com

Substantial risk means a strong possibility, as contrasted with a remote or even a significant possibility, that a certain result may occur or that a certain circumstance may exist
Click to expand...
 
GM-GUY said:
I posted this over in the IDF thread:

In regards to Newton, and the guy that got attacked being charged.

That’s why you don’t call the police, leave the scene quickly, don’t answer questions and don’t go to the station ‘for a talk’.

There is no advantage to being ‘socially responsible’

Why is ‘Defund the Police’ gaining traction? This is why.

*****************************************************************************

The Newton Police Facebook Page is looking pretty negative for them. If you do business with anyone in Newton, stop and tell them why.
Click to expand...
Guy got shot… there is 0% chance police weren’t going to get involved.
 
Dench said:
I suspect it was mutual combat. Regardless if it was or wasnt as ive already said plenty im just not seeing the need.

Note that does not mean i think he should ne prosecuted.
Click to expand...
Not sure how you suspect mutual combat, there's zero on the video to indicate that and everything to indicate an unprovoked attack, he tackled the guy from behind FFS.
 
pastera said:
Again the standard cannot include the assistance of others since even police are not responsible for protecting you unless you are in custody.
The shot seemed to have been fired about the same time it was obvious the others were intervening - the vet had already committed to firing well before that comprehension came to into mind.

And the standard is not that damage will occur but that risk is substantial.
www.merriam-webster.com

Legal Definition of GREAT BODILY INJURY

physical injury suffered by the victim of a violent crime that causes a substantial risk of death, extended loss or impairment of a body part or function, or permanent disfigurement : physical injury that is more serious than that ordinarily suffered in a battery… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com

Substantial Risk Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

Substantial risk means a strong possibility, as contrasted with a remote or even a significant possibility, that a certain result may occur or that a certain circumstance may exist. It is risk of
definitions.uslegal.com definitions.uslegal.com
Click to expand...
Im not exclusively talking about if its just legal. There are tons of things that are illegal that i think should be legal and then the ither way around.

Was he legally in the right? Hope so. Was it a productive reaction? I don't think so.

Hell, remember that nonsense trayvon shooting here in FL? He had zimmerman in mount and was pummeling him. And even then he had a really hard to justifying that legally here in FL. Was he right to shoot him? Zero doubt.
 
Dench said:
I suspect it was mutual combat. Regardless if it was or wasnt as ive already said plenty im just not seeing the need.

Note that does not mean i think he should ne prosecuted.
Click to expand...
Were it mutual combat why would the vet have his back to the guy?

Currently there is no evidence that the vet instigated a fight by loading or taunting the guy nor did he make a physical move towards the guy.

I get the dont write a check your ass can't cash - however the proper response doesn't rise to a sprinting tackle of a guy a decade older
A well deserved bitch slap - okay.
A controlled takedown or hold including a lightly applied choke hold - can be an appropriate level of percussive instruction
But any level of violent action requires the other person to have stepped over a line, and the only one stepping in the video is the dude who FA&FO.
 
Dench said:
Im not exclusively talking about if its just legal. There are tons of things that are illegal that i think should be legal and then the ither way around.

Was he legally in the right? Hope so. Was it a productive reaction? I don't think so.

Hell, remember that nonsense trayvon shooting here in FL? He had zimmerman in mount and was pummeling him. And even then he had a really hard to justifying that legally here in FL. Was he right to shoot him? Zero doubt.
Click to expand...
The only reason there was any question there was "because black"
 
pastera said:
Were it mutual combat why would the vet have his back to the guy?

Currently there is no evidence that the vet instigated a fight by loading or taunting the guy nor did he make a physical move towards the guy.

I get the dont write a check your ass can't cash - however the proper response doesn't rise to a sprinting tackle of a guy a decade older
A well deserved bitch slap - okay.
A controlled takedown or hold including a lightly applied choke hold - can be an appropriate level of percussive instruction
But any level of violent action requires the other person to have stepped over a line, and the only one stepping in the video is the dude who FA&FO.
Click to expand...
Gentlemen, i just arrived in Orlando. We will have to continue the debate at a later date!
 
not new guy said:
It certainly sounds like a lawyer’s advice, maybe to undercut statements he may have given to the cops immediately following the incident.
Click to expand...
hope he wasn’t flapping his gums. “I feared for my life” and “here is my weapon” are all that should come out of your face at that point, followed by “I will provide a full statement once I have consulted with my attorney”.
 
In God We Trust said:
I tend to agree with most of what you have posted here.

I’m a big dude but I’m pretty out of shape and have some medical issues and older. I could potentially have a heart attack if I got in a fist fight. There is a huge difference in danger between myself and someone else my age who does CrossFit or trains grappling.

This may come down to a defense based on disparity of force. If say Royce Gracie attacked me and I didn’t know who he was, I would be wrong to shoot him. If I knew who he was, I’d be justified in smoking him. That’s how I was trained anyway back in the day. Things are different in the post George Floyd world though.
Click to expand...
You racist, there’s a big difference between talk shit and settling a score. i’ll put it this way. If I walked up to Mike Tyson started making fun of his voice… that’s mutual combat. I wouldn’t go do something like that.

I should’ve used deadly force so many times. When you do shit like that. You don’t sleep at night. Other times who cares? When it comes down to it you really don’t care if you’re on camera or not.
 
Dench said:
I suspect it was mutual combat. Regardless if it was or wasnt as ive already said plenty im just not seeing the need.

Note that does not mean i think he should ne prosecuted.
Click to expand...

If mutual combat.

Vet 1, soy boi 0

Don’t bring a fist to a gun fight.

No discussion of allowed weapons had happened.
 
Love Machine said:
And by posting about it on the interwebs, you got yourself a solid discoverable murder conviction.
Click to expand...
I still dont understand this. Someone one attacks me and I use deadly force to defend myself. For the sake of argument, its an airtight, textbook case of self defense. If I flee the scene, Im a murderer but if I stay Im allowed to walk free. In either case the circumstances are the same regardless of my actions AFTER it happened.
 
Of course that was an abuse of process prosecution because the State's Attorney proceeded even though no one who investigated the case thought that he should be prosecuted.

It was a persecution, not a prosecution.

Dench said:
Im not exclusively talking about if its just legal. There are tons of things that are illegal that i think should be legal and then the ither way around.

Was he legally in the right? Hope so. Was it a productive reaction? I don't think so.

Hell, remember that nonsense trayvon shooting here in FL? He had zimmerman in mount and was pummeling him. And even then he had a really hard to justifying that legally here in FL. Was he right to shoot him? Zero doubt.
Click to expand...
 
Dench said:
I never said he wasnt an aggressor. I said from the video i dont think he needed to be shot.
Click to expand...
First, the law applies a subjective standard, it’s what the victim thinks. But reality is they can only know what the victim says and what person is going to say they shot an attacker but didn’t feel threatened. So it becomes applied as an objective standard with a relatively low threshold of could have resulted in serious harm or death.
So good shoot
 
headednorth said:
I still dont understand this. Someone one attacks me and I use deadly force to defend myself. For the sake of argument, its an airtight, textbook case of self defense. If I flee the scene, Im a murderer but if I stay Im allowed to walk free. In either case the circumstances are the same regardless of my actions AFTER it happened.
Click to expand...
Get some use of force training so you start to understand it.
 
Love Machine said:
Get some use of force training so you start to understand it.
Click to expand...
OK lets say I have a perfect understanding and I do everything correctly from a legal standpoint. I then flee the scene. If it was a textbook defensive shooting, why would I be charged just because I left the scene?
 
"The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion. "

not new guy said:
Why in the world would you leave the scene where you were perfectly justified in killing the attacker? The state has to investigate the killing. Fleeing the scene is about the stupidest thing you could do in that situation.
Click to expand...
 

Similar threads

  • Poll Poll
Which gun to shoot for complete gun n00b?
2
Replies
56
Views
745
Cuz
Cuz
Chicopee woman’s son shot several times, fired back at shooter, police say
Replies
12
Views
480
HorizontalHunter
HorizontalHunter
Shooting reported at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin: Police
3 4 5
Replies
143
Views
4K
HARRYM
HARRYM
Overheard at the airport
4 5 6
Replies
154
Views
3K
dcmdon
dcmdon
.223 Words of Advice?
3 4 5
Replies
126
Views
2K
dcmdon
dcmdon
Back
Top Bottom